HARBINGER #1 DISCUSSION THREAD! FULL SPOILERS!

[Blood of Heroes]

So who do you all think gives and who receives in the relationship? Joe seems like the driver.

What do you think this is, the Big 2? No gay couple gimmicks to sell books here. Just great characters, stories and art.

In Shooter's Valiant, the original Pete was supposed to be gay. It's possible the new Valiant will take this road too.

Has that ever been confirmed, or is that still speculation?

If so, confirmed by whom?

[400yrs]

So who do you all think gives and who receives in the relationship? Joe seems like the driver.

What do you think this is, the Big 2? No gay couple gimmicks to sell books here. Just great characters, stories and art.

In Shooter's Valiant, the original Pete was supposed to be gay. It's possible the new Valiant will take this road too.

Has that ever been confirmed, or is that still speculation?

If so, confirmed by whom?

I could swear I heard it in a Shooter interview. OTV?

[etos45]

So who do you all think gives and who receives in the relationship? Joe seems like the driver.

What do you think this is, the Big 2? No gay couple gimmicks to sell books here. Just great characters, stories and art.

In Shooter's Valiant, the original Pete was supposed to be gay. It's possible the new Valiant will take this road too.

Has that ever been confirmed, or is that still speculation?

If so, confirmed by whom?

I believe in the Unity 2000 script it was "confirmed" by Shooter when the "Shooter Universe" Pete came out gay. I don't have the script in front of me, but when it was mentioned something made him gay. Outside of that, my only facts come from reading this board.

[Blood of Heroes]

So who do you all think gives and who receives in the relationship? Joe seems like the driver.

What do you think this is, the Big 2? No gay couple gimmicks to sell books here. Just great characters, stories and art.

In Shooter's Valiant, the original Pete was supposed to be gay. It's possible the new Valiant will take this road too.

Has that ever been confirmed, or is that still speculation?

If so, confirmed by whom?

I believe in the Unity 2000 script it was "confirmed" by Shooter when the "Shooter Universe" Pete came out gay. I don't have the script in front of me, but when it was mentioned something made him gay. Outside of that, my only facts come from reading this board.

As long as I'm not missing something. I'm still operating under the assumption that while some people think he is/was supposed to be gay, nothing from the original Valiant actually says one way or the other.

[Zaphod]

I was a bit disappointed that Pete wasn't gay, though there were undertones that he is quite close with Joe. Could it be that he is still confused sexually or bisexual?

Not that I think any of this is really all that important to the story, they seemed to be trying to hit at the uncertainty and disorientation that comes with teenagers these days.

Would there be such a problem if Peter was gay? Would it be considered to be only done for the shock value or to sell monthly pamphlets? I suppose it was fairly strange having Storm take over leadership of The X-Men too, I am sure or giving Luke Cage his own title but I think it would be equally bigoted to ruckus over this.

[Blood of Heroes]

Would there be such a problem if Peter was gay?

I don't see it as a problem, just unnecessary. Everything about the story works without him being gay, so what's the point?

[etos45]

Would there be such a problem if Peter was gay?

I don't see it as a problem, just unnecessary. Everything about the story works without him being gay, so what's the point?

I would flip that statement. What would it help the story to make him straight? In reality, it doesn't matter either way... at least to me.

[Blood of Heroes]

Would there be such a problem if Peter was gay?

I don't see it as a problem, just unnecessary. Everything about the story works without him being gay, so what's the point?

I would flip that statement. What would it help the story to make him straight? In reality, it doesn't matter either way... at least to me.

Um, because that's normal?

in my humble opinion...

[Ryan]

Oh man, loved this issue. I wasn't expecting a lot since I only liked the original Harbinger 1-6, and not much after that and the art in the previews didn't look that appealing.

But whoa, that was good. The art grew on me once I got into the story. The story was well crafted and I could really identify with Pete even though he was doing some rough stuff. The page where he forces Kris to kiss him gave me chills. Well done guys!

[Brother Darque]

wow, Pete using his powers to make Kris fall in love with him feels even wronger the second time around................

[MoonChild]

Yea, really made me feel like wow this kids seriously *SQUEE* up! Which makes sense so its great! Lovin what Dysart's doing with Harada!

[kevinbastos]

wow, Pete using his powers to make Kris fall in love with him feels even wronger the second time around................

Funny - as a kid reading - I didn't see a 'problem' with it. Maybe it's the way I read them. Starting in Unity, then getting the revelation that he 'released' Kris, then seeing the hypnotism.

Perhaps I was a much sicker kid, and I would have done that.

Either way, reading it now sent a shiver up my spine.

[rpellech83]

While I did like the idea of Pete and Flamingo at the end of issue 25, I think this time around I'd like to see Kristi and Pete actually fall in love. Since she will be a part of the series, I hope she's the one to help make Pete more human and that they both develop actual feelings for each other over time. In my opinion that would be the most interesting way to progress past this initial terrible act from Pete.

[BugsySig]

Would there be such a problem if Peter was gay?

I don't see it as a problem, just unnecessary. Everything about the story works without him being gay, so what's the point?

I would flip that statement. What would it help the story to make him straight? In reality, it doesn't matter either way... at least to me.

While personally it would not matter to me, the relationship between Pete and Kris was so central to the original that it would be A) strange if Pete had turned out to have been gay, and B) if he were to be written as such now.

The original run had a lot of heterosexual references regarding Pete: the relationship with Kris, the formation of his "harem" as he recruits all females at first and hesitates to recruit Torque, and Pete's attraction to Flamingo. I suppose one could twist any of that to meet the gay characterization but that would seem to take a lot more effort than taking it at face value.

[The Dirt Gang]

Good first issue. I'm lukewarm on the art but like the tone of the story. I think Pete getting into Kris' head is far creepier this time around, especially, given that she tells him that he's creepy and to leave her alone. Is it implied that they sleep together? I wasn't sure. But if so that's going into some really dark territory.

Who's Joe Irons? Was he in VH1? I like Joe's confidence in the face of everything. I wonder what he's seen Pete do in the past.

I love Harada showing up as a talking dog, perhaps the best part for me. Also, I can't help but notice an interesting parallel between this issue and XO#2. Pete and Toyo in the garden and Aric slaving away in the Vine garden. I don't really think there is anything there just found it interesting.

Tull definitely has an alien vibe but could also just be aside effect of the mind wipes. I thought Evans did a good job of conveying that in his facial expressions. Tull had a very blank look.

Looking forward to issue 2!

[Dr. Solar]

Would there be such a problem if Peter was gay?

I don't see it as a problem, just unnecessary. Everything about the story works without him being gay, so what's the point?

I thought the point in the original was the Pete-Kris-John love triangle that existed. In that case, it was central to the plot.

From what I remember, that last "I love you" word balloon that you see while Pete is in John's head as he dies was supposed to have a leader to Pete, but they cut the leader at the last minute to "play it safer".

[Zaphod]

I think this time around Pete's little mind *SQUEE* with Kris is worse because originally he renounced the decision like 3-4 panels later and apologized and that is when Kris told him if he ever did that to her again that she'd kill him.

This time around, we don't get that immediate retraction and I like it.

Pete always seemed to me to be too much of a *SQUEE* and Harada was too overtly bad to make the tension there anything other than obvious. I like that they are drawing it out, the story is painting Harada as the good guy without an overt evil agenda.

Very curious who Tull works for, it would be cool if it had to with this universe's version of H.A.R.Dcorps but Harada's earliest concerns in V1 was his knowledge of the Spider Aliens existence and his attempts to erradicate their base on the moon. I am leaning towards Tull working for the Vine.

I re-read the book before bed last night, have come to the conclusion that the 2nd to last panel is a human foot breaking Joe's discarded pill and my only real gripe with it (don't mind the art, it doesn't stand out but it didn't distract me either) was the term 'Psiots'

I could see a want to not use the term 'Harbinger' to describe what Pete and Toyo and others assuredly can do, but I don't much care for that term either.

8/10

I haven't collected monthly 'pamphlets' in almost 20 years, Valiant is what brought me back to the game but depending on the next few issues, this could be the first title I see dropping depending on how they walk the line they are walking.

[BugsySig]

I re-read the book before bed last night, have come to the conclusion that the 2nd to last panel is a human foot breaking Joe's discarded pill and my only real gripe with it (don't mind the art, it doesn't stand out but it didn't distract me either) was the term 'Psiots'.

On second (or maybe it's 4th) inspection, this time on a higher res screen, I have switched my allegiance to the "Human foot" side.

It makes sense since Pete had been asleep and was not wearing shoes when he went outside to talk to the dog/Harada.

If that is the case, it could still be an ominous allusion to Harad's minpulation ro a statement of the end of Pete's self-medicating.

...or some times a bear is just a bear.

[greg]

Who's Joe Irons? Was he in VH1?

Joe was Pete's best friend, shown the earliest Harbinger books (#0-#1). Harada has Joe killed to get him out of the way.
There are also some flashback Joe stories later in Harbinger.

[The Dirt Gang]

...or some times a bear is just a bear.

So you're saying Pete's gay!?!

[Zaphod]

I re-read the book before bed last night, have come to the conclusion that the 2nd to last panel is a human foot breaking Joe's discarded pill and my only real gripe with it (don't mind the art, it doesn't stand out but it didn't distract me either) was the term 'Psiots'.

On second (or maybe it's 4th) inspection, this time on a higher res screen, I have switched my allegiance to the "Human foot" side.

It makes sense since Pete had been asleep and was not wearing shoes when he went outside to talk to the dog/Harada.

If that is the case, it could still be an ominous allusion to Harad's minpulation ro a statement of the end of Pete's self-medicating.

...or some times a bear is just a bear.

I wondered briefly if it was actually meant to be showing Harada morphing from dog into human and stepping on the pill, but it probably was just Pete's foot.

I don't recall if they showed Pete wearing any footwear and I don't think Toyo would actually put himself in the position to be there....though Joe pointed out he could see the dog as well so it wasn't just that Harada was in Pete's head.

orrrrrrr maybe Toyo was projecting to both Pete and Joe?

yep. Valiants back.

[Dr. Solar]

One of the biggest problems I have approaching this issue is letting go of the classic Harada character, and not letting what I know of classic Harada coloring how I interpret this new version of Harada.

Has Harada been manipulating Joe and Pete this whole time? Did he manipulate events to put things in the place we see them at the end of issue 1?

Looking at this through the lense of what we know about classic Harada, I would think that yes, he is manipulating everything. When I forget that, and look at this purely through the lense of what we see in this issue, I lean towards thinking that he isn't manipulating things.

[Zaphod]

While I did like the idea of Pete and Flamingo at the end of issue 25, I think this time around I'd like to see Kristi and Pete actually fall in love. Since she will be a part of the series, I hope she's the one to help make Pete more human and that they both develop actual feelings for each other over time. In my opinion that would be the most interesting way to progress past this initial terrible act from Pete.

Episode 73 of the OTV podcast gives a bit of a spoiler on probable (definate?) upcoming events in Harbinger that make this, unlikely.

It is an incredibly cool spoiler, btw.

[Zaphod]

One of the biggest problems I have approaching this issue is letting go of the classic Harada character, and not letting what I know of classic Harada coloring how I interpret this new version of Harada.

Has Harada been manipulating Joe and Pete this whole time? Did he manipulate events to put things in the place we see them at the end of issue 1?

Looking at this through the lense of what we know about classic Harada, I would think that yes, he is manipulating everything. When I forget that, and look at this purely through the lense of what we see in this issue, I lean towards thinking that he isn't manipulating things.

I get the feeling you are right, he hasn't been manipulating things...yet. V1 was guilty of telling alot of the plot through character exposition rather than through the visual medium that is comics. I think it would be much more powerful to actually *show* Harada turn from trusted ally to manipulative villian rather than have Harada tell us about it as most pulp fiction villians are wont to do.

[rpellech83]

Hey Zaphod,

Are you talking about the episode that already aired or are you on Only the Valiant's podcast team and are referring to upcoming spoilers. I figure even if Kris and Torque get together it doesn't mean she and Pete don't eventually get together. It easily could have happened in V1.