who would win a fight? Dr. Solar or Dr. Manhattan

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:18 pm

Chiclo wrote: We need to unban MotA just for this thread.

I like MOTA and think he needs to be unbanned, but he used to say (rant) that Seleski was from a parallel universe. Then when that seemed to indicate a multiverse in the VALIANT universe, he switched his statements and began stating that Seleski was from a "divergent timeline."

When Bedard wrote S:MOTA, there were several times where his shrink buddy (Paul?) stated that Phil was from a different dimension/universe and Phil never said, "No, no--it was a divergent timeline." True, he (shirnk-feiend) wasn't there, but Phil did confide in him. I'd imagine that, had Seleski ever said, "I was from a divergent timeline," shrink-friend would have quoted that.

Canon shows a declaration of parallel universe origin, with no denial, contradiction or clarification from Phil.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:39 pm

The one way that I can think of to instantly destroy a 13.7 billion plus year old universe (which would be very stable in universal terms) would be to monkey with the universal constants, things like the gravitational constant, Coulomb's constant, bonding strengths on the strong and weak nuclear levels or some would argue the unfolding of additional quantum dimensions into the macroscopic level. It is the balance between these basic universal forces that keep a universe existant.

Some (but quite critically not all) physicists would say that if one of these basic constants were changed a little bit, the universe would pop like a bubble. This is very literally changing the fabric of reality and changing the fabric of all reality and once. Big juju. The only time I have seen this sort of thing portrayed in comics was in Marvel: The End when Thanos literally absorbs the entire universe into himself and reboots it (again ignoring the size of the universe and the speed of light barriers) and even then he destroys to remake - quite a different process. We are talking beyond God-like powers and the sort of thing that is reserved for the Almighty himself.

Seleski was pretty overrun with grief. He was new to his powers and emotionally unstable when he put whatever whammy down he did at the end of Solar 0. If he subconsciously monkeyed with one of these constants (gravity? Trying to neuter the growing black hole?) accessing powers he either did not know he had or subconsciously blocked from himself thereafter, he could potentially have done something like that in which case the scales tip drastically in the Solar/Manhattan fight BUT that brings into question whether or not the universe could survive such a conflagration. Would the Earth survive such a fight? In a war of men, nobody counts the ants trampled beneath their feet.

Another impediment to making a proper prediction is the relatively few appearances of Dr. Manhattan. Solar had a 60 issue run in comics and appeared in quite a few more books and really got to flex his muscles and show off not only what he could do but what he couldn't do. Manhattan appears in a 12 issue limited series and that's it. At no point in those 12 issues does he really cut loose and test or show his boundaries. Conversely, we see the death of Solar in Magnus... 6?

steverino · Post by **steverino** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:27 pm

I'm still unconvinced that Dr. Manhattan would be anything more than a punching bag for Phil.

But then again, I'm always unconvinced.

Zaphod · Post by **Zaphod** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:03 pm

For Solar, Time was absolute. Manhattan lives in all times consecutively. Not to mention Manhattan is able to reconstruct himself on the molecular level.

That said, Jon lived in a world of mere mortals and has vast experience fighting foes who are on par with himself.

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:48 am

Chiclo wrote:Solar was bound by the speed of light and could not create tachyons

The Destroyer (in Magnus 64) wrote:I... saturated my energies with tachyon particles

Of course, both this and the discussion about alternate reality/timeline raise the question as the whether we can trust what the comic book characters say, or if they simply do not know what they are talking about. Then again, recreating universes has been shown both in Deathmate and its copy Zero Hour...

/Magnus

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:28 am

magnusr wrote:Of course, both this and the discussion about alternate reality/timeline raise the question as the whether we can trust what the comic book fans say, or if they simply do not know what they are talking about.

Fixed that for you.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:41 am

Dr Manhatten wins, but only if he wants to, simply due to his omni-temporal awareness allowing him to act when he needs to, should he choose to.

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:47 am

BloodOfHeroes wrote:
magnusr wrote:Of course, both this and the discussion about alternate reality/timeline raise the question as the whether we can trust what the comic book fans say, or if they simply do not know what they are talking about.
Fixed that for you.

Also a valid point

/Magnus

steverino · Post by **steverino** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:29 am

So, the victory may depend on what Solar does with the tachyon particles since we now know that he is capable of manipulating them and that's where Dr. Manhattan gets his precognition from.

X-O Dudeowar · Post by **X-O Dudeowar** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:02 pm

steverino wrote:
Chiclo wrote:
steverino wrote:
Tim wrote:Embarrased to say I've never read Watchmen (not embarrased to say I've never seen Watchmen), so I can't really say.
Just watch the movie. It was actually better. Much better!!
I tried to read that post allowed and it burned my tongue.

Why would you say such a thing, steverino?
I'm genuinely sorry.

I'm not an Alan Moore fan. I'm just not. I can't stand him at all. Watchmen was a great disappointment to me.

But I actually did like the movie.

I'ma ruin the credibility I don't have and concur with this.

Drift · Post by **Drift** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:30 pm

As well as seeing how he died we also see him get his arse handed to him a few times. He cannot beat Eclipse and has to trap him outside our dimension and he is b1tch-slapped in Unity and has to be rescued by others.

This is by creatures who are not in full control of their powers due to their thinking being limited by human constraints and in the case of Eclipse, plain madness. How can he possibly stand up to someone with complete control and understanding?

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:38 pm

Drift wrote:As well as seeing how he died we also see him get his arse handed to him a few times. He cannot beat Eclipse and has to trap him outside our dimension and he is b1tch-slapped in Unity and has to be rescued by others.

This is by creatures who are not in full control of their powers due to their thinking being limited by human constraints and in the case of Eclipse, plain madness. How can he possibly stand up to someone with complete control and understanding?

Plot device?

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:34 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
Drift wrote:As well as seeing how he died we also see him get his arse handed to him a few times. He cannot beat Eclipse and has to trap him outside our dimension and he is b1tch-slapped in Unity and has to be rescued by others.

This is by creatures who are not in full control of their powers due to their thinking being limited by human constraints and in the case of Eclipse, plain madness. How can he possibly stand up to someone with complete control and understanding?
Plot device?

What does Wolverine's son have to do with this?

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:35 pm

Chiclo wrote:
X-O HoboJoe wrote:
Drift wrote:As well as seeing how he died we also see him get his arse handed to him a few times. He cannot beat Eclipse and has to trap him outside our dimension and he is b1tch-slapped in Unity and has to be rescued by others.

This is by creatures who are not in full control of their powers due to their thinking being limited by human constraints and in the case of Eclipse, plain madness. How can he possibly stand up to someone with complete control and understanding?
Plot device?
What does Wolverine's son have to do with this?

Joe Q told me Daiken was really an Infinity Gem.

maraxusofkeld · Post by **maraxusofkeld** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:53 am

I would go with Dr. Manhatten for two reasons:

1. He can see his own future.
2. There are times when Solar doesn't act as intelligent as he should
3. The Dr. can reform himself. .

ian_house · Post by **ian_house** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:29 am

which Solar? I'd fancy him if he reformed with the destroyer!

Theres no way Manhattan would be able to compute Valiant Vision!

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:34 am

maraxusofkeld · Post by **maraxusofkeld** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:18 am

There's also no way Manhatten would be able to understand the later Valiant Universe

robb77 · Post by **robb77** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:59 pm

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:54 am

I'd like to throw in Captain Adam from Superman Beyond. The character is an amalgamation of Captain Atom and Dr Manhatten (that character of course inspired by Captain Atom), and serves as a commentary on Dr. Manhatten in some ways, but I had a sense of power from Superman Beyond that seemed in excess of what we ever saw with Dr Manhatten.

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:05 pm

Captain Manhattan would take it!

http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_Manhatt ... th-148611)

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:10 pm

A better comparison would be Doctor Everything.

JonesyAZ · Post by **JonesyAZ** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:24 pm

Chiclo wrote:A better comparison would be Doctor Everything.

I've seen it all...hahahaha.

So, with a name like Dr. Everything, does that mean his doctorate plaque would read:

Ph.D., Everything, emphasis in Everything, minor in Everything