Theory of Speculation...

[Sector3600]

Even before Valiant was considered hot, there were many who took advance of the fact that early Valiant was hard to find, to "jack up" prices whenever they could.

I know of some that still kept the highest past price they can on pre-Unity or the "special" issues in their back issue bins and will not budge on the price due to their investment at the time they acquired it.

Traders would buy up stacks of a given issue and stored them. Valiant demand fell, oh what to do

Does everyone really think there is not a financial angle to the recent CGC pricing of Valiant comics?

Those same stashers, almost desperate to sell their stash, see a god-send in the recent Valiant surge.

Yes, some people may suggest its because of the great story or art or both, and that they are trying to promote Valiant books.

If this was true why sell a majority of only the premium books or pre-Unity in 9.6 & higher condition and not more runs of a series or issues for a fair market price

Me, I'll sell few NM pre-Unity for cash as long as I do keep a copy to re-read over and over, either in issue or trade. But if I didn't talk about the stories or art on a board such as this, would I be true to the Valiant cause

[oxygen]

Well I am going to have to disagree with you on this one...NO ONE was going to walk in a buy that book.....No one had walked in and bought that book for over 10 years.

that's debatable, but oh well.

Plus the guy that you are talking about is a stand up guy who has helped more than one person fill holes in their collection from these finds....

obviously i was using that person as an example. if you can't grasp that, i don't know what to tell you.

This statement about someone, who may or may not even exist, having more right to those comics is retarded....it is borderline the dumdest thing that I have heard in long time....

you must not get out much.

No one has any more "right" to a comic book than me...If I find it and I have the money to get it then it is mine...Plain and Simple....this is America, right?

you're looking at this so black and white. there are no hard and fast rules to what i'm saying. can you buy a book because you see it? certainly (although being in america has nothing to do with it). would i rather see it go to someone who doesn't have it? certainly. will it usually happen that way? certainly not.


lobo understand's what i'm saying.


edit : i think this just goes back to my idea that comic books shouldn't be viewed the same way as an investment. comics, like other things that can be bought just to be resold (art, cars, etc.), should be enjoyed. art should be seen, cars should be driven, and comics should be read. i doubt stan lee and jack kirby would be excited to see their comics collecting dust in a closet or eternally slabbed by cgc. but again, this is all how i see things. i don't view anyone in a negative light just because they buy exorbitant amounts of rare books, i'd just rather see the books spread around.

[DawgPhan]

Well I am going to have to disagree with you on this one...NO ONE was going to walk in a buy that book.....No one had walked in and bought that book for over 10 years.

that's debatable, but oh well.

No one was buying that comic. No one had bought that comic. There might be some slight chance that in the next 10,000 or so years before it completely turned to dust that someone might have bought it...so yes I guess it is debatable.

Plus the guy that you are talking about is a stand up guy who has helped more than one person fill holes in their collection from these finds....

obviously i was using that person as an example. if you can't grasp that, i don't know what to tell you.

Well you used him as an example. I took offense to that. He did nothing wrong. He is a good guy. Next time make something up if you want to prove a point. Dont use people who help people. I understand that you used him as an example. Maybe you are unclear about what an example is.

This statement about someone, who may or may not even exist, having more right to those comics is retarded....it is borderline the dumdest thing that I have heard in long time....

you must not get out much.

No I just dont allow people to make retarded statements around me without me letting them know about it.

No one has any more "right" to a comic book than me...If I find it and I have the money to get it then it is mine...Plain and Simple....this is America, right?

you're looking at this so black and white. there are no hard and fast rules to what i'm saying. can you buy a book because you see it? certainly (although being in america has nothing to do with it). would i rather see it go to someone who doesn't have it? certainly. will it usually happen that way? certainly not.

I would like to ride and unicorn to work everyday and get BJs from fairies ...but that does not happen ...well maybe I could get a bj from a fairy if I went to the right part of town .....it is because we live in the real world...stop being so idealistic...Hell I want an action 1...I could have bought one off of the newstand too if some jerk had not bought 2 copies...that selfish *SQUEE*...the early bird gets the worm....in this case the bird that shows up after 10 years and searches gets the worm...Really are you defending this position? If I over sleep and I miss the time that concert tickets go on sell and it sells out should I be *SQUEE* at some guy who did get up and buy tickets? hell no I...I dont whine about some guy who bought tickets for his friends either.."man if he would not have bought all those tickets I could have gotten one." Well you could have gotten one by getting up and getting one..Everything is always someone else's fault.....and dont give me some scalper rationale either...this guy is not scalper...I am just using him as an example...

lobo understand's what i'm saying.

good for him....peace I'm out...time to go home and see walking tall tonight The rock smells what I cookin'!

[oxygen]

Well you used him as an example. I took offense to that. He did nothing wrong. He is a good guy. Next time make something up if you want to prove a point. Dont use people who help people. I understand that you used him as an example. Maybe you are unclear about what an example is.

i was talking about people who buy many copies of a comic. he stated he bought many copies of a comic. i think he ties in perfectly to my post. i have no doubt that he's a great guy (i'm not sure i ever said he was a bad person), but he [jokingly] thought this original topic was about him, so obviously he realizes he could be used as an example.

No I just dont allow people to make retarded statements around me without me letting them know about it.

regardless of whether you let the person know, that's after the fact. you would have still heard the "retarded" statement. but this is off topic.

I would like to ride and unicorn to work everyday and get BJs from fairies [and so on and so forth]

i pointed out several times that i realize what i want to happen is far from what does happen. i even pointed out that my idealism probably extends from the fact that i don't have more of the rarer books. i'll even go so far as to say if i saw ten copies of magnus #0 for ten cents each, i'd probably buy them all. i'm not saying i'm perfect or that i have all the answers, but this is a discussion and discourse breeds new ideas and avenues for the proliferation of those ideas.


"idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem." -john galsworthy

[DawgPhan]

so it really looks like are talking about the same side of the coin...thats fine...

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Intimation noted.

But to take an analogy to an extreme, are you more likely to read a 10000 page novel or a 300 page book.

I'm more likely to read the rest of CJV's post when I have been intrigued
by the first couple of paragraphs.

DAYUM! SMACKDOWN, WWV style!

<smirk>

Yes....like any great art, it's the first impression that captures....or bores. You have a killer premise, and most anyone will want to read what follows.

You butcher the language, have weak concept paragraphs, and/or are just plain boring....no one will read anything you write.

That's Literature 101.

[COMICKINGS]

.......... If I over sleep and I miss the time that concert tickets go on sell and it sells out should I be *SQUEE* at some guy who did get up and buy tickets? hell no I...I dont whine about some guy who bought tickets for his friends either.."man if he would not have bought all those tickets I could have gotten one." Well you could have gotten one by getting up and getting one..........

You know what really sucks is TICKETMASTER.It's not your neighbor that got up early and went and got 8 tickets,it's JACKASS TICKETMASTERS fault for letting a guy in Alaska buy 8 tickets online or over the phone for a show in Florida.I'm not *SQUEE* at the guy because he's hustling,he's an entrepenuer,but Ticketmaster knows damn well the of the first few thousand tickets sold maybe 5% are going to the people in that city that really want good seats......I've been the first person in line to get tix before and the second they go on sale and get mine,I'm frickin 25 rows back....

......as for scooping up a good deal.....if you're *SQUEE* at a guy out there buying 22 copies of a same book (especially one thats been sitting there for 10 years!) you got problems.Or maybe you don't know what it's like to have to go out and try to make a living.Not everybody knows how to play the stock market,or the real estate market.They know comics & collectibles.This is "their" stock market.Not everybody "reads" comics.I have weekly pull customers that don't read any of the books they get.They think they might be able to resell it for a profit one day.Sure,the main reason they are even made is for enjoyment,but so were the classic automobiles sitting under a tarp in a heated garage that haven't seen the road in 20 years,so were the paintings by the masters that are now locked away in a dark vault,so were the pinball machines,video & arcade games,that now cost up to a few thousand each.EVERYTHING that anybody enjoys doing,playing,reading etc.,one day is going to be a collectible.And there's always going to be people smart enough to think ahead to put away some for later to try and resell and make a profit. Sometimes it works,and most of the time it doesn't. If I was mad about anything,it's that I didn't find the lot first!

[magnusr]

You know what really sucks is TICKETMASTER ... I've been the first person in line to get tix before and the second they go on sale and get mine,I'm frickin 25 rows back....

If that sucks, how about if all the tickets are sold through the back door while you're standing in line? How about if the tickets are for the best concert in 10 years - would that suck? How about if the guy who got the tickets follows up by insulting you, just because you mention that it sucks? Please, think about it.

/Magnus

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

In response to Raifan:
Does anyone else here think that the boardmembers are jacking up the prices of pre-unity books on ebay? I don't think this is true, I find most of the boardmembers here pretty value driven, looking for that gem book at the right price, or combined in large lots to lower the cost per book. There is some competitive bidding on the really rare books like the XO 1/2 gold, but those are rare by the standard of any book from any era, with the only exception being that it is a variant cover. What do you guys think?

Yes.

I have purposely driven up prices on items on eBay, just to see what someone else is willing to pay for an item. Unfair? Nope. If the person didn't want to pay their high(er) bid, they should have bid a lower amount. Do I get to pay a lower amount if someone nibbles MY high bid? No.

It's the way the game works. It's cutthroat, but it's capitalism, and it's what works best with inherent human nature. If you understand and accept the rules going in, you will *never* have a problem with it...well, except when YOU didn't put in the highest amount YOU were willing to pay...and that's no one's fault but YOURS.

Mainly because I've spent almost 6 years on eBay (Oct 1998), I've learned the intricacies of the game, and so don't end up winning (much.) It's all about understanding the proxy, baby.

[lobo]

.......... If I over sleep and I miss the time that concert tickets go on sell and it sells out should I be *SQUEE* at some guy who did get up and buy tickets? hell no I...I dont whine about some guy who bought tickets for his friends either.."man if he would not have bought all those tickets I could have gotten one." Well you could have gotten one by getting up and getting one..........

You know what really sucks is TICKETMASTER.It's not your neighbor that got up early and went and got 8 tickets,it's JACKASS TICKETMASTERS fault for letting a guy in Alaska buy 8 tickets online or over the phone for a show in Florida.I'm not *SQUEE* at the guy because he's hustling,he's an entrepenuer,but Ticketmaster knows damn well the of the first few thousand tickets sold maybe 5% are going to the people in that city that really want good seats......I've been the first person in line to get tix before and the second they go on sale and get mine,I'm frickin 25 rows back....

......as for scooping up a good deal.....if you're *SQUEE* at a guy out there buying 22 copies of a same book (especially one thats been sitting there for 10 years!) you got problems.Or maybe you don't know what it's like to have to go out and try to make a living.Not everybody knows how to play the stock market,or the real estate market.They know comics & collectibles.This is "their" stock market.Not everybody "reads" comics.I have weekly pull customers that don't read any of the books they get.They think they might be able to resell it for a profit one day.Sure,the main reason they are even made is for enjoyment,but so were the classic automobiles sitting under a tarp in a heated garage that haven't seen the road in 20 years,so were the paintings by the masters that are now locked away in a dark vault,so were the pinball machines,video & arcade games,that now cost up to a few thousand each.EVERYTHING that anybody enjoys doing,playing,reading etc.,one day is going to be a collectible.And there's always going to be people smart enough to think ahead to put away some for later to try and resell and make a profit. Sometimes it works,and most of the time it doesn't. If I was mad about anything,it's that I didn't find the lot first!

Exactly! There will always be the have nots who will *SQUEE* and complain about their missed opportunities and place the blame on everybody else except on their own inaction or ineptitude. They always want their cake and eat it too but are too dumb or lazy to make things happen for themselves. Having a good attitude makes the world go round.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I could care less about Aug because I don't even deal with those books, but I do have a problem when people buy countless copies of rare books. Take for instance the guy who bought 22 or however many copies of Solar #6. That's 21 less people who could walk into the comic store and pick up an amazing book for a couple cents. These are supposed to be such great stories, and it's sad when the books just wither away in collections in closets (maybe he's not going to store those books in a collection, but many people have and will continue to do so). And once those books hit the collector circuit, they'll never come out. It's just a cycle between more and more collectors, cutting off any hopes of new readers experiencing them. Maybe I'm just bitter because I can't find/afford these books, but oh well, it's still disheartening to me.


edit : I should have read all the posts because I realize now that mine is similar to the one before me. At least I know someone's on my side.

Half of what I was going to say was said by Dawg, so I'll just re-iterate...those books were in that store owners stock for 10+ years. No one wanted to buy them, though EVERYONE had the opportunity to do so. It's not like it was, say, Superman #75 which were selling for $10 THE DAY THEY CAME OUT. You cannot, in this case, make ANY claim that people were denied even the opportunity to buy them, nor can you reasonably impose a limit on such books..they were there for TEN YEARS.

Your premise is incorrect, and, in fact, entirely contrary to what really happens. Hoarding of books is not only NOT detrimental to the community, it's net effect overall is positive. Here's why:

As with anything in life, we only ever really treasure something if we EARN it. If you are playing a game, and the rules are such that 'everyone wins', and there are no losers....you will not EVER value that experience for what it is. The guy who bought those 21 copies of Magnus #6 did, indeed, earn it, by doing the legwork to FIND them in the first place. Even if he didn't pay much in CASH, he still paid in time and effort.

Likewise, if those 21 copies were just given to 21 different people, some of whom might read them, some of whom might not, but ALL of whom would regard them as 'less than desirable' because, hey, they were FREE, so how much could they really be WORTH? (yes, this seems contrary to logic, but it's in step with human nature, which attaches a value, usually monetary, to EVERYTHING...if something is FREE....it's probably only 'worth', in the eyes of the receiver, what was paid for it.)

But...if it COST something (in terms of time, money, effort, or all three)...then that thing will have PERCEIVED VALUE in the eyes of the purchaser, at the VERY least what he/she paid for it in time, money, and/or effort, and quite often more. The purchase BELIEVES that the item is worth such and such a 'price', because they were willing to pay that 'price' to obtain the item(s).

So, now, all these books that are hoarded in a set amount of collections, they are UNobtainable (currently) by ANYONE (say, on eBay) for LESS THAN a certain amount (and, in cases like Harbinger #1, that amount is no less than $10 in NM...or 5 TIMES cover) because that is the 'lower limit' to which I and many other have set the bar. That means Harb #1 has an ACTUAL VALUE of no less than $10, because that is the minimum that the market has determined the book is 'worth'.

Therefore, because the items not only have PERCEIVED value (you think they're worth more than 'a few cents')....but they have ACTUAL value (someone else came along and paid a price 'more than zero')...then other people will recognize that value and be inspired to perhaps 'check out' Valiant comics, and this whole big cycle comes about that we are witnessing now. This, as you probably realize, is not only NOT detrimental....it's extremely positive for the community as a whole, even to the point that interest and demand becomes such that the characters are published again, which, in MY eyes, is the ultimate goal.

So...you give something away, interest may or may not be there, but because it COST nothing to the receiver, their reaction will be, at best, 'eh', there's no real interest in the property, character, or company, and nothing happens (which is detrimental to the community.) BUT...you make the receiver EARN the item (either by paying current market rate for it, or by discovering it languishing in a tucked away bin somewhere) and they will value the item much more highly, interest is increased, others hear about what some 'nut' was willing to pay, and demand increases proportionally. And VOILA! A positive effect on the community. Hoarding decreases the available cheap supply, which increases the asking price for the remaining supply, which increases the interest in said supply, which proportionately increases the interest in the items themselves, and the community as a whole. Thus....no detriment, only positive.


I think you nailed it on the head when you said you were bitter about not being able to find these books. It's just sour grapes. I was bitter about missing out on all the super high grade keys of the late 80's being locked away for over a decade (like Cap #100 for $12 in 1988) by the time I got into comics (late 89/early 90), but it did me no good, so I focused all that energy into getting MY collection built. Do I need 200 copies of Justice League #1? No. But they are worth MORE to me than 25¢, and I'll buy any and all of them, because...and here's the kicker....currently, NO ONE ELSE WANTS THEM for that price. And...if no one else wants them, why does it matter if *I* do? And that was the case with Valiants for almost an entire decade. Funny thing is, there's a store in my area that has long boxes of them for $1...and, over the past five years, I've wanted to buy all of them, but he only lets me buy 20-30 at a time, because he thinks 'someone else may want them, and I want to give them that opportunity if they do'...which is fine...but all that time, he's wasting resources on storing them, and taking the chance that it might be YEARS before they sell again. But...that's what HE wants to do, they're HIS books, so that's the way it is. I guarantee, it costs him more in time and resources to keep them around than what he would realize on a return if he sold them all to me, but again....that's HIS right.

I didn't get to buy Spiderman #1 for 12 cents, mainly because it predated ME by 10 years. Should I tell everyone who owns one 'hey...it's not FAIR that you all get one, and I don't!'...I didn't get to buy it for $30 when I was born, nor $500 when I was 10. I COULD have bought it for $3000 when I was 20, but it wasn't something I DESIRED more than I desired a nice car. Did I miss out? Eh. Not really. There has never been a time in MY lifetime that a Spiderman #1 was worth the market price TO ME. If I could find a NM copy of Spidey #1 for $5,000 NOW...I'd jump at it. But, I don't really have that opportunity, so why be bitter about it?

And if someone DID have the opportunity (as I did, and all of us have at one point or another..I own NO copies of Ultimate Spiderman #1, never have, but it was a $3 book in 2000 ) to buy these books on the cheap, and chose not to pursue it....well....then they're just whining.

Let me offer this advice for you: Valiants are still cheap on eBay. If you want A copy, buy it NOW. You will find that, in the not too distant future, YOU will be able to say 'yeah, I bought my Solar run off of eBay for cover price, 12 YEARS after they came out!!' when the first 10 are selling for $25 or more each. If you're bitter about not being able to buy 21 copies of Magnus #6 for however many cents, go out and find them YOURSELF....it's worth it, BELIEVE me, when you find something like that. Hell, I got all excited last year when I bought 20 gold Deathmate books for 50 cents each!

So...don't be bitter, just get out there and get them NOW, before it's too late. You have the opportunity NOW, you've been informed....so don't WASTE it! You'll be glad you did!

[oxygen]

I'd like to think of myself at least on the same intellectual level as someone with the handle "DawgPhan" or "ZephyrWasHOT!!", so you guys really don't have to talk to me like I'm six years old. I understand where everyone is coming from and I've even stated that, it's just that we see things differently. This is getting tired. I offered my opinion and you offered yours.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I'd like to think of myself at least on the same intellectual level as someone with the handle "DawgPhan" or "ZephyrWasHOT!!", so you guys really don't have to talk to me like I'm six years old. I understand where everyone is coming from and I've even stated that, it's just that we see things differently. This is getting tired. I offered my opinion and you offered yours.

(A) A person's 'handle' has little or nothing to do with their level of intellect, and merely a passing nod to their creativity. It is simply a name by which we identify ourselves to others, a name which may or may not say something about a person's personality....but has nil to do with a person's intellect. Judge a person's intellect by their words....not their handle.

(B) No one....well, I'm not anyways...talking to you like you're 6. I offered you some very good advice, it's up to you whether you take it or not. You expressed a sour grapes attitude that came across as whining; I was stating that it's not too LATE to get your own good deals, and offering some sound advice, instead of just telling you to 'shut yer piehole, whiner'. Using the 'we see things differently' excuse only goes so far. Eventually, everyone had to agree that the world was not a flat disc at the center of the universe, for example. Those who believe that, while entitled to 'see things differently', really aren't people that are taken seriously, ya know?

(C) As far as intellectual levels go....well....we'll leave that up to standardized testing, experience, and achievement to decide.

[oxygen]

Using the 'we see things differently' excuse only goes so far. Eventually, everyone had to agree that the world was not a flat disc at the center of the universe, for example. Those who believe that, while entitled to 'see things differently', really aren't people that are taken seriously, ya know?

obviously there's less room to budge in the realm of tried and true scientific discoveries, but are you actually going to say that there's no spectrum for ideologies? why would greg have even started this topic if there's only one, as you assert, correct way of thinking on the subject?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

obviously there's less room to budge in the realm of tried and true scientific discoveries, but are you actually going to say that there's no spectrum for ideologies? why would greg have even started this topic if there's only one, as you assert, correct way of thinking on the subject?

What are you reading into this? Who on EARTH said there was only one correct way of thinking on this particular subject? Those words, and nothing like them, have been typed by me, at any time. I have 'asserted' nothing of the sort. OUR discussion (is buying hard to find books at cheap prices, and then hoarding them, detrimental to the Valiant community?) bears only a passing resemblance to Greg's topic of 'Why do we get mad at Aug002 when he buys up all (or most) available copies on eBay of these books (and setting records in the process)?' While both have to do with hoarding, OUR discussion centers on people buying these books on the CHEAP, and then hoarding them to sell for a later date at a profit, thus depriving others of 'buying them on the cheap', while the original discussion has to do with people like Aug002 buying books for record prices NOW, and driving up the prices on everything NOW, which is exactly what most of us who buy Valiants DON'T WANT...at least not yet...not until we ('we' meaning any of us who has bought more than one copy of any particular book) all feel we 'have enough' to sell at a profit, or trade at a profit.

See the difference?

I asserted that you are wrong in YOUR premise that it's 'detrimental to the community for people to hoard', then I set about proving that assertion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

For you to then come along and say 'we see things differently' in the face of tried and true, empirical economic evidence, is akin to people still believing the world is flat. You are ALLOWED to believe that hoarding is detrimental to this community, but it has been proven over and over and over and over again that hoarding NON-essential items PROMOTES economic stability, by keeping a tight rein on the available supply which in turn maintains a stable value of whatever it is that's being hoarded.

Don't believe me? Think gold is really worth (does quick spot price research...hold for a minute..) $400/oz, now that it backs no nation's currency, is found in no circulating coinage, has limited technological applications, and whose major usage in the 21st century so far has been in jewelry and electronics? Of course not!

Gold is worth $400/oz, because nearly every major power in the world hoards it TO THIS DAY. Ever hear of Ft. Knox? How about West Point? The gold there serves no purpose; it doesn't back the currency, it's a FRACTION of the amount now in circulation. It's certainly not USED for anything. So why is it hoarded there? Simple: to MAINTAIN IT'S WORLD MARKET VALUE, and a 'just in case' the world goes to hell in a handbasket.

If every nation that hoarded it on earth suddenly, overnight, tried to sell their entire gold reserve...the value of gold would PLUMMET, and cause absolute havoc in the world economy. Outside of hoarding, there's not enough worldwide DEMAND for gold for it to be worth $400/oz.

Gold's value has maintained it's place in history PRECISELY because those who had it HOARDED it, not because those who had it freely gave it away to anyone and everyone who wanted some, on the cheap. And those who didn't HAVE it sought to GET it, which increased it's PERCEIVED value tremendously, and when they DID get it, they were able to (A) hoard it, or (B) sell it for it's market value, which maintained it's ACTUAL value. This is not 'expressing differences of opinion on unclear subjects', this has nothing to do with refuting Greg's original post, this is you being incorrect about the purpose hoarding serves (and whining about how unfair it is that YOU don't get off your 19 year old butt and find these deals for yourself, while they're still out there to be found), and it's not MY opinion correcting you: it's established economic fact, discovered centuries ago, and refined for the last several to the point of economic law.

So no...hoarding non-necessities is not detrimental to this, or ANY, community. All clear now? Please do not try to play the word games, and attempt to accuse someone of something totally and utterly unrelated to what they've actually said. They may fly over the slower minds, but makes you look the fool when you encounter someone who can disassemble them.

[COMICKINGS]

You know what really sucks is TICKETMASTER ... I've been the first person in line to get tix before and the second they go on sale and get mine,I'm frickin 25 rows back....

If that sucks, how about if all the tickets are sold through the back door while you're standing in line? How about if the tickets are for the best concert in 10 years - would that suck? How about if the guy who got the tickets follows up by insulting you, just because you mention that it sucks? Please, think about it.

/Magnus

Magnus,you just can't let it go can you....it must REALLY suck to be YOU.A big frickin crybaby.It looks like you still got an issue with me.Check your mailbox...I'm not gonna bring all the BS back on these boards,but I've got some words for you.

[oxygen]

So no...hoarding non-necessities is not detrimental to this, or ANY, community. All clear now? Please do not try to play the word games, and attempt to accuse someone of something totally and utterly unrelated to what they've actually said. They may fly over the slower minds, but makes you look the fool when you encounter someone who can disassemble them.

when i used ideologies, i was referring to the topic at hand, not a life philosophy (which i think you may have understood it as). either way, i can assure you i was not trying to be subversive, merely trying to clarify.

[dave]

wow. i tried to read everything everyone said-so i wouldn't repeat anything...but i got tired. not that i'm saying that i agreed with ken...

someone said that once these books have been "hoarded" by the collectors, they will never again see the light of day, but also said that those books should have just been left there for someone else to "find". the problem here, in this specific case is: everyone WAS looking for solar #6 during the initial hey-dey of valiant-but most of us could not find one. why? because they had been purchased. sometimes perhaps 20 copies by the same person. but when the bottom fell out, the books came back, and sat.
private collections are not permanent, even in this second mini-hey day i've seen at lest 3 people pop up on the boards and offer their entire collection (for free-or you pay the gas money...i'm not even talking about the black diamond collection) so, the books will more than likely reenter the market.

the good thing about them being in say, my collection, is that i try to take care of my books, i value them. books in 1/4 bins or even back issue bins are not usually "valued". if they were, someone else would have bought the eight vvss issues i found in the discount bins, or the 10 or so golds and platinums. how many people saw the books i saw? how many had a computer? in fact I MYSELF passed up the bloodshot and x-o's because they dindn't have the vvss stamps on them so even KNOWING that vvss books existed, and that they were valuable i passed-figuring these were "worthless" signed books...lucky for me no one "less ignorant" than me beat me to them!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

How many of you have been outbid by Stanchek71 on E-bay in the last couple years?

And how many of you have been outbid by....well....Timdrake72, Marykateweavson, you_lost_deal!, Im_gonna_snipe_you_sucka, timberweave, Jackosnose56...

er....there's more.....

I bought my books long ago when I was bidding against Hillman, Sonic, & Greg for Unity 0 reds & Harbinger 0 pinks under $10 each.

Don't forget me!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I also love taking long weekends roaming the countryside looking for hole-in-the-wall comic shops. Sorting discount comics takes the stress out of my job. Something exhilarating to me about not knowing what the next sort will bring. If I find any key book (VALIANT or otherwise) in a discount bin then I will buy the book. I have bought tons recently that way. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my collection is truely "rescued" because the books I have were wanted by vertually no one when I bought them. I remember buying a vvss lot of something like 50 books with every embossed book included in triplicate with extras for something like $20 shipped. This was 3-4 years ago on E-bay & no one even bid against me. I dropped the start bid several days before auction end & never was bid against. Am I evil because I have a ton of VVSS sitting in boxes? Nobody else wanted 'em. I think people should be more upset with themselves for not realizing how great VALIANT is earlier on... ~Erskine

This is really the heart of the matter. If you (the general you) were collecting books in the mid to late 90's, and DID NOT buy Valiants when you had the chance...

Too damn bad.

Tough luck for you.

And if you didn't START collecting until after that.....well, good luck on the hunt. As I've said before, DOZENS of times, it's STILL not too late!

Get them NOW, while you can, and while they're still stupidly cheap. Yes, ok, maybe not CEAR or Unity Red...but those are VARIANTS...

You can get EVERY SINGLE regular pre-unity book, with the exception of about 10 of them, for COVER PRICE OR LESS....

STILL.

So DO it!

Don't WAIT!

Oh, and if you DO wait, or you missed out....

Well, how many folks you think are gonna sell me a Batman #2 for $100?

Well, hey, that's what it Guided for in 1975.....too bad I was 3, huh?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I could care less about Aug because I don't even deal with those books, but I do have a problem when people buy countless copies of rare books. Take for instance the guy who bought 22 or however many copies of Solar #6. That's 21 less people who could walk into the comic store and pick up an amazing book for a couple cents. These are supposed to be such great stories, and it's sad when the books just wither away in collections in closets (maybe he's not going to store those books in a collection, but many people have and will continue to do so). And once those books hit the collector circuit, they'll never come out. It's just a cycle between more and more collectors, cutting off any hopes of new readers experiencing them. Maybe I'm just bitter because I can't find/afford these books, but oh well, it's still disheartening to me.


edit : I should have read all the posts because I realize now that mine is similar to the one before me. At least I know someone's on my side.

Half of what I was going to say was said by Dawg, so I'll just re-iterate...those books were in that store owners stock for 10+ years. No one wanted to buy them, though EVERYONE had the opportunity to do so. It's not like it was, say, Superman #75 which were selling for $10 THE DAY THEY CAME OUT. You cannot, in this case, make ANY claim that people were denied even the opportunity to buy them, nor can you reasonably impose a limit on such books..they were there for TEN YEARS.

Your premise is incorrect, and, in fact, entirely contrary to what really happens. Hoarding of books is not only NOT detrimental to the community, it's net effect overall is positive. Here's why:

As with anything in life, we only ever really treasure something if we EARN it. If you are playing a game, and the rules are such that 'everyone wins', and there are no losers....you will not EVER value that experience for what it is. The guy who bought those 21 copies of Magnus #6 did, indeed, earn it, by doing the legwork to FIND them in the first place. Even if he didn't pay much in CASH, he still paid in time and effort.

Likewise, if those 21 copies were just given to 21 different people, some of whom might read them, some of whom might not, but ALL of whom would regard them as 'less than desirable' because, hey, they were FREE, so how much could they really be WORTH? (yes, this seems contrary to logic, but it's in step with human nature, which attaches a value, usually monetary, to EVERYTHING...if something is FREE....it's probably only 'worth', in the eyes of the receiver, what was paid for it.)

But...if it COST something (in terms of time, money, effort, or all three)...then that thing will have PERCEIVED VALUE in the eyes of the purchaser, at the VERY least what he/she paid for it in time, money, and/or effort, and quite often more. The purchase BELIEVES that the item is worth such and such a 'price', because they were willing to pay that 'price' to obtain the item(s).

So, now, all these books that are hoarded in a set amount of collections, they are UNobtainable (currently) by ANYONE (say, on eBay) for LESS THAN a certain amount (and, in cases like Harbinger #1, that amount is no less than $10 in NM...or 5 TIMES cover) because that is the 'lower limit' to which I and many other have set the bar. That means Harb #1 has an ACTUAL VALUE of no less than $10, because that is the minimum that the market has determined the book is 'worth'.

Therefore, because the items not only have PERCEIVED value (you think they're worth more than 'a few cents')....but they have ACTUAL value (someone else came along and paid a price 'more than zero')...then other people will recognize that value and be inspired to perhaps 'check out' VALIANT comics, and this whole big cycle comes about that we are witnessing now. This, as you probably realize, is not only NOT detrimental....it's extremely positive for the community as a whole, even to the point that interest and demand becomes such that the characters are published again, which, in MY eyes, is the ultimate goal.

So...you give something away, interest may or may not be there, but because it COST nothing to the receiver, their reaction will be, at best, 'eh', there's no real interest in the property, character, or company, and nothing happens (which is detrimental to the community.) BUT...you make the receiver EARN the item (either by paying current market rate for it, or by discovering it languishing in a tucked away bin somewhere) and they will value the item much more highly, interest is increased, others hear about what some 'nut' was willing to pay, and demand increases proportionally. And VOILA! A positive effect on the community. Hoarding decreases the available cheap supply, which increases the asking price for the remaining supply, which increases the interest in said supply, which proportionately increases the interest in the items themselves, and the community as a whole. Thus....no detriment, only positive.


I think you nailed it on the head when you said you were bitter about not being able to find these books. It's just sour grapes. I was bitter about missing out on all the super high grade keys of the late 80's being locked away for over a decade (like Cap #100 for $12 in 1988) by the time I got into comics (late 89/early 90), but it did me no good, so I focused all that energy into getting MY collection built. Do I need 200 copies of Justice League #1? No. But they are worth MORE to me than 25¢, and I'll buy any and all of them, because...and here's the kicker....currently, NO ONE ELSE WANTS THEM for that price. And...if no one else wants them, why does it matter if *I* do? And that was the case with Valiants for almost an entire decade. Funny thing is, there's a store in my area that has long boxes of them for $1...and, over the past five years, I've wanted to buy all of them, but he only lets me buy 20-30 at a time, because he thinks 'someone else may want them, and I want to give them that opportunity if they do'...which is fine...but all that time, he's wasting resources on storing them, and taking the chance that it might be YEARS before they sell again. But...that's what HE wants to do, they're HIS books, so that's the way it is. I guarantee, it costs him more in time and resources to keep them around than what he would realize on a return if he sold them all to me, but again....that's HIS right.

I didn't get to buy Spiderman #1 for 12 cents, mainly because it predated ME by 10 years. Should I tell everyone who owns one 'hey...it's not FAIR that you all get one, and I don't!'...I didn't get to buy it for $30 when I was born, nor $500 when I was 10. I COULD have bought it for $3000 when I was 20, but it wasn't something I DESIRED more than I desired a nice car. Did I miss out? Eh. Not really. There has never been a time in MY lifetime that a Spiderman #1 was worth the market price TO ME. If I could find a NM copy of Spidey #1 for $5,000 NOW...I'd jump at it. But, I don't really have that opportunity, so why be bitter about it?

And if someone DID have the opportunity (as I did, and all of us have at one point or another..I own NO copies of Ultimate Spiderman #1, never have, but it was a $3 book in 2000 ) to buy these books on the cheap, and chose not to pursue it....well....then they're just whining.

Let me offer this advice for you: Valiants are still cheap on eBay. If you want A copy, buy it NOW. You will find that, in the not too distant future, YOU will be able to say 'yeah, I bought my Solar run off of eBay for cover price, 12 YEARS after they came out!!' when the first 10 are selling for $25 or more each. If you're bitter about not being able to buy 21 copies of Magnus #6 for however many cents, go out and find them YOURSELF....it's worth it, BELIEVE me, when you find something like that. Hell, I got all excited last year when I bought 20 gold Deathmate books for 50 cents each!

So...don't be bitter, just get out there and get them NOW, before it's too late. You have the opportunity NOW, you've been informed....so don't WASTE it! You'll be glad you did!

Ok, so I'm tooting my own horn, but this was a DAMN good post! Read it!

[cobra_commander]

Yeah its a pretty good post. Some excellent points. Don't know where you dug this thread out of but its an interesting topic.

But can you stop bringing up comic prices before the eighties! Its bad enough reading ads in old comics with the prices of keys like Cap 100!

I don't see any difference between the comic market, the stock market, or the friggin vegetable market. Its market forces. Thats capatalism. No use crying about it if you can't get something you want.

And wtf happened with comickings and magnus?! 2 of the greatest VALIANT art collections...

[slym2none]

ZWH just wants the Lazarus Award for this week.....





-slym

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Yeah its a pretty good post. Some excellent points. Don't know where you dug this thread out of but its an interesting topic.

But can you stop bringing up comic prices before the eighties! Its bad enough reading ads in old comics with the prices of keys like Cap 100!

I don't see any difference between the comic market, the stock market, or the friggin vegetable market. Its market forces. Thats capatalism. No use crying about it if you can't get something you want.

And wtf happened with comickings and magnus?! 2 of the greatest VALIANT art collections...

I've been reading Thor #337-382 (The Simonson run), and almost every issue has an ad by Mile High or 1,000,000 comics, and every single time I check the price of Spiderman #129....

Still $2.50.

Sigh.

J&S had some ads back then, too.

Batman #151-200, $2.50, all VG.

For VF copies, double the price.

Sigh.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

And wtf happened with comickings and magnus?! 2 of the greatest VALIANT art collections...