DC Relaunch Story Discussions ONLY (no market info or spec)

[caxiotis]

I like star trek, tng, ds9 , voyager, enterprise, all of the movies, the new movie and I consider myself an elitist

[Knightt]

Just read:

Animal Man #3 and it was amazing (5/5). This is the best book of the year. Issue three has me captivated and I can't wait for the next issue

Batwoman #3 (3/5) - Still good and consistent with prior issues. I think i would like this series more if I sat down and read the first three issues in a row. It has a slow pace, but enjoyable.

Batman #3 (3.5/5) - Enjoying the Snyder run. Still getting used to Cappulo's art again. Excited to see what happens next.

Aquaman #3 - (4/5) - This issue had more action and was better than the last. I still want Aquaman to have more confidence.

Swamp Thing #3 (3.5/5) - Better than issue number #2. This story has mad potential and I think is somehow going to intersect with Animal Man. I am excited to see what happens next.

Action Comics #3 (2/5) - Officially dropped. Just not my thing.

Wonder Woman #3 (2.5/5) - This dropped off quite a bit for me. I really enjoyed the first two issues and this one was just okay. Maybe because the story was jumping around a lot, but I am still going to keep reading for now.

I'm still waiting on my #3s. I'm really looking forward to Animal Man, Batman and Aquaman.


I did pick up Supergirl #2 and #3 at a half off sale...... mainly for the Asrar art. Both of these were very light again.

If the first issue of the series was the plot of #1-2 combined or maybe even #1-3, this would've been fantastic. It's too decompressed to pay $3 for this.

I am waiting on my #3s as well but have been 'checking out' issues in the meantime and dangit, I find myself reading issues with a certain degree of excitement. Issues like:

Justice League Dark (!!)
Blackhawks
The Savage Hawkman
I, Vampire (!!)
Action Comics
Aquaman
Batman (!!)
Batman - The Dark Knight (!!)
Detective Comcis (!!)
Batgirl (!!)
Batwoman (!!)
Stormwatch
Grifter
Red Hood and the Outlaws (!!)
Suicide Squad (!!)
Resurrection Man (!!)
The Huntress
Catwoman

(!!) = Really like this title

EIGHTEEN DC COMICS !!!!!

And contemplating Deathstroke, Frankenstein, and Red Lanterns.

There must be something wrong with me.

[Tim]

Tim, I get your point, and totally respect that fact that you've given yourself a nice, neat jumping off point to dive into what you've missed in the era you love, but don't you think your Star Trek illustration of your point comes off as a bit elitist? I don't consider myself a Trekkie, I've never seen the entire original TV series, but I do love all of the original movies (yes, I even like "The Motion Picture") and Next Generation. I thought the new Star Trek movie was a great approach that balanced the cerebral approach of traditional Star Trek with the action/excitement that many people found lacking in the other franchises. I also thought the way that this franchise spawns from the original to be a VERY comic book-ish way of handling things with lots of touches that were Easter eggs for those acquainted with the original crew/stories.

To make a statement like you made about either Star Trek or DC in the context of their relaunches ("It's very exciting, but has nothing to do with Star Trek/DC.") comes off sounding like people who are newbies are lower than you and not as worthy of respect. In the case of either, isn't the discussion about the characters and stories, and the opportunity to include others in such a rich mythos a more valuable experience than to separate yourself or refuse to lower yourself to what's happening?

I think I'm being more "old fogey-ist" than elitist. An elitist Trekkie would have derided every aspect of the film and ridiculed anyone who enjoyed it. I, on the contrary, enjoyed it immensely and made it be known so.

I don't think that newbies aren't worthy of respect and I don't think I've ever made a comment to that effect. I am glad that people are enjoying these books. Like Draco, I'm also glad for the attention that it has brought back to the medium. If anything, DC Comics deciding that their audience is unable to become interested in a comic book that isn't a complete, from-the ground-up, restart shows a tremendous disrespect for the intelligence of their intended readers. When I was ten I picked up a Superman comic in the middle of a multi-issue story and I got along just fine. When I was 12, I picked up a Silver Surfer comic, also in the middle of a multi-part story and I enjoyed it just as well. I'm sure that a new reader today could be introduced in a similar fashion and somewhere along the way become a lifelong comics fan.

I heard a comics podcast the other day talking about how fast or slow the new DCU should introduce Kryptonite and what it's capable of. It was an absurd argument and most of the commentators said they thought that the Kryptonite angle should be a slow-build. EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT KRYPTONITE IS AND WHAT IT CAN DO! How is a slow-moving, excruciating story re-introducing us to what we already know anything less than a wank? Are writers that un-creative these days that the best they can do is start over so they can blatantly and unabashedly tell us the same stories over and over again? Are we that bankrupt for ideas?

Anyway...that's not what this is about. I suppose the gist of my first post was that I am glad people are enjoying these books,. but they simply just aren't for me.

In a way everyone's an elitist when it comes to things they love dearly, and comics fans are no exception. No comic book is ever as good as the one that hooked you. No story is as good as the one that first made you "get it". Everybody makes their own "Golden Age".

Sorry, man, I'm not trying to be a *SQUEE* or combative, believe it or not. Just facilitating a little discussion. Feel free to have me shut up and move on.

Not at all, man. Discussion is what it's all about here.

[400yrs]

Friends who know I'm a Trekkie asked me what I thought of the new Star Trek film when it came out and I'd always tell them that it was "a fantastic, fun, awesome movie that had absolutely nothing to do with Star Trek". That's how I feel about the new DCU (except for the fantastic, fun and awesome part).

True, and for the most part, that's accurate continuity wise (until they wrap it all back which will happen at some point).

One of the many things that I loved about the DCU it is that it tied into stories that I read when I was a kid and watched build, for better or worse, all of my adult life.

And those stories are still there like you said.

I fully admit that as a comics fan, personally I want to read stories that reference stories that I have already read and I don't even really give a sh!t if they're good or not.

DC catered to that attitude forever now and sales were shrinking. They had to try something. The problem that I see is that I really don't think they've done anything to expand comic book readership in general which is what really needs to happen. It's nice that they are getting some dollars that would usually go to Marvel books, but that does nothing for the industry in the long run and things will be right back to the same eventually.


And to bring it back into story discussion..... I really wanted to not like the new Flash. So after I read #1, I thought it was terrible. However, once I got past the bias that I had, I really liked it. The storytelling in the art is outstanding and brilliant.

[400yrs]

If anything, DC Comics deciding that their audience is unable to become interested in a comic book that isn't a complete, from-the ground-up, restart shows a tremendous disrespect for the intelligence of their intended readers. When I was ten I picked up a Superman comic in the middle of a multi-issue story and I got along just fine. When I was 12, I picked up a Silver Surfer comic, also in the middle of a multi-part story and I enjoyed it just as well. I'm sure that a new reader today could be introduced in a similar fashion and somewhere along the way become a lifelong comics fan.

I've heard this said before and I get the point, but I don't think the comic companies are battling or insulting readers' intelligence in this situation. I think the real enemies comic companies battle today are two things brought about by themselves which intertwine - pricing and decompression. Back in the old days, you'd read one comic and you'd get a complete / semi complete story that was part of a larger arc, but you could get the idea of what was going on and you could jump in pretty easily.

Today, you get so little story in a $3-4 comic book it is tough to jump into a story right in the middle. You have to buy many, many issues to get a real feel for what is going on. $3-4 a pop every month (or longer) for about 10 minutes of entertainment just isn't worth it in many cases.

The new DC did nothing to combat this. In fact, after reading Justice League and Supergirl I think they've allowed it to get much, much worse. If a comic company is serious about getting non-comic readers to read single issue comic books, they'd make a shift back toward the silver age style of storytelling. Otherwise, everyone continues to write for the trade and the New DCU is just an expansion of that because they've done it for the whole universe from the ground up.

I heard a comics podcast the other day talking about how fast or slow the new DCU should introduce Kryptonite and what it's capable of. It was an absurd argument and most of the commentators said they thought that the Kryptonite angle should be a slow-build. EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT KRYPTONITE IS AND WHAT IT CAN DO! How is a slow-moving, excruciating story re-introducing us to what we already know anything less than a wank? Are writers that un-creative these days that the best they can do is start over so they can blatantly and unabashedly tell us the same stories over and over again? Are we that bankrupt for ideas?

Which podcast was that? That's a really stupid discussion.

[xodacia81]

If anything, DC Comics deciding that their audience is unable to become interested in a comic book that isn't a complete, from-the ground-up, restart shows a tremendous disrespect for the intelligence of their intended readers. When I was ten I picked up a Superman comic in the middle of a multi-issue story and I got along just fine. When I was 12, I picked up a Silver Surfer comic, also in the middle of a multi-part story and I enjoyed it just as well. I'm sure that a new reader today could be introduced in a similar fashion and somewhere along the way become a lifelong comics fan.

I've heard this said before and I get the point, but I don't think the comic companies are battling or insulting readers' intelligence in this situation. I think the real enemies comic companies battle today are two things brought about by themselves which intertwine - pricing and decompression. Back in the old days, you'd read one comic and you'd get a complete / semi complete story that was part of a larger arc, but you could get the idea of what was going on and you could jump in pretty easily.

Today, you get so little story in a $3-4 comic book it is tough to jump into a story right in the middle. You have to buy many, many issues to get a real feel for what is going on. $3-4 a pop every month (or longer) for about 10 minutes of entertainment just isn't worth it in many cases.

The new DC did nothing to combat this. In fact, after reading Justice League and Supergirl I think they've allowed it to get much, much worse. If a comic company is serious about getting non-comic readers to read single issue comic books, they'd make a shift back toward the silver age style of storytelling. Otherwise, everyone continues to write for the trade and the New DCU is just an expansion of that because they've done it for the whole universe from the ground up.

I heard a comics podcast the other day talking about how fast or slow the new DCU should introduce Kryptonite and what it's capable of. It was an absurd argument and most of the commentators said they thought that the Kryptonite angle should be a slow-build. EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT KRYPTONITE IS AND WHAT IT CAN DO! How is a slow-moving, excruciating story re-introducing us to what we already know anything less than a wank? Are writers that un-creative these days that the best they can do is start over so they can blatantly and unabashedly tell us the same stories over and over again? Are we that bankrupt for ideas?

Which podcast was that? That's a really stupid discussion.

It is, and as for Tim's questions: Pretty sad that some fans might believe this would be a good thing, isn't it? Have they been condition to accept anything? I think the answer is yes. The neckbeards need to stop swallowing whatever the Big 2 put out. Hell, I don't read Superman anymore, but if I were Grant Morrison and heard this, I would quickly write a story where Krptonite came in and damn near kills Supes in about 3 pages, just to *SQUEE* with idiots like those on the podcast. No wonder DC and Marvel get away with murder, what with Magic the Gathering, War Hammer, Hero Clix loving neckbeards like those podcast tools ruling the roost.

[400yrs]

I just read Aquaman #3. You know what is awesome about this comic book? Everything!

Aquaman #3 - (4/5) - This issue had more action and was better than the last. I still want Aquaman to have more confidence.

I don't have much experience with the character, but it seems like some of the back story that was hinted in this issue as well as his comments on the last page kind of show his thoughts / why he's not confident or headstrong or what have you.

[400yrs]

Wonder Woman #3 (2.5/5) - This dropped off quite a bit for me. I really enjoyed the first two issues and this one was just okay. Maybe because the story was jumping around a lot, but I am still going to keep reading for now.

I felt the same way. I feel like I missed an issue or something. I definitely need to re-read at least #2 and then go back and read this one. Part of this took place in the past and part in the present, right? I don't even know.....

I'll likely stick through the first arc, but it's teetering for me.

The art is awesome though. This is the kind of style I'd like to see X-O Manowar done in, but I bet we'll get a technical style.

[Knightt]

I am still surprised at the number of DC comics I am reading. Although I am not very pleased with DC's pushing the sex and violence to the point of being ridiculous. I mean, I "am" reading more DC titles but I roll my eyes at the obvious "money shots".

[400yrs]

The titilation sells apparently, but when I see that crap, I'm out.

[Knightt]

Catwoman #1 was a big let down with the path they went down... almost pornographic.

THIS IS A BATMAN CHARACTER and look what the hell is going on... the writing, however; keeps me coming back to read more. I recently read The Huntress and while I know nothing of the character, I liked the issue but saw blatant sex references in both writing and covert visuals like a sexy thong on a clothesline. Really ? A thong on a clothes line ? At least the Huntresss is curvalicious to say the least and is consistently drawn.

I thought I would be disgusted with Batwoman with its constant lesbian reminders but I round it to be WELL drawn (love the use of photo like art when the Batwoman is in uniform) and the sexuality played down. It was there but not in your face. It is a facet and not a focus.

Batgirl... VERY pleased with this title and I've missed Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. The uniform colors never fail to impress and seeing her panic but overcome her fears of being shot in the spine again, make her very human. This and the fact that she knows she cannot physically beat her foe, but rather she must use her head. Very fresh title.

[ian_house]

Catwoman #1 was a big let down with the path they went down... almost pornographic.

THIS IS A BATMAN CHARACTER and look what the hell is going on... the writing, however; keeps me coming back to read more. I recently read The Huntress and while I know nothing of the character, I liked the issue but saw blatant sex references in both writing and covert visuals like a sexy thong on a clothesline. Really ? A thong on a clothes line ? At least the Huntresss is curvalicious to say the least and is consistently drawn.

I thought I would be disgusted with Batwoman with its constant lesbian reminders but I round it to be WELL drawn (love the use of photo like art when the Batwoman is in uniform) and the sexuality played down. It was there but not in your face. It is a facet and not a focus.

Batgirl... VERY pleased with this title and I've missed Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. The uniform colors never fail to impress and seeing her panic but overcome her fears of being shot in the spine again, make her very human. This and the fact that she knows she cannot physically beat her foe, but rather she must use her head. Very fresh title.

Couldn't disagree with this post any more...

I think Batgirl is the worst of the new female Bat books and more offensive to me than any of the others. It's painful to see them throw Babs around and tease the disability thing every two minutes, especially from a writer who, a few months earlier, said the exact opposite. I'm sorry to say I hate this book and probably won't buy any more of Simone's work again (a shame after I have complete runs of things like BoP and Secret Six).

I see where you are coming from about Catwoman, but she has always been a sexy character, right back to her origin. It's a well written and enthralling comic with a sexy and empowered lead female... unlike most comics with sexy leads (which do border on pornographic). Plus it isn't like we haven't seen sex scenes in Bat books before (Talia? Catwoman?). I've also read some of the new Huntress and it's very close to the previous version, nothing new there (and are thongs pornographic? It's a pretty popular pair of underwear these days).

Agreed about Batwoman, probably in my top 3 of the new DCU.

[Chiclo]

Catwoman #1 was a big let down with the path they went down... almost pornographic.

THIS IS A BATMAN CHARACTER and look what the hell is going on... the writing, however; keeps me coming back to read more. I recently read The Huntress and while I know nothing of the character, I liked the issue but saw blatant sex references in both writing and covert visuals like a sexy thong on a clothesline. Really ? A thong on a clothes line ? At least the Huntresss is curvalicious to say the least and is consistently drawn.

I thought I would be disgusted with Batwoman with its constant lesbian reminders but I round it to be WELL drawn (love the use of photo like art when the Batwoman is in uniform) and the sexuality played down. It was there but not in your face. It is a facet and not a focus.

Batgirl... VERY pleased with this title and I've missed Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. The uniform colors never fail to impress and seeing her panic but overcome her fears of being shot in the spine again, make her very human. This and the fact that she knows she cannot physically beat her foe, but rather she must use her head. Very fresh title.

I agree in three counts out of four. The art doesn't win me over on Batwoman.

Catwoman is just short of pornographic. I guess it jumps out at me more because when I put the book down, it goes into my wife's to-read pile.

[Knightt]

To each his own. My experience with DC in the past has been Batman, Dective Comics, and Green Lantern Rebirth and random crap (and it ereally has been crap, most of DC is random crap but at least these days it is tolerable crap, lol). So with that being said, my shock and distaste are more than valid. I've known DC all my life in the capacity that I have described and none of them have been raunchy in nature nor VERY violent in nature. Even the breaking of Batman's back was handled with kid gloves, knowing that kids are reading their books and I have always thought of them that way. So to see Catwoman obviously having sex with Batman is to me, over the line. At this point my Batman universe can no longer be shared with my kids. I think the sex/violencein DC comics that I experienced in the past was handled much more discreetly and what I've read was not trying to earn any type of Mature rating. At this point in the DC lineup I would not be surprised if I saw Bats getting a blow job and Harley Quinn putting her finger up his butt. You would... ok "I" would never have even thought this would have been possible in the past but DC's seemingly successful attempt to publish big boy comics comes as s surprise to me. It disappoints me in an equal amount because instead of creating more interesting characters with depth and life, instead of upping the bar and making their writers engage in good storytelling, they are pandering to the sweaty palmed fan boys who notice every subtle sex innuendo that is offered up on every other page.

I've said that I am reading more DV books than ever before but it is addmitedly for the wrong reasons IMO. Thongs on a clothesline no big deal? To me it is because it is an obvious plant. Writers and artists use specific words and specific imagery for a specific reason. Why not use a pair of boxer shorts or a tshirt? Why not? Because the creative team CHOSE to do so. Because it is sexual and IMO you do not need to lower the standard in order to sell your book. The creative staff know exactly what they are doing to get these books to sell and the oxymoron ls in the very words that I am even usung, "creative team"... It is not that creative to put sex and gratuitous violence into a book to garner interest. You have Batwoman which could be a very sexually charged book being well written and very well drawn and it is being done without the sophomoric sexual imagery that is litered throughout the lesser written titles. "Meh, we know that the writing in this book is not the best. Let's NOT work with the writer to make it a really good book, instead let's show some boobs, ratchet up the violence level, and put some panties just lying around to distract the less intelligent males of the society." It is an age old trick and what a bummer that DC is using it. This tactic is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS. I got it, it's working... Sales are up and hey, I am even buying more DC books but I am not going to lay back, spread my legs, stare at the ceiling, and pretend this is the best $2.99 screwing that I have ever had either.

[leonmallett]

The violence level has been ramped up at Dc for sevral years. Not on a line-wide-every-issue scale, but it has been there.

Examples include Terra Man torn in half (either 52 or infinite Crisis, I don't recall which one); Blitzkreig running through civilians including children at the Heywood family picnic in JSA (the last volume); Superboy Prime dismembering and murdering dozens of characters in Infinite Crisis; add in Mister Miracle's genital area being attacked with a pair of wire cutters in Mister Miracle as he is tortured (no we don't see in graphic detail what is happening in that case, but the figures are all posed in a telling way in that panel), and I am sure many examples i do not even know about.

The point is that DC has ramped up their graphic violence years ago, and now sexual themes are following suit.

Not the DC I grew up with, and one I am starting to distance myself from.

[IMJ]

I am still surprised at the number of DC comics I am reading. Although I am not very pleased with DC's pushing the sex and violence to the point of being ridiculous. I mean, I "am" reading more DC titles but I roll my eyes at the obvious "money shots".

I'm only reading Capullo's Batman, Captain Atom, the two GL books and Justice League.
So far all I've seen are some great action linework in Batman, dilluted panels in Captain Atom, more boring colorform nonsense and a dude with red skin in the two GL books, and it took Justice League 3 issues before we even saw Lee's Wonder Woman.

What titles are you reading with the money shots, man?

[Tim]

Not the DC I grew up with, and one I am starting to distance myself from.

Me too, sadly.

[Knightt]

What titles are you reading with the money shots, man?

Mostly Swank, Juggs, and Midget Muffin Monthly. I only read the last title because I get it.......... half off the cover price.

[400yrs]

Swamp Thing #3 (3.5/5) - Better than issue number #2. This story has mad potential and I think is somehow going to intersect with Animal Man. I am excited to see what happens next.

This issue was awesome. The art was excellent and it wasn't really noticeable that there were two different artists on it. Whatever it takes to keep Paquette stuff on it is good for me.

However, I have the same problem that I had with Wonder Woman..... I can't remember issue #2 at all. C'mon DC. Give me a friggin recap page, please!!!!! Ugh!

[Knightt]

The art in Animal Man looks solid enough and it sure as hell is on the gory side but try as I might, I can't get but a few pages into it and I just can't go on. Not that I ever liked Animal Man to begin with but this one even less. Same goes for Swamp Thing.

My sleeper hit in the New 52 is Red Hood and the Outlaws. As contrived as it is, I like the art and the light tone of the book.

I see Hawkman and Aquaman falling off the list here soon.

[BruceReville]

I hate to say it I dropped the entire line - one due to cost two due to the excitement wore off and overall the stories have been at best mediocre for me.

[Tim]

My sleeper hit in the New 52 is Red Hood and the Outlaws. As contrived as it is, I like the art and the light tone of the book.

I'm with you here, too. I gave this one a try out of loyalty to Kenneth Rocafort (loved his work on the last few issues of Action Comics Volume one) and I've been surprised at how much I've been enjoying it. I think it's hilarious that there isn't a single likeable character on the team. The art is tremendous, too. My only problem is the way Lobdell writes some of the dialogue. The ancient warrior woman, Ducra calling Jason Todd a putz (or something similar... I don't have the book in front of me.) and the young Buddha-like character speaking in modern vernacular were really off putting and felt silly. I think it was written for comic effect, but it just came off as stupid and non funny at all.

It's the comic book equivalent of a Michael Bay movie. Not Citizen Kane, some cringe-worthy moments of awfulness, lots of explosions, good-looking ladies, and great fun to read.

So far I'm still reading Aquaman, Supergirl, and Red Hood and the Outlaws. Dropped Flash, which I'll probably regret since I own every issue of Flash published since 1978. I'm happy for, but also surprised by all the people who are loving Flash right now. I think it's the most boring thing I've read lately.

[400yrs]

Dropped Flash, which I'll probably regret since I own every issue of Flash published since 1978. I'm happy for, but also surprised by all the people who are loving Flash right now. I think it's the most boring thing I've read lately.

The story isn't the best of the New 52, but the page layouts are brilliant. If the story itself developed a little faster, the book would be stronger. Issue #3 did not disappoint in this regard either.

The designs for Capt Cold look really sweet as well.

[Knightt]

If the story itself developed a little faster, the book would be stronger.

That's funny... cause it's, ya know, "The Flash".

[Tim]

The story isn't the best of the New 52, but the page layouts are brilliant.

I think I've passed the point where I care about page layouts and any technical aspect of comics. I just want to read stuff that's fun.