Just Read Batman Knightfall.

[cptfishstick]

So I just read the Knightfall Trillogy in TPB form. For those of you that don't know, this was a story originally spaning all the Bat titles in 1993 (or so), in which batman's back was broken by Bane. Batman then gave his cowl to Azrael to be batman in his absence. Azrael Whups on bane. Bruse Wane recovers, and Has to fight the now insane Azrael to gain his place as batman once again.

Since I didn't have to jump back and forth between titles to get this whole series, and instead read it straight through in 3 massive trades, I avoided some of the hassles others had.

In the end, I quite enjoyed the story. I think the First part, in which batman falls, and the second, in which he suffers Are the strongest of the trillogy. This story wasn't necessarily about Batmans back being broken, but rather his vanity. For the first time he lost. And he lost bad. This had humungous psycological ramifications that took him out of the game as batman for about a year of issues.

I applaud Doug Moench and Chuck Dixon for actually having the balls to have Batman get defeated. Batman has essentially been the most powerfull superhero ever. Sure most people will say "NO, Thats superman!" But seasoned Comic fans will be all to quickly to point out that Batman Wailed on Superman in DKR (not to mention his geriatric state). This defeate by Bane, a villan whom a quite enjoy, really humbled Batman and brought him down to size. Afterall, he has no super-powers, so lets keep him that way.

The replacement by Azrael was an attempt by DC to revitalize the Batman comic by injecting a more cutting edge techno-bats with a more vicious attitude. Of course, I'm assuming they weren't allowed to maintain it because of purists and had to take him down, such is the way with comics. Kyle Rayner is now no longer THE green lantern...merely A green lantern. They returned Hal because of the Fan Outcry. This was also the case with Ben Reilly as Spider-man (to whom I really enjoyed). It's not necessarily that all the fans don't like change. Its just the ones that don't are very vocal about it.

In the end, I thought it was a good story. Not quite Long Halloween, or Year one, but Recomended reading. Not every story has to be revolutionary, just entertaining..and this fit the bill!

[Daniel Jackson]

I liked it as well except for the fact that you had to buy all the different Batman titles that were out at the time. It was a cool story line and including Azrael was a nice addition.

[Dr. Phil Seleski]

While your at it, read the Vengeance of Bane one-shot that they put out. I really liked that story. Can't really remember it all that well but it has something to do with how he grew up in a prison or something?

[lobo]

While your at it, read the Vengeance of Bane one-shot that they put out. I really liked that story. Can't really remember it all that well but it has something to do with how he grew up in a prison or something?

Yep, read Vengence of Bane and the Azrael mini. They are two good reads to get the proper prelude to Knightfall. Knightfall was one my favorite comic stories from those crazy 90s!

[Strannik]

Read all four trades (I'm pretty sure there were four, not three) and loved the story. However...

The replacement by Azrael was an attempt by DC to revitalize the Batman comic by injecting a more cutting edge techno-bats with a more vicious attitude. Of course, I'm assuming they weren't allowed to maintain it because of purists and had to take him down, such is the way with comics.

I heard that Azrael thing was never meant to be permanent. The writers planned the whole arc in an effort to show why this kind of thing would never work with Batman.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Regarding Kyle Rayner, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's upset that DC brought Hal back. I'm younger then most comic book fans seem to be, and to me, Kyle was THE definitive Green Lantern (though John Stewart was pretty cool, too). It doesn't help that Ron Marz, who created the character, didn't get to tell the "final" story he wanted to tell.

[whetteon]

Read all four trades (I'm pretty sure there were four, not three) and loved the story. However...

The replacement by Azrael was an attempt by DC to revitalize the Batman comic by injecting a more cutting edge techno-bats with a more vicious attitude. Of course, I'm assuming they weren't allowed to maintain it because of purists and had to take him down, such is the way with comics.

I heard that Azrael thing was never meant to be permanent. The writers planned the whole arc in an effort to show why this kind of thing would never work with Batman.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Regarding Kyle Rayner, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's upset that DC brought Hal back. I'm younger then most comic book fans seem to be, and to me, Kyle was THE definitive Green Lantern (though John Stewart was pretty cool, too). It doesn't help that Ron Marz, who created the character, didn't get to tell the "final" story he wanted to tell.

Kyle will always be THE Green Lantern. Why? Because of all the other Green Lanterns he was the one I could best relate too. He was human with human flaws. He tried hard to fit in with the JLA, he fought toughier crises then Hal ever fought and he wasn't knocked out in the first few rounds like Hal use to always be (read his stuff from the 70's and you'll know what I mean). Screw you people who had to have Hal back. Bunch of whiners. Hal's interesting now but you know they will freak it up in about 1 year's time.

[cptfishstick]

To me, the Definative Green Lantern is, and always will be, John Stewart. Why? Well, hes just the coolest one! To me, he has always been the most Lanterny of all Lanterns. Best of all, I've seen his personality change and grow over the years, and since thats how most people are, its extremley interesting!

When I first learned of Green Lantern, Kyle was at the helm. I didn't really know anything about Hal untill a year or so ago. So for me, Hal's the new guy. I really liked Kyle as the Lantern, he was an interesting fit. Plus, he had the best Lantern costume

With Ben Reilly and Spider-man...well, lets just say, bringing back Peter Parker in my mind was a bad move. Sure, Peter Parker was the original, but his story was done. Over the years you saw him grow from a teen to an adult. He Took Responsibility for his actions. He Married the woman he loved, and he was going to have a baby with her. Thats his story! Happily ever after. And what a story too! It was an era, an epic, the greatest marvel story of all. They should have left it there, because Spidey would continue in other hands. He was replaced by his clone, Ben Reilly. This was the logical next step, because technically the replacement was still Peter Parker. The only difference was he wasn't married, and had very little experience with the villans of the last 20 years. That means that readers could experience the new (but still same old)Spidey juggling a relationship and learning the villans from scratch. Peter Parker could have gone down in history as being the first Major Super Hero Story to have ended Happily!

But no. Fans B!#3$'ed and Moaned that Peter wasn't Spidey so what did they do. Yup, they killed Ben, and brought back the Green Goblin, and then Killed MJ's Baby. Yeah...talk about the worst way to bring things back. I'm still angry about it all. And just as it was in the Green Lanterns case, Ben Reilly had the coolest Spidey costume.

[tcolli]

Knightfall was a great story, Azreal mini a great story, Vengeance a fantastic story, and Kyle was my preferred Green Lantern too.

I guess I am trying to say I agree with everyone about everything in this thread!

[Rai-fan]

While I stopped reading after Batman 500 (in disgust, mainly), I really enjoyed the whole prelude & story (Batman 488-on), etc. The idea of him having to go through his entire rogue's gallery was wonderful, esp. since they took their time with the build-up to the story.

And if you haven't read the Sword of Azrael mini, check it out. Solid detective story (I epecially loved the first few pages of #1, where Batman's analyzing the remains of Azrael's vest/body armor that failed to save him), and early Quesada artwork, before it got all distorted (Daredevil: Father-style).

In fact, I think Sword of Azrael may have been Quesada's 2nd DC work after The Ray mini.

[Daniel Jackson]

Knightfall was a great story, Azreal mini a great story, Vengeance a fantastic story, and Kyle was my preferred Green Lantern too.

I guess I am trying to say I agree with everyone about everything in this thread!

Except for the Kyle part. I'm a Hal Jordan fan myself.

[whetteon]

Here's something for you to noodle over. When Hal was removed from the title it was due to the fact that the book had *SQUEE* poor sells. When they recently revamped the book and effectively made Kyle a second string Green Lantern by replacing him the book was one of the top 20 sellers. My conclusion is that Hal fans are fair weather fans. They like to say they love him but won't actually buy his title...

In 5 years we'll have Kyle back.

[Daniel Jackson]

Hmm... have you checked the back issue prices on Rebirth, Whett? I think Hal is doing just fine.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Knitghfall actually wasn't bad, as far as multi-part stories go...it's also the very last Batman story I followed 'new'.

It starts with Legends of the Dark Knight #16-20, by the way.

God, remember when Vengeance of Bane was a $25 book? Or Azrael #1 was $20?

And the best Green Lantern is Guy Gardner. Duh.

[whetteon]

Hmm... have you checked the back issue prices on Rebirth, Whett? I think Hal is doing just fine.

Well of course the new stuff is doing well because everyone wants to see what's going to happen. Early 90's the title wasn't doing well and so they made Hal go crazy (bad choice but no use crying over it now) and then everyone was buying it up and it hit the top of the charts.

The real question is how well does the title do once a year goes by from the "big event". Currently I'm still buying Green Lantern because I'm interested in the new Hal and what he will do. But if he goes back to being uninteresting I'm going to drop it faster then Micheal Jackson's pants when a child enters the room.

[tcolli]

My LCS has limited copies of Rebirth but TONS of overstock of Green Lantern 1. This may say people are buying the rebirth for the story and to see what happens but aren't that interested in the monthly title.

[Daniel Jackson]

That might just be due to over speculation on the LCS's part due the higher back issue prices for Rebirth.

[tcolli]

Its possible but they also ordered TONS of Omac Project, Villians United, Rann-Thanagar War and they all sold out. Maybe this is because it is a big crossover but we will have to see how Green Lantern does.

[cptfishstick]

Yeah, the LCS I work at still has plenty of Green Lantern #1's for sale. Which is weird for a #1. We sold out of Omac, Ran Thagarrin, HOM, etc, which were ordered in equall amounts. People just aren't buzzing about the new GL.

[Rai-fan]

It starts with Legends of the Dark Knight #16-20, by the way.

God, remember when Vengeance of Bane was a $25 book? Or Azrael #1 was $20?

And the best Green Lantern is Guy Gardner. Duh.

Ehh--C'mon now. It didn't really _start_ w/ LOTDK 16-20. That's the same as folks who say Cable's first appearance was X-men 201. But "Venom" was a cool story.

Yeah---I remember when Sword/Azrael sets were in $45-60 range. Course, that was back when Magnus 12 was a $100+ book

[Redtrax]

Vengeance of Bane was great, but Azrael as Batman c'mon
that sucked big time, almost as much as Superman's death and replacing him with four...uhm...Supercharacters.

[Daniel Jackson]

Vengeance of Bane was great, but Azrael as Batman c'mon
that sucked big time, almost as much as Superman's death and replacing him with four...uhm...Supercharacters.

I wonder who's lame idea that was. I really liked the whole Death of Superman/Funeral for a friend storyline, but The Return was just awful.

[Todd Luck]

I applaud Doug Moench and Chuck Dixon for actually having the balls to have Batman get defeated. Batman has essentially been the most powerfull superhero ever. Sure most people will say "NO, Thats superman!" But seasoned Comic fans will be all to quickly to point out that Batman Wailed on Superman in DKR (not to mention his geriatric state). This defeate by Bane, a villan whom a quite enjoy, really humbled Batman and brought him down to size. Afterall, he has no super-powers, so lets keep him that way.

The replacement by Azrael was an attempt by DC to revitalize the Batman comic by injecting a more cutting edge techno-bats with a more vicious attitude. Of course, I'm assuming they weren't allowed to maintain it because of purists and had to take him down, such is the way with comics. Kyle Rayner is now no longer THE green lantern...merely A green lantern. They returned Hal because of the Fan Outcry. This was also the case with Ben Reilly as Spider-man (to whom I really enjoyed). It's not necessarily that all the fans don't like change. Its just the ones that don't are very vocal about it.

Of course Miller also had Batman get his *SQUEE* kicked and put in critical condition two issues before he "wailed" on Superman (which isn't much of an accomplishment, my mother could beat Superman if she had kryptonite ). Batman got defeated a lot before Knightfall. I could go for pages listing all the issues he got beat. They just spent an issue or two dealing with it instead of 60-80 issues in Knightfall/quest/end!

And, no, they never intended a second-rate nut case introduced solely for that plotline (who wore one of the worst costumes I've ever seen) to be the permanent Batman. The whole point of the plotline was for Bruce to recover and reclaim the Batman mantle. The same thing with the Death of Superman, which probably helped inspire this plotline, and the replacement of Wonder Woman that came later (when they put Diana in biker shorts -shudder-).

DC's other replacements on the "secondary" characters like Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Dr. Fate and others where meant to be permanent (or atleast as permanent as it can be in a comic line where events are dictated by that months sales figures). But none of them had any sort of popularity (in sales) except for Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern and quickly fell to the wayside. Of course, Kyle has suffered the same fate in the last year or so.

Of course for me the damage was already done and I haven't touched the majority of their line since the mid-90's.

[tcolli]

Batman may have been beaten before but not defeated. I think you missed the point of the storyline. He wasn't just physically beaten, he was emotionally and psychologically destroyed. He had his back broken, not just a few wounds or internal injuries that Alfred could fix. And more than that, it was in his own home. It was a good story, read it again.

[cptfishstick]

couldn't have said it better myself tcolli!

[Todd Luck]

Batman may have been beaten before but not defeated. I think you missed the point of the storyline. He wasn't just physically beaten, he was emotionally and psychologically destroyed.

Kinda like Batman vs. Predator or Blind Justice? Even the incident I mentioned in Dark Knight Returns was as much a psychological and emotional defeat and rehabilitaion as it was a physical one. Knightfall/quest/end explored it in far more detail but that's not neccessarily what I pick up a Batman comic to read about. Especially when it last for a freaking year!