Shadowman #10 discussion

[bygranddesign]

I thought it was brilliant 9/10

Great narrative in a historical setting, well told love story between Marius and Sandria

Nico (master Darque) is just flat out obsessed and evil ... And he comes off great as a terrorfying villain. I wish we got a little more depth about how he came to be so evil but its a small gripe .. He fulfilled what he was meant to come across as in this story. Someone to be feared.

Sandria is such a fantastic character, I really hope to see her alive and in the present day or just more stories with her at the center


Ok.... In regards to the end, Still trying to process what happened

Looks as though Sandria sacrificed her baby with Marius in order to create the Shadowman

Which was definitely unexpected

Very cool. Such a fun read. Well written, ambitious storytelling, with a lot of interesting and meaty things to chew over.

Huge praise and Kudos to Justin Jordan who delivered a brilliant issue that will stand along side #0 as one of the best of the relaunched universe

[hunter_peterson]

I think she didn't sacrifice her baby- she turned it into the Shadowman loa by tailoring it's soul into that form. Maybe she used some of the souls from the plantation sacrifice to fuel that? Anyway: she made her baby into the Shadowman and it's lived on in her lover's descendants ever since.

And this issue was really great. Great follow up to the zero issue. I think Jordan's handle on the Darques is just much better than his grasp on Jack. I could read many more issues focusing on them under his pen. I do hope Sandria isn't dead at the end of this, though. That was slightly ambiguous...

[bygranddesign]

I think she didn't sacrifice her baby- she turned it into the Shadowman loa by tailoring it's soul into that form. Maybe she used some of the souls from the plantation sacrifice to fuel that? Anyway: she made her baby into the Shadowman and it's lived on in her lover's descendants ever since.

Yep I agree.
Sacrifice in that she used the baby to create the loa. So it's a sacrifice in that sense.

[bygranddesign]

And this issue was really great. Great follow up to the zero issue. I think Jordan's handle on the Darques is just much better than his grasp on Jack. I could read many more issues focusing on them under his pen. I do hope Sandria isn't dead at the end of this, though. That was slightly ambiguous...

Agreed. I'd love to see JJ on a Darque Miniseries

[bygranddesign]

The art wasn't nearly as good as #0

But it was strong overall especially in the first half with it getting a little sketchy in spots at the end

5 different pencillers and different inks and colorists can make it feel a bit disjointed ... But the narrative was so strong it held it together enough to not feel like too much of an issue.

[swtor1091]

10/10 this and the zero issues are the best shadowman issues makes me sad that jacks story wasn't nearly as good....

[hunter_peterson]

And this issue was really great. Great follow up to the zero issue. I think Jordan's handle on the Darques is just much better than his grasp on Jack. I could read many more issues focusing on them under his pen. I do hope Sandria isn't dead at the end of this, though. That was slightly ambiguous...

Agreed. I'd love to see JJ on a Darque Miniseries

Darque Passages?

And yeah, the art wasn't De La Torre good, but it WAS remarkably consistent and high quality in light of how many hands were involved. I give them points for that.

I suppose it's a kind of sacrifice, in the way that you mean, but I don't think the baby died at all. I think it was dying at birth and she saved it by freeing its soul to live in it's father's body... which is oddly gross? Magic eww!

[bygranddesign]

And this issue was really great. Great follow up to the zero issue. I think Jordan's handle on the Darques is just much better than his grasp on Jack. I could read many more issues focusing on them under his pen. I do hope Sandria isn't dead at the end of this, though. That was slightly ambiguous...

Agreed. I'd love to see JJ on a Darque Miniseries

Darque Passages?

And yeah, the art wasn't De La Torre good, but it WAS remarkably consistent and high quality in light of how many hands were involved. I give them points for that.

I suppose it's a kind of sacrifice, in the way that you mean, but I don't think the baby died at all. I think it was dying at birth and she saved it by freeing its soul to live in it's father's body... which is oddly gross? Magic eww!

Yeah but is it living inside him as an innocent baby ... or as a soul twisted to become a weapon? Has it become twisted energy that doesn't really resemble a human soul anymore? Perhaps a clever parallel to what Darque was doing in the last arc ... twisting souls into mindless monsters under his command.

I wonder if Sandria to this day has the loa/shadowman/jack under her command?

One thing that sort of leaves me curious to this point ...is the lack of Nettie. I thought for sure she would be one of the Darque's slaves and perhaps she would have been instrumental in summoning the Loa at some point. Maybe she teaches Sandria about the loa spirit? The Loa spirit is hatian voodoo. Maybe she will still be introduced at some point ... but just surprised she wasn't part of this origin story.

[JustinJordan]

I wish we got a little more depth about how he came to be so evil

The Master Darque origin story basically has three narrative parts to it - there's his childhood, where he gets broke for the first time, and then his experiences in the world, which lead him down a darker path, and then his 'betrayal' by Sandria, which more or less creates the Master Darque we're familiar with (and his overall philosophy that this world was the creation of a sadistic god, always trending towards perversity).

In an ideal world, I'd have actually liked to have done an issue on each of those chunks. What you've seen in the series, obviously, is the first and last part of it, with the middle bits sketched out in this issue. That said, this issue is a lot more about Marius and the Shadowman than Master Darque, so I focused on that, since we got a pretty heavy dose of Nicodemo in the zero issue.

And thanks!

[JustinJordan]

Perhaps a clever parallel to what Darque was doing in the last arc ... twisting souls into mindless monsters under his command.

Yup.

Well, sort of - what Darque was doing to those souls when he was creating the Eaters was a twisted version of what Sandria did to create the Shadow Loa. That's been sort of the underlying thing about Darque - for all his power and intelligence, he was just mimicking what other people had done, for the most part, trying to prove (subconsciously) that he could do it better.

So his father tried to make a connection to Lyceum - Darque went to Lyceum (and wrecked the place)

Sandria created the Shadow Loa - Darque created the Eaters.

The Abettors formed around Shadowman - Darque created the Bretheren.

God created this world (in Darque's mind) - Darque would tear it down and create a better one.

Eh, what the heck, since I'm rolling.

I don't think I actually had a better grasp of the Darques than Jack - I think I was better at showing their personality than I was Jack's. One thing that I feel like was definitely a mistake in retrospect was not giving Jack an internal monologue from the start, and that's all on me.

Jack was by design a quiet and reserved guy. It builds out from his history - he and Helena moved from place to place, so all he really had was her. When she died, he bounced from foster home to foster home. So Jack internalized his world - he carried it inside him and didn't make a lot of human connections. So when he did, they meant a lot to him, even if he was bad at expressing it - so despite only have a fairly shallow relationship with Anne/Alafair, he was really, really hurt by it.

Likewise, when he meets people who tell him there's a world that he fits into and that there's people who have been looking for him, an abandoned and lonely kid, his entire life, he really, really wants that to be true and wants to make that connection. And while he's a pretty pleasant guy, he doesn't really know HOW to make those connections.

This was also meant to contrast with Jack as Shadowman, who is a somewhat different character than just Jack. The Loa has a mind and personality of its own, and it will dominate the host if it can. Not out of malice, just because of force of personality. And in a way, that's kind of fun, like being drunk. So Jack as Shadowman is wilder, more impulsive, free. But also more violent and vicious.

All of which would be wonderful, were it actually IN the book.

I mean, it is, to an extent. When I was writing Jack, all of that was the basis of how I wrote the guy and why he was doing what he was doing. But ultimately, I didn't do the job I'd have liked in getting that across. There are various reasons why I didn't, but they don't really matter in the end. What matters is what gets on the page and is communicated to the readers, and I kind of whiffed it there.

In retrospect, an internal narration would have gone a loooooong way to solving these problems, as would have some more scenes about Jack's past.

[krylox]

Perhaps a clever parallel to what Darque was doing in the last arc ... twisting souls into mindless monsters under his command.

Yup.

Well, sort of - what Darque was doing to those souls when he was creating the Eaters was a twisted version of what Sandria did to create the Shadow Loa. That's been sort of the underlying thing about Darque - for all his power and intelligence, he was just mimicking what other people had done, for the most part, trying to prove (subconsciously) that he could do it better.

So his father tried to make a connection to Lyceum - Darque went to Lyceum (and wrecked the place)

Sandria created the Shadow Loa - Darque created the Eaters.

The Abettors formed around Shadowman - Darque created the Bretheren.

God created this world (in Darque's mind) - Darque would tear it down and create a better one.

Eh, what the heck, since I'm rolling.

I don't think I actually had a better grasp of the Darques than Jack - I think I was better at showing their personality than I was Jack's. One thing that I feel like was definitely a mistake in retrospect was not giving Jack an internal monologue from the start, and that's all on me.

Jack was by design a quiet and reserved guy. It builds out from his history - he and Helena moved from place to place, so all he really had was her. When she died, he bounced from foster home to foster home. So Jack internalized his world - he carried it inside him and didn't make a lot of human connections. So when he did, they meant a lot to him, even if he was bad at expressing it - so despite only have a fairly shallow relationship with Anne/Alafair, he was really, really hurt by it.

Likewise, when he meets people who tell him there's a world that he fits into and that there's people who have been looking for him, an abandoned and lonely kid, his entire life, he really, really wants that to be true and wants to make that connection. And while he's a pretty pleasant guy, he doesn't really know HOW to make those connections.

This was also meant to contrast with Jack as Shadowman, who is a somewhat different character than just Jack. The Loa has a mind and personality of its own, and it will dominate the host if it can. Not out of malice, just because of force of personality. And in a way, that's kind of fun, like being drunk. So Jack as Shadowman is wilder, more impulsive, free. But also more violent and vicious.

All of which would be wonderful, were it actually IN the book.

I mean, it is, to an extent. When I was writing Jack, all of that was the basis of how I wrote the guy and why he was doing what he was doing. But ultimately, I didn't do the job I'd have liked in getting that across. There are various reasons why I didn't, but they don't really matter in the end. What matters is what gets on the page and is communicated to the readers, and I kind of whiffed it there.

In retrospect, an internal narration would have gone a loooooong way to solving these problems, as would have some more scenes about Jack's past.

hey justin. it takes guts to be humble, so and thanks for communicating with your fans. i think most of us always wondered, why the zero issue managed to blow us away, but most of the regular series didn't. at least for me it was like that. while i agree that an inner monologue could have helped, i think the most important thing that was missing, was to show his inner conflict. or have some backstory, like darque had. i had a hard time bonding with the main protagonist - even worse, after #0, i was way more interested in reading about darque than the rather bland jack...

i'm curious - was the more superheroy attitude towards the character and the storytelling your original pitch or something the editorial was looking for?

however, good luck with your next projects!

[bygranddesign]

Perhaps a clever parallel to what Darque was doing in the last arc ... twisting souls into mindless monsters under his command.

Yup.

Well, sort of - what Darque was doing to those souls when he was creating the Eaters was a twisted version of what Sandria did to create the Shadow Loa. That's been sort of the underlying thing about Darque - for all his power and intelligence, he was just mimicking what other people had done, for the most part, trying to prove (subconsciously) that he could do it better.

So his father tried to make a connection to Lyceum - Darque went to Lyceum (and wrecked the place)

Sandria created the Shadow Loa - Darque created the Eaters.

The Abettors formed around Shadowman - Darque created the Bretheren.

God created this world (in Darque's mind) - Darque would tear it down and create a better one.

Eh, what the heck, since I'm rolling.

I don't think I actually had a better grasp of the Darques than Jack - I think I was better at showing their personality than I was Jack's. One thing that I feel like was definitely a mistake in retrospect was not giving Jack an internal monologue from the start, and that's all on me.

Jack was by design a quiet and reserved guy. It builds out from his history - he and Helena moved from place to place, so all he really had was her. When she died, he bounced from foster home to foster home. So Jack internalized his world - he carried it inside him and didn't make a lot of human connections. So when he did, they meant a lot to him, even if he was bad at expressing it - so despite only have a fairly shallow relationship with Anne/Alafair, he was really, really hurt by it.

Likewise, when he meets people who tell him there's a world that he fits into and that there's people who have been looking for him, an abandoned and lonely kid, his entire life, he really, really wants that to be true and wants to make that connection. And while he's a pretty pleasant guy, he doesn't really know HOW to make those connections.

This was also meant to contrast with Jack as Shadowman, who is a somewhat different character than just Jack. The Loa has a mind and personality of its own, and it will dominate the host if it can. Not out of malice, just because of force of personality. And in a way, that's kind of fun, like being drunk. So Jack as Shadowman is wilder, more impulsive, free. But also more violent and vicious.

All of which would be wonderful, were it actually IN the book.

I mean, it is, to an extent. When I was writing Jack, all of that was the basis of how I wrote the guy and why he was doing what he was doing. But ultimately, I didn't do the job I'd have liked in getting that across. There are various reasons why I didn't, but they don't really matter in the end. What matters is what gets on the page and is communicated to the readers, and I kind of whiffed it there.

In retrospect, an internal narration would have gone a loooooong way to solving these problems, as would have some more scenes about Jack's past.

wow. Thank you for the great post and insights JJ.

Yeah, I definitely feel like the inner dialogue of Sandria are big reasons why SM#0 and #10 are some of the most enjoyable issues I have ever read. Jack could have used some of that ... I think it would have helped to connect to the character more but there is no denying the passion that you brought to this title and the mythology you built up over your 11 issues.

Many of us would absolutely love to see a Darque Passages type title one day with you as writer in which maybe you can flesh out that middle narrative which leads to Nico going down that darker path as well as further developing Sandria.

[MoonChild]

Great insight, thanks Justin. I hope we get your alternate #0 issue that explores Jack's Dad (Or was this #10 exactly that?).

[VEI Reborn]

WOW freaking AWESOME issue. Hands down in the top 3 that has been put out by Valiant so far.

Interesting enough that 2 out of the top 3 IMO have been Shadowman books.


So amped by this issue that all I can say is for now

[blujay]

I hope to see you doing more work for valiant in the future JJ, I'm going to miss this level of quality

[tchalla8]

Perhaps a clever parallel to what Darque was doing in the last arc ... twisting souls into mindless monsters under his command.

Yup.

Well, sort of - what Darque was doing to those souls when he was creating the Eaters was a twisted version of what Sandria did to create the Shadow Loa. That's been sort of the underlying thing about Darque - for all his power and intelligence, he was just mimicking what other people had done, for the most part, trying to prove (subconsciously) that he could do it better.

So his father tried to make a connection to Lyceum - Darque went to Lyceum (and wrecked the place)

Sandria created the Shadow Loa - Darque created the Eaters.

The Abettors formed around Shadowman - Darque created the Bretheren.

God created this world (in Darque's mind) - Darque would tear it down and create a better one.

Eh, what the heck, since I'm rolling.

I don't think I actually had a better grasp of the Darques than Jack - I think I was better at showing their personality than I was Jack's. One thing that I feel like was definitely a mistake in retrospect was not giving Jack an internal monologue from the start, and that's all on me.

Jack was by design a quiet and reserved guy. It builds out from his history - he and Helena moved from place to place, so all he really had was her. When she died, he bounced from foster home to foster home. So Jack internalized his world - he carried it inside him and didn't make a lot of human connections. So when he did, they meant a lot to him, even if he was bad at expressing it - so despite only have a fairly shallow relationship with Anne/Alafair, he was really, really hurt by it.

Likewise, when he meets people who tell him there's a world that he fits into and that there's people who have been looking for him, an abandoned and lonely kid, his entire life, he really, really wants that to be true and wants to make that connection. And while he's a pretty pleasant guy, he doesn't really know HOW to make those connections.

This was also meant to contrast with Jack as Shadowman, who is a somewhat different character than just Jack. The Loa has a mind and personality of its own, and it will dominate the host if it can. Not out of malice, just because of force of personality. And in a way, that's kind of fun, like being drunk. So Jack as Shadowman is wilder, more impulsive, free. But also more violent and vicious.

All of which would be wonderful, were it actually IN the book.

I mean, it is, to an extent. When I was writing Jack, all of that was the basis of how I wrote the guy and why he was doing what he was doing. But ultimately, I didn't do the job I'd have liked in getting that across. There are various reasons why I didn't, but they don't really matter in the end. What matters is what gets on the page and is communicated to the readers, and I kind of whiffed it there.

In retrospect, an internal narration would have gone a loooooong way to solving these problems, as would have some more scenes about Jack's past.

Big time props for coming out here and facing the crowd. Especially knowing the reaction to Shadowman has been someone mixed to date. And I appreciate you lending us some insight into your thinking behind the character...what worked...what didn't. I think that really helps us understand its not an easy thing to take a concept that you have in your mind and then relay it to your readers. It's not as cut and dried as we might always think.

Thanks for your hard work!

[jmatt]

A fantastic issue. A perfect follow up to #0 in every way.

And I agree with Justin's retrospection that an inner monologue would have really helped flesh out Jack's confusion, ambiguity and overall personality.

I'm going back to my LCS tomorrow to pick up a few extra copies, it's an extremely critical issue for the title.

Thanks, Justin.

[BugsySig]

I loved the issue. This and the #0 were both wonderful narratives that delivered a somber yet ominous tone that really fit what many of us wanted to see in the "main" story. I wonder if the Volume 3 TPB will contain issues #0 & 10-12? That might be a way to get new fans on board as they all serve (or will serve) as stand-alone issues in many ways and would be a great introduction to the characters.

I alo applaud Justin for coming on here to comment. From day 1 he has interacted with us here and given great insight into his process and the characters. No matter my mixed feelings about the series thus far, I hold him in extremely high regard. I hope he does work for VALIANT again in the future, perhaps on a project he can cut loose on like those two stand out issues. I have planned on picking up Luther Srode for a while now and will support his future endeavors because he is a talented writer and stand up guy.

[bygranddesign]

A fantastic issue. A perfect follow up to #0 in every way.

And I agree with Justin's retrospection that an inner monologue would have really helped flesh out Jack's confusion, ambiguity and overall personality.

I'm going back to my LCS tomorrow to pick up a few extra copies, it's an extremely critical issue for the title.

Thanks, Justin.

Yeah, I know that the new writer will want to do his own thing, create his own spin and niche with the character. But Sandria and Master Darque are forever intwined with Shadowman and hopefully that will be explored further down the line.

[bygranddesign]

I loved the issue. This and the #0 were both wonderful narratives that delivered a somber yet ominous tone that really fit what many of us wanted to see in the "main" story. I wonder if the Volume 3 TPB will contain issues #0 & 10-12? That might be a way to get new fans on board as they all serve (or will serve) as stand-alone issues in many ways and would be a great introduction to the characters.

Yeah it would make great sense to have 0 and 10 be the first two issue of the 3rd trade with 11, 12 and maybe 13x. That should be a great trade to try and convert someone to valiant.

I alo applaud Justin for coming on here to comment. From day 1 he has interacted with us here and given great insight into his process and the characters. No matter my mixed feelings about the series thus far, I hold him in extremely high regard. I hope he does work for VALIANT again in the future, perhaps on a project he can cut loose on like those two stand out issues. I have planned on picking up Luther Srode for a while now and will support his future endeavors because he is a talented writer and stand up guy.

Agree. Well said.

[VEI Reborn]

A fantastic issue. A perfect follow up to #0 in every way.

And I agree with Justin's retrospection that an inner monologue would have really helped flesh out Jack's confusion, ambiguity and overall personality.

I'm going back to my LCS tomorrow to pick up a few extra copies, it's an extremely critical issue for the title.

Thanks, Justin.

Yeah, I know that the new writer will want to do his own thing, create his own spin and niche with the character. But Sandria and Master Darque are forever intwined with Shadowman and hopefully that will be explored further down the line.

This is a terrible time for a new writer and it worries me a great deal.

First, no offense to Justin as I have met him a few times and LOVE some of the stuff he has put out but now that the book is finally getting somewhere he is leaving? Whether by choice or not [have zero clue why] it down right sucks. I dont mean to cry about it but I have been chugging along feeling big potential for this character but just havent seen it [where the no offense comes in]. Now we are smoking hot we gotta roll the dice with someone new.....

Ugh, I hope it turns out well I really do but man it has me worried.

Justin, I hope to see you back at Valiant soon!

[bygranddesign]

Quick observation and a question

The loa spirit created from the soul of an albino baby gives further depth and meaning to the look of Shadowman. The white face is more than just a cool look - its an imprint of where the loa came from. That's my take anyway.

And a lingering question... Should we assume that the next Shadowman after Marius whose name is Julien(just skimmed through the first issue to find that name it's mentioned as the Shadowman after Marius just before it attaches to Jack) is a son conceived from Marius and Sandria later on?

Is Jack connected to Sandria and therefore Master Darque through actual bloodlines?? Or is he just connected to the Darques through the spirit of the loa which has both bloodlines with the soul of the baby?

[sonicdan]

...

[pixierosa]

Sorry all about the post above - didn't realize Dan was signed in on my computer...

My two cents:

This was an incredible issue. Loved seeing the origin, the historical aspects, and the foibles of human nature, even in someone as twisted as Darque. The reason he pursues his sister, cannot accept the reality around him, and even his god complex all boils down to human weakness.

Justin, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you should have done an inner monologue with Jack. Sandria is very interesting and important to we readers, and much of that has to do with being able to see the world through her eyes. Great job on this book -very strong storytelling.

[Savant]

The art wasn't nearly as good as #0

But it was strong overall especially in the first half with it getting a little sketchy in spots at the end

5 different pencillers and different inks and colorists can make it feel a bit disjointed ... But the narrative was so strong it held it together enough to not feel like too much of an issue.

When I first started reading, and realized De La Torre wasn't the artist (Wasn't he originally advertised as the artist for this issue?), I was somewhat worried......But, I felt the art stood just fine. The book was solid, both via the story & art.

10/10 this and the zero issues are the best shadowman issues makes me sad that jacks story wasn't nearly as good....

The only Shadowman issues I truly liked were #5, 0, and 10......All 3 were top-notch. If the entire series was as good as those 3 issues, Shadowman would be my favorite Valiant title hands-down.

Mr. Jordan certainly has a handle on the Darques. I'd definitely be in for a Darque Passages limited series written by him.