Justin Jordan leaves Shadowman with issue #10

[400yrs]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

It may be that he wrote the character as they wanted him to write it. Someone had to accept the pitch, plot, storylines, etc. in other words, to me, this was more of an editorial blunder than a writing problem.

I only read the first three issues and #6, but my problem was that it read like a common super hero book much more so than any other valiant book and to me, Shadowman was the least like that in the original and probably still should be.

I do agree with everyone else that the zero issue was one of the best vei books.

[krylox]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

It may be that he wrote the character as they wanted him to write it. Someone had to accept the pitch, plot, storylines, etc. in other words, to me, this was more of an editorial blunder than a writing problem.

I only read the first three issues and #6, but my problem was that it read like a common super hero book much more so than any other valiant book and to me, Shadowman was the least like that in the original and probably still should be.

I do agree with everyone else that the zero issue was one of the best vei books.

totally agree with what you say. also read the first two issues, dropped it right away, picked it up after #0, about to drop it again...
it feels and read like a generic dc-like 3rd stringer book. now that you mention the editorial influence, i know where i got that dc-feeling from..

[The Dirt Gang]

Didn't it start out with both Jordan and Zircher on writing duties? Maybe that was part of the problem.

[Shadowman99]

I'm not really sure what to think about this announcement.

On one hand I'm not sure it's the best time for JJ to leave, as it seemed to me that he's got the Shadowman ship halfway through clubhauling (See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clubhauling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and the series was really looking like it was finally starting to become the kind of quality book that we're all hoping it can be. Having said that, we all know that Valiant work 3/4 months ahead of what's on the shelf in the calendar month, so this current arc has (probably) already been written and finished, and therefore a new arc is a good point for a new writer to pick up the series. However, I can't help but wonder that the series would have benefitted from JJ's continued presence as writer, at least to the point where the book was going strongly.

On the other hand, perhaps JJ just isn't the right writer for the book. Someone stated that he may have been writing based heavily on editorial requirement which is one thing, and my previous statement certainly isn't appropriate if that's the case, but if not then perhaps a new writer on the book could be the thing that revitalises the series and leads to improvement. We'd better hope that's the case, now that the book's getting a new writer regardless.

And I'm glad to hear that it was an agreeable split between JJ and Valiant. I think he's done what he could for Shadowman and I think he at least deserves credit for trying to patch up the holes in the boat.

[hunter_peterson]

I'm a little sad that just as Jordan was getting into gear properly that he's leaving the book, but at least there's the possibili of his getting a book that fits him better at Valiant later. He said he did a Prophet-like Rai pitch, right? Hmm...

But as to the new writer... Zub seems likely, but I would LOVE Ales Kot or Justin Hale Fialkov to take this book over. Both are awesome, largely mistreated by the big two and would work fantastically with the who,e concept of Shadowman. I would literally faintgasm if either were the new writers (of any Valiant book, but especially this one)!

[BugsySig]

Didn't it start out with both Jordan and Zircher on writing duties? Maybe that was part of the problem.

I think that was the first issue. Zircher was actually the one discussing Shadowman with VEI first, brought up Jordan and Warren told him they had received a pitch from JJ. I don't think the 3 mixed well. As was said, the second arc, minus Zircher's influence, was much better than the first.

The other problem is Warren said early on that Shadowman was VEIs "superhero" book, which never sat well with me. Shadowman should be horror-noir. I think JJ was moving in that direction, but maybe that wasn't his or VEIs ultimate vision for the book and thus the split.

Or perhaps the guy is just a little overwhelmed with multiple projects right now (and DC likely pays better)? I hope JJ chimes in at some point since he has always been very open and forthright here on the boards with us, and I think we all--despite anyone's negative feelings about the book--respect him for that.

[The Dirt Gang]

The other problem is Warren said early on that Shadowman was VEIs "superhero" book, which never sat well with me. Shadowman should be horror-noir. I think JJ was moving in that direction, but maybe that wasn't his or VEIs ultimate vision for the book and thus the split.

This is a good point and what I think makes Shadowman #0 work so well. It's horror-noir and not superhero. I'd like to see Cullen Bunn take a stab at Shadowman. I've read a little of The Sixth Gun and it has a vibe that I think would be appropriate for Shadowman. I do with JJ well. I've heard nothing but good things about him as a person and #0 shows that he clearly has a lot of talent.

He said he did a Prophet-like Rai pitch, right? Hmm...

Where did you hear this? That would be interesting. I'm a huge fan of Prophet and have thought it would be interesting to see what Brandon Graham might do with a lesser Valiant future property like Psi-Lords. I think I'd want Rai to be a little more grounded. VH1 pre-Unity future books are some of my favorite. It always made the VH1 universe seem so epic and fleshed out.

[BugsySig]

The other problem is Warren said early on that Shadowman was VEIs "superhero" book, which never sat well with me. Shadowman should be horror-noir. I think JJ was moving in that direction, but maybe that wasn't his or VEIs ultimate vision for the book and thus the split.

This is a good point and what I think makes Shadowman #0 work so well. It's horror-noir and not superhero. I'd like to see Cullen Bunn take a stab at Shadowman. I've read a little of The Sixth Gun and it has a vibe that I think would be appropriate for Shadowman. I do with JJ well. I've heard nothing but good things about him as a person and #0 shows that he clearly has a lot of talent.

He said he did a Prophet-like Rai pitch, right? Hmm...

Where did you hear this? That would be interesting. I'm a huge fan of Prophet and have thought it would be interesting to see what Brandon Graham might do with a lesser Valiant future property like Psi-Lords. I think I'd want Rai to be a little more grounded. VH1 pre-Unity future books are some of my favorite. It always made the VH1 universe seem so epic and fleshed out.

I remember reading that as well in either an interview with him or it might have been right here on the board.

[leonmallett]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Sorry to disagree, but if "almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman", then what are the facts to back this up? Half a dozen people posting on a message board? Sales relative to the rest of the line?



Personally I WILL be sorry to see Jordan go. I like the book, and I like how it has shaped up. There are things I would like them to do with it, but 8 issues and a zero issue have left me more satisfied than the first 9 issues of X-O Manowar.

It is horses for courses ultimately, but I find it pretty ludicrous when there are sweeping statements to the effect of widespread dislike for the book, when on balance the facts may not support such statements.

EDITED to be more balanced in tone.

[lorddunlow]

Maybe a chart would help? Anyone know where Charty is?

[cavemold]

say what?!!! Aw man. . Whelp. Ill see who replaces him.

[MoonChild]

have to agree with the majority here. I think Shadowman was just not a good fit for Justin. I really hope we do get his other 0 issue. It seemed as interesting as the 0 they went with. I sure do miss me some bob hall right about now. Even image/apperarance wise, this new shadowman just didn't do it for me so much (minus the 0 issue).

[krylox]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Sorry to disagree, but if "almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman", then what are the facts to back this up? Half a dozen people posting on a message board? Sales relative to the rest of the line?



Personally I WILL be sorry to see Jordan go. I like the book, and I like how it has shaped up. There are things I would like them to do with it, but 8 issues and a zero issue have left me more satisfied than the first 9 issues of X-O Manowar.

It is horses for courses ultimately, but I find it pretty ludicrous when there are sweeping statements to the effect of widespread dislike for the book, when on balance the facts may not support such statements.

EDITED to be more balanced in tone.

hey leonmallett, it's perfectly cool if you like justin's run. but the reactions in this thread alone show that at least a majority of the valiant hardcore fans are not equally disappointed&sad to see him leave. add to that the not so stellar reviews and, well, the sales...

171. Shadowman (Valiant)

11/2012: Shadowman #1 - 25,048
12/2012: Shadowman #2 - 16,917 (-32.5%)
01/2013: Shadowman #3 - 13,327 (-21.2%)
02/2013: Shadowman #4 - 12,531 (-6.0%)
03/2013: Shadowman #5 - 13,145 (-4.9%)
04/2013: Shadowman #6 - 11,759 (-10.5%)
05/2013: Shadowman #0 - 12,252 (+4.2%)
06/2013: Shadowman #7 - 12,017 (-1.9%)

not too good, right? shadowman 7 was the weakest selling book from valiant in june. with the property being probably their most well-known.

having listed that, it's still perfectly ok to like justin's run and i apologize if my statements were out of line.

[The Dirt Gang]

I wonder what the lowest number a book could sell before VEI pulls it?

I have to agree with whoever said part of the problem is the redesign. I've never been big on the new Shadowman. His new look just didn't work for me.

[BugsySig]

Maybe a chart would help? Anyone know where Charty is?

[BugsySig]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Sorry to disagree, but if "almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman", then what are the facts to back this up? Half a dozen people posting on a message board? Sales relative to the rest of the line?



Personally I WILL be sorry to see Jordan go. I like the book, and I like how it has shaped up. There are things I would like them to do with it, but 8 issues and a zero issue have left me more satisfied than the first 9 issues of X-O Manowar.

It is horses for courses ultimately, but I find it pretty ludicrous when there are sweeping statements to the effect of widespread dislike for the book, when on balance the facts may not support such statements.

EDITED to be more balanced in tone.

hey leonmallett, it's perfectly cool if you like justin's run. but the reactions in this thread alone show that at least a majority of the valiant hardcore fans are not equally disappointed&sad to see him leave. add to that the not so stellar reviews and, well, the sales...

171. Shadowman (Valiant)

11/2012: Shadowman #1 - 25,048
12/2012: Shadowman #2 - 16,917 (-32.5%)
01/2013: Shadowman #3 - 13,327 (-21.2%)
02/2013: Shadowman #4 - 12,531 (-6.0%)
03/2013: Shadowman #5 - 13,145 (-4.9%)
04/2013: Shadowman #6 - 11,759 (-10.5%)
05/2013: Shadowman #0 - 12,252 (+4.2%)
06/2013: Shadowman #7 - 12,017 (-1.9%)

not too good, right? shadowman 7 was the weakest selling book from valiant in june. with the property being probably their most well-known.

having listed that, it's still perfectly ok to like justin's run and i apologize if my statements were out of line.

I'd be remiss if I didn't note that 12k avg sales for a non-Big 2 book is a successful one in today's industry. All of the books currently sit at a level between 10-14k in any given month, which puts VEI's avg sales at 4th behind only the Big 2 and Image. It is by no means in trouble sales-wise.

I don't think VEI should even start worrying about a book until it slips below 10k (which has yet to happen for any book) and shouldn't consider a cancellation until below 8k. Comparable companies like Boom, IDW and Dynamite regularly print series that sit around 8k and consider those to be safe and successful.

Of course those companies all print at least 3x as many monthlies, which allows for lower sales. As VEI grows and publishes more books, sales per title are bound to decline but they will stay safe as long as the total sales are steady or increase.

Say tuned for July 2013 sales numbers...due this week!

[krylox]

I'd be remiss if I didn't note that 12k avg sales for a non-Big 2 book is a successful one in today's industry. All of the books currently sit at a level between 10-14k in any given month, which puts VEI's avg sales at 4th behind only the Big 2 and Image. It is by no means in trouble sales-wise.

I don't think VEI should even start worrying about a book until it slips below 10k (which has yet to happen for any book) and shouldn't consider a cancellation until below 8k. Comparable companies like Boom, IDW and Dynamite regularly print series that sit around 8k and consider those to be safe and successful.

Of course those companies all print at least 3x as many monthlies, which allows for lower sales. As VEI grows and publishes more books, sales per title are bound to decline but they will stay safe as long as the total sales are steady or increase.

Say tuned for July 2013 sales numbers...due this week!

i'm not sure those companies are the benchmark for valiant.

1. valiant invested some money in buying the properties they use for their publishing venture.
2. they didn't start publishing until recently, but are preparing the whole endeavor for some years, they must have accumulated some costs in this time
3. they put a lot of effort into the promotion of their books, which, imho, is only comparable with marvel or dc regarding quality, output etc. even if they are more clever than their competition, they need quite a staff to do that> more costs
4. they only do work by hire comics, which means the creators working on their comics have to be paid usual market salaries

i'm pretty sure warren & crew don't see valiant's future barely scratching the top100. the whole vei is orchestrated on a much bigger scale than that.

[BugsySig]

I'd be remiss if I didn't note that 12k avg sales for a non-Big 2 book is a successful one in today's industry. All of the books currently sit at a level between 10-14k in any given month, which puts VEI's avg sales at 4th behind only the Big 2 and Image. It is by no means in trouble sales-wise.

I don't think VEI should even start worrying about a book until it slips below 10k (which has yet to happen for any book) and shouldn't consider a cancellation until below 8k. Comparable companies like Boom, IDW and Dynamite regularly print series that sit around 8k and consider those to be safe and successful.

Of course those companies all print at least 3x as many monthlies, which allows for lower sales. As VEI grows and publishes more books, sales per title are bound to decline but they will stay safe as long as the total sales are steady or increase.

Say tuned for July 2013 sales numbers...due this week!

i'm not sure those companies are the benchmark for valiant.

1. valiant invested some money in buying the properties they use for their publishing venture.
2. they didn't start publishing until recently, but are preparing the whole endeavor for some years, they must have accumulated some costs in this time
3. they put a lot of effort into the promotion of their books, which, imho, is only comparable with marvel or dc regarding quality, output etc. even if they are more clever than their competition, they need quite a staff to do that> more costs
4. they only do work by hire comics, which means the creators working on their comics have to be paid usual market salaries

i'm pretty sure warren & crew don't see valiant's future barely scratching the top100. the whole vei is orchestrated on a much bigger scale than that.

In terms of publishing numbers its a fair comparison (though the choices are limited as here are only so many publishers). VEI has several investors and have stated the books are selling above what was expected, enough so that they can survive just on the publishing profits for a while.

I agree they put a lot into promotion, but most of that is free. Interviews, press releases, twitter, Facebook, etc are all free to operate. What money they have invested in promotion has paid off as their books all sell better on average than any other "small" publisher.

Not sure on your point about work for hire. IDW, Boom and Dynamite are almost entirely work for hire as well and have to pay for licensing rights for many of their books...an added cost VEI does not have.

[krylox]

In terms of publishing numbers its a fair comparison (though the choices are limited as here are only so many publishers). VEI has several investors and have stated the books are selling above what was expected, enough so that they can survive just on the publishing profits for a while.

it seems reasonable to induce confidence in the longevity by claiming that. i'm not saying it's not true, just that it's also what you#d expect they would say.

I agree they put a lot into promotion, but most of that is free. Interviews, press releases, twitter, Facebook, etc are all free to operate. What money they have invested in promotion has paid off as their books all sell better on average than any other "small" publisher.

well, in don't believe that anything's free. any kind of visibility on the big news sites is, if not directly paid for, than in exchange for banners etc. that's how they survive. and even facebook and twitter is operated by some staff. add to that stuff like the luge team endorsement, full-returnability on unity #0, print material for the stores (quoting warren from his latest cbr interview: "I think you can tell just by the stores that support us, when you walk in the door, you can see we do probably more, and I'm including Marvel and DC in this, promotional material for stores to use to push our books than anybody else in the industry.") etc

Not sure on your point about work for hire. IDW, Boom and Dynamite are almost entirely work for hire as well and have to pay for licensing rights for many of their books...an added cost VEI does not have.

you're right about the licenses. but valiant did sign some exclusive contracts, which means financial commitment you'd rather expect from the big two. also, boom splits the media rights with the creators.
dynamite on the other hand rarely have big names on their books, especially art-wise (except for their infamous covers)

but of course it's very speculative on my side, i'm giving you that.

[GGSAE]

The other problem is Warren said early on that Shadowman was VEIs "superhero" book, which never sat well with me. Shadowman should be horror-noir. I think JJ was moving in that direction, but maybe that wasn't his or VEIs ultimate vision for the book and thus the split.

This is a good point and what I think makes Shadowman #0 work so well. It's horror-noir and not superhero. I'd like to see Cullen Bunn take a stab at Shadowman. I've read a little of The Sixth Gun and it has a vibe that I think would be appropriate for Shadowman. I do with JJ well. I've heard nothing but good things about him as a person and #0 shows that he clearly has a lot of talent.

He said he did a Prophet-like Rai pitch, right? Hmm...

Where did you hear this? That would be interesting. I'm a huge fan of Prophet and have thought it would be interesting to see what Brandon Graham might do with a lesser Valiant future property like Psi-Lords. I think I'd want Rai to be a little more grounded. VH1 pre-Unity future books are some of my favorite. It always made the VH1 universe seem so epic and fleshed out.

I've read the entire series of TSG, and don't know how Cullen would fit with Shadowman, considering at Oni, I'm sure he has a lot more say with the direction/control of the book. VE1 could take the Drake Sinclair, anti-hero approach, and apply some of that to Shadowman.

[jmatt]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Mmmm, that's overly harsh, imo. I wouldn't call it bland. I think there was just a misstep in the way they tried to unfold the saga. The last few issues have been great.

[leonmallett]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Sorry to disagree, but if "almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman", then what are the facts to back this up? Half a dozen people posting on a message board? Sales relative to the rest of the line?



Personally I WILL be sorry to see Jordan go. I like the book, and I like how it has shaped up. There are things I would like them to do with it, but 8 issues and a zero issue have left me more satisfied than the first 9 issues of X-O Manowar.

It is horses for courses ultimately, but I find it pretty ludicrous when there are sweeping statements to the effect of widespread dislike for the book, when on balance the facts may not support such statements.

EDITED to be more balanced in tone.

hey leonmallett, it's perfectly cool if you like justin's run. but the reactions in this thread alone show that at least a majority of the valiant hardcore fans are not equally disappointed&sad to see him leave. add to that the not so stellar reviews and, well, the sales...

171. Shadowman (Valiant)

11/2012: Shadowman #1 - 25,048
12/2012: Shadowman #2 - 16,917 (-32.5%)
01/2013: Shadowman #3 - 13,327 (-21.2%)
02/2013: Shadowman #4 - 12,531 (-6.0%)
03/2013: Shadowman #5 - 13,145 (-4.9%)
04/2013: Shadowman #6 - 11,759 (-10.5%)
05/2013: Shadowman #0 - 12,252 (+4.2%)
06/2013: Shadowman #7 - 12,017 (-1.9%)

not too good, right? shadowman 7 was the weakest selling book from valiant in june. with the property being probably their most well-known.

having listed that, it's still perfectly ok to like justin's run and i apologize if my statements were out of line.

Numbers are funny and depend on how you look at them; The proportionate drop fro X-O Manowar from#1 to now has been the largest so should that be *more* worrying? (I would say no). That ~1 to June data would only be meaningful in context of the other ongoings arguably.

The VEI books sold in a range of 12k to 14k in June; only 3 books benefited from tie-in bumps. Shadowman sold 90% of the number of the strongest ongoing (X-O Manowar), and 85% of the strongest book (Harbinger Wars). Some other books improved month to month (Harbinger, Bloodshot and especially Archer & Armstrong) while some slipped (X-O Manowar; Harbinger Wars).

The point is that as Bugsysig says, those are not bad numbers for an independent.

One of the VALIANT books will have to be at the lowest end, just as one will have to be at the highest end, but a 10% differential from best to lowest selling ongoings is far narrower than the big two experience, or probably any comparable independent I would expect.

[leonmallett]

I'd be remiss if I didn't note that 12k avg sales for a non-Big 2 book is a successful one in today's industry. All of the books currently sit at a level between 10-14k in any given month, which puts VEI's avg sales at 4th behind only the Big 2 and Image. It is by no means in trouble sales-wise.

I don't think VEI should even start worrying about a book until it slips below 10k (which has yet to happen for any book) and shouldn't consider a cancellation until below 8k. Comparable companies like Boom, IDW and Dynamite regularly print series that sit around 8k and consider those to be safe and successful.

Of course those companies all print at least 3x as many monthlies, which allows for lower sales. As VEI grows and publishes more books, sales per title are bound to decline but they will stay safe as long as the total sales are steady or increase.

Say tuned for July 2013 sales numbers...due this week!

i'm not sure those companies are the benchmark for valiant.

1. valiant invested some money in buying the properties they use for their publishing venture.
2. they didn't start publishing until recently, but are preparing the whole endeavor for some years, they must have accumulated some costs in this time
3. they put a lot of effort into the promotion of their books, which, imho, is only comparable with marvel or dc regarding quality, output etc. even if they are more clever than their competition, they need quite a staff to do that> more costs
4. they only do work by hire comics, which means the creators working on their comics have to be paid usual market salaries

i'm pretty sure warren & crew don't see valiant's future barely scratching the top100. the whole vei is orchestrated on a much bigger scale than that.

Yet you seem to single out Shadowman above all which is slightly confusing.

Marvel and DC cannot be the benchmark yet, as VEI do not publish 50-60 books per month, so that only leaves independents. Image has such a unique publishing model, they are not an easy comparison, so the benchmarks have to be limited by neccessity.

I had massive doubts about VEI and the product they put out. I had doubts that they would publish anything, let alone regularly. They have been hitting their release schedule, have a market share they have developed in less than 18 months to be comparable to well-established publishers, yet that is based on only 7 titles maximum so far. They are building and it will be interesting to see their market share once EW and Unity have established (around issue 3-4).

Despite massive reservations, I would argue that VEI have made only a few mis-steps, but that has been down to some story-telling factors, and nowhere near major stuff in the grand picture.

The point is that despite a handful of commentators (the regular posters on this forum are likely to represent less than 1% of the Shadowman readership, so there is nothing generalisable about comments here, positive or negative), Shadowman is and has been holding up within the line based on most recent sales.

[CallMeBloodshot]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Mmmm, that's overly harsh, imo. I wouldn't call it bland. I think there was just a misstep in the way they tried to unfold the saga. The last few issues have been great.

Hmm and I'd say you're putting it nicely. I'd call it bland. Theres been some good moments but overall the series has done little for me with JJ. De La Torre is a master though. Anyway, that's my opinion.

[krylox]

it's a good thing the mgmt didn't wait for the sales to drop until they reacted. and it's a good move, almost nobody really cared about his writing on shadowman. what i don't get: how could he write probably the best issue of the vei with the #0 but relatively bland and boring stuff during the rest of the series? it's a mystery.

Mmmm, that's overly harsh, imo. I wouldn't call it bland. I think there was just a misstep in the way they tried to unfold the saga. The last few issues have been great.

sorry to call it how i see it. of course it's highly subjective. still, if those last few issues were that great, don't you think you'd hear more of an outcry at the departure of the man responsible for all the greatness?
and wouldn't warren&dinesh do everything to hold him back from leaving, now that's he's finally got it?

even in the original valiant batch there were some not so great series (hello hard corps!). it's pretty normal.
it's also a sign of good mgmt that they don't wait for an overtly long period of time until they change course.