HARBINGER #9 DISCUSSION

[Xtianhardy]

Three things off the top of my head:

1. I love that Torque's powers are the result of a mental projection. Adds so much more depth to the character and it is more consistent with the Psiots all having mental powers.

2. If what Pete says is true, and Tull is really being controlled by Harada this entire time, I really really hope that Tull is involved in some kind of a H. A. R. D. Corps initiative following Harbinger Wars.

3. This is the first issue of a Valiant comic to get me choked up. My favorite Faith issue of the VH1 series was #13 where she helps out that homeless guy. This was better.

[lorddunlow]

So the machine that Pete is hooked up to....is it using one of the Bleeding Monk's blood canisters?

I think Dan is onto something here. We theorized many issues ago about the canisters that seemed to be running on a machine in the background of the Bleeding Monk's chambers. I'm pretty excited about this - what is it about the blood that can manipulate a psiot's powers? I don't think that his power is to be a null, because that's what Hidden Moon was, and look how that turned out But it does seem like they are combining is blood with something else to make a strong narcotic for psiots.

If it is the Bleeding Monk's blood - then what is PRS doing with it? Guess that proves Kris' theory correct about the PRS/Harbinger tie.

But wait, there's more! If PRS/Harbinger are connected somehow, then who was the original Harbinger war with?!? And why would PRS be stealing Harbinger children?

I'm not sure if there was a canister of the Monks blood involved with the machine. Tull did a pretty good job describing it as producing beta waves and basically inducing a coma like state.

Of course, Harada had to be doing something with the blood. At the very least he couldn't just have it leaking all over his office building, so he must be collecting it.

In Harby #1, when Harada first finds the Monk, his blood is flowing throughout the temple and outside through gutters or irrigation channels. Was that to just dispose of the blood, or was there another purpose?

I think we still have a lot to learn about the first Harbinger War, but I do believe it was between Harada and PRS. Only PRS may not know that Harada won...

On a related note, and taking a medical/realistic point of view (I know all of this is sci-fi/fantasy, but they are supposed to follow laws of physics, etc. to some extent: i.e. Bloodshot's regenerative ability is fantastical, but he does have to have raw material [cow, prisoner hands, etc.] to regenerate), wouldn't the Bleeding Monk have to drink a lot of fluids in order to not be shriveled from dehydration. That dude seriously produces blood. Blood needs water and nutrients to be formed. Harada would have had a massive grocery bill for this guy. Seems like he would also be really easy to track (just follow the massive trail of blood). Just sayin'

[pixierosa]

Perhaps he has the ability to alter what people see. They don't see the blood or a bleeding man... but how that effects the blood left behind in puddles I don't know. Since Harada used him for consultation rather than just pulling the info he wanted out of the monk's head, I'm guessing he is able to block Harada.

It shouldn't take the Scooby Gang to follow the trail of blood, tho.

[hawkeyeps]

I've been thinking alot about this since listening to the OTV podcast and posting on their thread.

I think a key thing here is the activation process and the comparison of Psiots to "walking WMDs".

As far as we know the only method of activating a latent psiot is Harada's machine and now Pete's abilities and the only 3 Psiots born activated are Pete, Darpan and Harada (sort of).

Unless PRS has their own activation machine (which I now doubt) all Psiots would come from Harada in one way or another as he was the only one capable of activating latent Psiots.

Now assume PRS became aware of Harada and his activation of latent Psiots then developed Bloodshot (perhaps by kid napping the Bleeding Monk) as a counter measure.

The original Harbinger War may have been a show down between PRS and Harada's activated Psiots in which something went horribly wrong and one of the Psiots turned out to be an uncontrollable WMD ("Nobody wants another Harbinger war").

Perhaps Harada would discover that activating Psiots was a very risky business and he needed a method of controlling Psiots which he activated if he didn't feel they were suitable for his Eggbreakers.

Here is where he might have started manipulating PRS to his advantage (he's manipulating the UN so why not?). Initially he would use PRS as the fear card to get latent Psiots to join up with him (as he initially and sucessfuly did with Pete).

However if the Psiot was activated and then found unsuitable Harada would tip off PRS and use them as method of containing and controlling these "Troublemakers".

In Bloodshot #7 we see that Bloodshot's prior missions under Kuertich we're fairly straight forward black ops, now all of sudden his focus has changed to recovering these kids. Kuertich thought of this as a normal mission but found it strange that their missions had changed until he discovered that these kids had powers, then he understood that these kids were potential WMDs. Bloodshot's first mission of this type was to recover Clem who could possibly be the key to setting up the detention facility as the other Psiots would be controlled by Clem's abilty to hack in to brains. Kuertich sees all this going on and is like WTF??

By the time Bloodshot is revived for his next mission Kuertich is gone and Hutch is Bloodshot's new handler. Could this all be Harada's manipulations to serve his own ends (total control of Psiots) and did Kuertich some how clue in to this?

In this scenario Harada would be covertly setting the adgenda for PRS. He would be activating Psiots around the world via his machine and selecting the ones he feels are controllable for his Harbinger academy and later elite Eggbreakers. Those Psiots activated by Harada but found unsuitable would be tipped off to PRS captured and contained in their facility.

This would give a method to Harada of controlling his "mistakes", PRS was originally in opposition to Harada but is now under his control with out their knowledge via a few key persons (Oreck, Tull?) being manipulated by Harada.

It seems to me that Kuertich is the one who might have keyed on to this and the whole ploy of Bloodshot liberating these Psiots is in fact Kuertich's counter measure against Harada realising that his organization has been comprimised by Harada.

Right after Harada interogated Livewire, PRS was all over the Renegades at Torque's place

Of course all this could lead to the destruction of the old PRS and the rise of something new...HARD Corps? Generation Zero at base broadcasting powers to Agents in the field as the Harbinger Active Resistance Division under the direction of Kuertich?

Think of it as a "cold war" that is about to heat up as now we have Pete and the "Nuclear/Psiot" genie is now out of the bottle.

Sorry for the long post, if I'm right I want a hero cookie

[BugsySig]

However if the Psiot was activated and then found unsuitable Harada would tip off PRS and use them as method of containing and controlling these "Troublemakers".

Already called it. Stop tryin ta steal my mojo

J/k...but, seriously, I called it.

Anyway, all your logic makes sense except for one thing: the age of the kids. While I don't doubt Harada's potential evilality, there were no pre-adolescents at the Harbinger foundation--at least none that we saw--other than Darpan.

Harada's big thing with the activation process was letting the person make the decision for themselves (while being manipulated to do so, of course). A child could not do so but even if they, or their parents did, the whole exploding head thing might turn some of Harada's own people off if they were little kid heads.

Something else is going on...these kids were trained in the use of their powers, at a facility they were happy with, guarded by non-Psiot soldiers...I haven't quite wrapped my head around it all yet, but a third party may be the best explanation (Omen, HARD Corps, Orb ). Could the facilities Bloodshot was raiding have been Vine?

[hawkeyeps]

I'm expanding on your thoughts Bugs, simmer

Could the Vine also be activating Psiots, that is very interesting

I think a key thing here is how were these Psiots activated, the perameters were pretty clearly established in issue #1.

I see the paralell between Psiots and WMDs which is a very real "world outside your window" take on the idea of "Mutants".

Who gets activated and why...then what happens?

I love speculating on the books, if I wasn't really hooked I wouldn't bother but Dysart has laid out some pretty great scenarios and can't wait to see where everything goes.

[hawkeyeps]

However if the Psiot was activated and then found unsuitable Harada would tip off PRS and use them as method of containing and controlling these "Troublemakers".

Something else is going on...these kids were trained in the use of their powers, at a facility they were happy with, guarded by non-Psiot soldiers...I haven't quite wrapped my head around it all yet, but a third party may be the best explanation (Omen, HARD Corps, Orb ). Could the facilities Bloodshot was raiding have been Vine?

These kids were activated then trained by Harada in that environment but once thought be unstable they were sent to PRS, then it was Gamma, Chainsaw, glass tubes and containment cubicles.

I can see how these kids might have a chip on their shoulder and no trust in authority.

Back to my Psiots at base broadcasting powers theory (pretty sure that was mine correct me if I'm wrong), it would be too dangerous for the kids or the general public for them to be fighting battles in the field. Here comes HARD Corps

[jmatt]

I have to admit, all of the speculation aside, that the matter of who and how these kids were activated is indeed a interesting question I had not considered. Thanks for pointing that out.

[BugsySig]

However if the Psiot was activated and then found unsuitable Harada would tip off PRS and use them as method of containing and controlling these "Troublemakers".

Something else is going on...these kids were trained in the use of their powers, at a facility they were happy with, guarded by non-Psiot soldiers...I haven't quite wrapped my head around it all yet, but a third party may be the best explanation (Omen, HARD Corps, Orb ). Could the facilities Bloodshot was raiding have been Vine?

These kids were activated then trained by Harada in that environment but once thought be unstable they were sent to PRS, then it was Gamma, Chainsaw, glass tubes and containment cubicles.

I can see how these kids might have a chip on their shoulder and no trust in authority.

Back to my Psiots at base broadcasting powers theory (pretty sure that was mine correct me if I'm wrong), it would be too dangerous for the kids or the general public for them to be fighting battles in the field. Here comes HARD Corps

Yah, yeah, yeah, that was yours...

...I can see them being trained by Harada, but it seems like an awful lot of collateral damage. Would Harada really risk all those soldiers, bases, equipment, etc just to maintain the guise of not being in control of PRS? He could just as easily send them out for a night on the town and have PRS swoop in and take them.

Also, when Pete proved unstable, Harada tried a whole lot of stuff to keep him around (granted he is special). Otherwise it seems like he would have just killed anyone unstable enough. Why want to whack Faith when you could just send her to PRS? There's got to be another angle here...

[lorddunlow]

Yah, yeah, yeah, that was yours...

...I can see them being trained by Harada, but it seems like an awful lot of collateral damage. Would Harada really risk all those soldiers, bases, equipment, etc just to maintain the guise of not being in control of PRS? He could just as easily send them out for a night on the town and have PRS swoop in and take them.

Also, when Pete proved unstable, Harada tried a whole lot of stuff to keep him around (granted he is special). Otherwise it seems like he would have just killed anyone unstable enough. Why want to whack Faith when you could just send her to PRS? There's got to be another angle here...

I disagree. I don't think Harada values any lives at all. He sees everyone as a pawn in his schemes. If they serve him best dead, then he arranges things so that they are killed. Nothing is sacred other than his megalomaniacal ideals of how the world should be run. You see how he has treated Livewire, and how he has used Darpan. He wanted to use Pete, but when it seemed he was not going to play the way Harada wanted him to, he attempted to destroy him. I think it is very possible that he controls both PRS and his own organization. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a hand in creating Bloodshot.

[BugsySig]

Yah, yeah, yeah, that was yours...

...I can see them being trained by Harada, but it seems like an awful lot of collateral damage. Would Harada really risk all those soldiers, bases, equipment, etc just to maintain the guise of not being in control of PRS? He could just as easily send them out for a night on the town and have PRS swoop in and take them.

Also, when Pete proved unstable, Harada tried a whole lot of stuff to keep him around (granted he is special). Otherwise it seems like he would have just killed anyone unstable enough. Why want to whack Faith when you could just send her to PRS? There's got to be another angle here...

I disagree. I don't think Harada values any lives at all. He sees everyone as a pawn in his schemes. If they serve him best dead, then he arranges things so that they are killed. Nothing is sacred other than his megalomaniacal ideals of how the world should be run. You see how he has treated Livewire, and how he has used Darpan. He wanted to use Pete, but when it seemed he was not going to play the way Harada wanted him to, he attempted to destroy him. I think it is very possible that he controls both PRS and his own organization. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a hand in creating Bloodshot.

I'm not eliminating that possibility, I'm just not sure all the pieces fit together for that yet.

Granted, Harada had no trouble relocating the entire foundation to Pittsburgh just to be near Pete, so the guy don't care about money. Nor does he care about human lives.

I'm still not sure he runs PRS, but I think he is manipulating them from within. It has been far too convenient when PRS has shown up: first at Pete's house, and again at Torques. But it was inconvenient when they showed up at Kris's house...which lead Harada to call and chastise his inside man. So he's not in complete control. Could he have been in the past? That's another story.

[KXXX]

So the machine that Pete is hooked up to....is it using one of the Bleeding Monk's blood canisters?

I think Dan is onto something here. We theorized many issues ago about the canisters that seemed to be running on a machine in the background of the Bleeding Monk's chambers. I'm pretty excited about this - what is it about the blood that can manipulate a psiot's powers? I don't think that his power is to be a null, because that's what Hidden Moon was, and look how that turned out But it does seem like they are combining is blood with something else to make a strong narcotic for psiots.

If it is the Bleeding Monk's blood - then what is PRS doing with it? Guess that proves Kris' theory correct about the PRS/Harbinger tie.

But wait, there's more! If PRS/Harbinger are connected somehow, then who was the original Harbinger war with?!? And why would PRS be stealing Harbinger children?

I'm not sure if there was a canister of the Monks blood involved with the machine. Tull did a pretty good job describing it as producing beta waves and basically inducing a coma like state.

Of course, Harada had to be doing something with the blood. At the very least he couldn't just have it leaking all over his office building, so he must be collecting it.

In Harby #1, when Harada first finds the Monk, his blood is flowing throughout the temple and outside through gutters or irrigation channels. Was that to just dispose of the blood, or was there another purpose?

I think we still have a lot to learn about the first Harbinger War, but I do believe it was between Harada and PRS. Only PRS may not know that Harada won...

On a related note, and taking a medical/realistic point of view (I know all of this is sci-fi/fantasy, but they are supposed to follow laws of physics, etc. to some extent: i.e. Bloodshot's regenerative ability is fantastical, but he does have to have raw material [cow, prisoner hands, etc.] to regenerate), wouldn't the Bleeding Monk have to drink a lot of fluids in order to not be shriveled from dehydration. That dude seriously produces blood. Blood needs water and nutrients to be formed. Harada would have had a massive grocery bill for this guy. Seems like he would also be really easy to track (just follow the massive trail of blood). Just sayin'

It would make perfect sense if his wounds were actually portals to a dimension where EVERYTHING IS BLOOD.

[hawkeyeps]

Perhaps the reason Harada does not just kill them is the fact that they are children and he is playing a long game here.

He sets up PRS as the "Boogyman" which leads latents to him for "popping", the ones who take to the program and prove controllable are sent to the Harbinger Academy, the "Troublemakers" are sent to PRS which makes the "Boogyman" a very real thing.

After some years of incarceration under PRS these Psiots would grow up in an environment where thay are rendered harmless, when the time came that they were at a useful age if one of them were to "escape" the first thing they would do is come running to Harada, they would also likely be fiercely loyal and willing to get with his program due to their expeirence at PRS.

Pulse is a good example, the first thing she did when she got away from PRS was to try and contact "Tony Harada".

Where did "Tony Harada" come from? How was Pulse activated in first place?

Maybe these Psiots are on ice until they become useful and controllable by Harada, none of them would have really been at that point yet as the oldest ones seem to be Cloud, Pulse and Clem and they are still pretty young (no older than 15-16 I'm thinking).

The wrench in Harada's plan was Kuertich's move with Bloodshot. I recall Ingrid and Harada discussing how they got to Pete too late and now that I think about it the PRS detention facility is called "the Nursery".

I think the rice balls may have been a metaphore for Psiots, Toyo sees them as valuable and seeks to control them. Killing them would be waste of a rare and valuable resource for Harada. Mature Psiots maybe he would kill instead of having them potentially oppose him but with the children he thinks he can contain them and later turn them to loyal followers.

[pixierosa]

Some interesting points there, and I like the PRS boogeyman makes Harada seem safe theory. My main question is about the psiots themselves: can they activate on their own as part of the maturation process or the result of trauma and so forth?

[BugsySig]

Perhaps the reason Harada does not just kill them is the fact that they are children and he is playing a long game here.

He sets up PRS as the "Boogyman" which leads latents to him for "popping", the ones who take to the program and prove controllable are sent to the Harbinger Academy, the "Troublemakers" are sent to PRS which makes the "Boogyman" a very real thing.

After some years of incarceration under PRS these Psiots would grow up in an environment where thay are rendered harmless, when the time came that they were at a useful age if one of them were to "escape" the first thing they would do is come running to Harada, they would also likely be fiercely loyal and willing to get with his program due to their expeirence at PRS.

Pulse is a good example, the first thing she did when she got away from PRS was to try and contact "Tony Harada".

Where did "Tony Harada" come from? How was Pulse activated in first place?

Maybe these Psiots are on ice until they become useful and controllable by Harada, none of them would have really been at that point yet as the oldest ones seem to be Cloud, Pulse and Clem and they are still pretty young (no older than 15-16 I'm thinking).

The wrench in Harada's plan was Kuertich's move with Bloodshot. I recall Ingrid and Harada discussing how they got to Pete too late and now that I think about it the PRS detention facility is called "the Nursery".

I think the rice balls may have been a metaphore for Psiots, Toyo sees them as valuable and seeks to control them. Killing them would be waste of a rare and valuable resource for Harada. Mature Psiots maybe he would kill instead of having them potentially oppose him but with the children he thinks he can contain them and later turn them to loyal followers.

See...this is why we talk things out.

Your argument is making more and more sense to me, but there are still a few holes left to fill in. The biggest one, to me, is the elaborate nature of the hoax/cover-up. Its a little too "Truther" for me.

An opposing 3rd party collecting and training Psiots still makes more sense to me, along with the manipulation of PRS from the inside and out by Harada. Maybe its US Military or another government, a private corporation like Omen, or an outlier like The Vine/Plantings cultivating mankind.

Of course, my original opinion was they were obviously being taken from the Harbinger Foundation (the issue was called "Harbinger Hunter" after all). But the more I put the pieces together, the less that seemed to fit. Maybe I'm just overanalyzing.

Would be a great use of the "Troublemakers" IP, though.

[BugsySig]

Some interesting points there, and I like the PRS boogeyman makes Harada seem safe theory. My main question is about the psiots themselves: can they activate on their own as part of the maturation process or the result of trauma and so forth?

Well, Harada (if we believe him, and I'm not sure I do) was activated through trauma.

I the original version, so was Pete when Harada attempted to have him murdered. And Archer when his parents tried to kill him.

[lorddunlow]

I definitely think that psiots can self activate. I think Harada's whole "normals, latents, born activated" speech is 100% contrived. We know he lied about himself being born active. I'm fairly sure he's lying about the machine being the only way to activate latents. I have also thought that the 1:4 dying with the process may be a manipulation as well. Peter is not shown an activation gone bad as a live feed, but in the form of a video file, which could easily have been faked. Perhaps Harada is the one that has been activating all of this time (as part of his abilities), and he's interested in Peter because he wants to have full control over who is activated. Maybe as he's activating them, he probes their minds to see if he can use them or if they would be more of a liability. If they are, he pops some vessels in their head and they die. Easy to blame the machine.

Definitely they can self-activate. It's the power of activating others that is the rarity in my opinion. I think so far that has been an ability that only Peter (and perhaps Harada) has had.

[BugsySig]

I definitely think that psiots can self activate. I think Harada's whole "normals, latents, born activated" speech is 100% contrived. We know he lied about himself being born active. I'm fairly sure he's lying about the machine being the only way to activate latents. I have also thought that the 1:4 dying with the process may be a manipulation as well. Peter is not shown an activation gone bad as a live feed, but in the form of a video file, which could easily have been faked. Perhaps Harada is the one that has been activating all of this time (as part of his abilities), and he's interested in Peter because he wants to have full control over who is activated. Maybe as he's activating them, he probes their minds to see if he can use them or if they would be more of a liability. If they are, he pops some vessels in their head and they die. Easy to blame the machine.

Definitely they can self-activate. It's the power of activating others that is the rarity in my opinion. I think so far that has been an ability that only Peter (and perhaps Harada) has had.

I have thought that as well about Harada's ability to activate.

[hawkeyeps]

I don't think Harada created PRS but he did covertly subvert it, and the point when he did so was Bloodshot #7. Prior to that Kuertich was down with what PRS was doing, it was after that mission he went rogue and was replaced by Hutch.

The really tricky angles are what is the deal with activation, the Bleeding Monk, Blodshot's origin, Grey Goo/Atlee Nevada and Archer's connection to the PRS orphanage?

When Valiant said they had HW well set up from the begining they weren't kidding!

I think this level of craft will really set it apart from typical comic cross overs.

[hawkeyeps]

I definitely think that psiots can self activate. I think Harada's whole "normals, latents, born activated" speech is 100% contrived. We know he lied about himself being born active. I'm fairly sure he's lying about the machine being the only way to activate latents. I have also thought that the 1:4 dying with the process may be a manipulation as well. Peter is not shown an activation gone bad as a live feed, but in the form of a video file, which could easily have been faked. Perhaps Harada is the one that has been activating all of this time (as part of his abilities), and he's interested in Peter because he wants to have full control over who is activated. Maybe as he's activating them, he probes their minds to see if he can use them or if they would be more of a liability. If they are, he pops some vessels in their head and they die. Easy to blame the machine.

Definitely they can self-activate. It's the power of activating others that is the rarity in my opinion. I think so far that has been an ability that only Peter (and perhaps Harada) has had.

I have thought that as well about Harada's ability to activate.

It's not just Harada laying out the norms/latents/born concept, it was also Josh Dysart in the early interviews he did about Harbinger, he seemed to lay that out as a major point of how Psiots (mutants) would work in VEI, IIRC.

Self activating or activating by truama is too much like Marvel's mutants, this concept is entirely different and the how and the why the Psiots are activated is a key point, IMO.

It's like nuclear bombs or other WMDs, who has the ability to create them and who controls them?

[jmatt]

All of this speculation is very reminiscent of the Foundation trilogy by Isaac Asimov with PRS being created as the Second Foundation. Toyo Harada as Hari Seldon? Intriguing.

If you like this sort of secrecy, mystery, and master planning, you must read the Trilogy. Must.

But personally, I don't think it will be quite that complicated.

[lorddunlow]

All of this speculation is very reminiscent of the Foundation trilogy by Isaac Asimov with PRS being created as the Second Foundation. Toyo Harada as Hari Seldon? Intriguing.

If you like this sort of secrecy, mystery, and master planning, you must read the Trilogy. Must.

But personally, I don't think it will be quite that complicated.

I'm a big Asimov fan, but I haven't read that yet. A friend gave me a copy for Christmas years ago, but I haven't had the time to read it.

[myron]

<snip>
I'm a big Asimov fan, but I haven't read that yet. A friend gave me a copy for Christmas years ago, but I haven't had the time to read it.

read it! some of the best fiction ever written...

[Phoenix8008]

<snip>
I'm a big Asimov fan, but I haven't read that yet. A friend gave me a copy for Christmas years ago, but I haven't had the time to read it.

read it! some of the best fiction ever written...

Great. Now I have a list of 15 books (Robots, Empire, and Foundation books) to try and find and read. That's after I finish re-reading Lord of the Rings that I just started. Thanks...

Actually, they sound awesome and I can't believe I've never read them yet. Time to get busy.

[BugsySig]

<snip>
I'm a big Asimov fan, but I haven't read that yet. A friend gave me a copy for Christmas years ago, but I haven't had the time to read it.

read it! some of the best fiction ever written...

Great. Now I have a list of 15 books (Robots, Empire, and Foundation books) to try and find and read. That's after I finish re-reading Lord of the Rings that I just started. Thanks...

Actually, they sound awesome and I can't believe I've never read them yet. Time to get busy.

I've read the original trilogy plus the later continuation books. The trilogy is better, but the others still enrich the overall story. And they all read pretty quickly.