MALEV WAR

[myron]

I will I can't wait to experience the Giffen Magnus issues...mainly because Magnus so far (i've read up to issue 42) has mostly been AWESOME! So, it's intriguing for me to see just how bad it got...

I'll be curious to hear your review. I really liked Giffen's work on MRF. In fact, they were some of my favorite Maggy issues, even.

<ack hack><cough cough>

'course everyone is entitled to their opinion...
*SQUEE* was terrible and that's all there is to it...

ungodly art
poor coloring
not to mention a story line that made a mockery of earlier magnus


but that's just my opinion..read it and find out for yourself

[myron]

It was a solid handicraft, and a skilled use of the technique of presenting an unknown situation and letting the reader slowly understand. It was also a very thorough destruction of the last remnants of the old Magnus.

/Magnus

It was, and I can only speculate that Giffen was given orders to make the book completely different. Given his apparent fondness for the character with the appearance of "Douglas, Robot Hunter" in his Metal Men backup [I'm basing this on having read about, but not having read, the issues], I can't see him doing it out of spite or vindictiveness. I just think they were well-told tales, even if many didn't like the events of those tales.

but they weren't even well told...they were disjoint and near incomprehensible

[JonesyAZ]

Okay...

...I have read the final 4 issues of Magnus, Robot Fighter (61-64). I have not yet purchased copies of the beginning of Giffen's run, but I just couldn't contain myself, and read these last four books.

And while I think it was "o-kay" at first, it was heartbreaking how the characters ended up...and the end of issue 64...wow...

I have to agree with most of y'all that the end of this series was not a good send-off of 1-A Jr. It totally felt like Giffen gave everyone the middle finger with this. And, in retrospect, I found his Punx series to be his general opinion of the comic "economy" during the time of their publication. Clearly he wasn't happy, I mean, who was? BUT...the reader had to suffer enough that their favorite books were slowly on their way out. Why make the last few issues suffer too?

Again, I think the premise of issues 61-64 was promising, but it made me feel as though nothing that came before mattered in the end.

Am I totally off base here?

[dhudson1]

Okay...

...I have read the final 4 issues of Magnus, Robot Fighter (61-64). I have not yet purchased copies of the beginning of Giffen's run, but I just couldn't contain myself, and read these last four books.

And while I think it was "o-kay" at first, it was heartbreaking how the characters ended up...and the end of issue 64...wow...

I have to agree with most of y'all that the end of this series was not a good send-off of 1-A Jr. It totally felt like Giffen gave everyone the middle finger with this. And, in retrospect, I found his Punx series to be his general opinion of the comic "economy" during the time of their publication. Clearly he wasn't happy, I mean, who was? BUT...the reader had to suffer enough that their favorite books were slowly on their way out. Why make the last few issues suffer too?

Again, I think the premise of issues 61-64 was promising, but it made me feel as though nothing that came before mattered in the end.

Am I totally off base here?

It has been so long since I read them, I can't remember. I am re-reading all the books now in the suggested reading order. Just got to Magnus 25.

However, all of Giffen's work has been hit or miss with me. I guess some of my favorite of his was the early Legion books from the earlier direct market days.

[xodacia81]

Okay...

...I have read the final 4 issues of Magnus, Robot Fighter (61-64). I have not yet purchased copies of the beginning of Giffen's run, but I just couldn't contain myself, and read these last four books.

And while I think it was "o-kay" at first, it was heartbreaking how the characters ended up...and the end of issue 64...wow...

I have to agree with most of y'all that the end of this series was not a good send-off of 1-A Jr. It totally felt like Giffen gave everyone the middle finger with this. And, in retrospect, I found his Punx series to be his general opinion of the comic "economy" during the time of their publication. Clearly he wasn't happy, I mean, who was? BUT...the reader had to suffer enough that their favorite books were slowly on their way out. Why make the last few issues suffer too?

Again, I think the premise of issues 61-64 was promising, but it made me feel as though nothing that came before mattered in the end.

Am I totally off base here?

It has been so long since I read them, I can't remember. I am re-reading all the books now in the suggested reading order. Just got to Magnus 25.

However, all of Giffen's work has been hit or miss with me. I guess some of my favorite of his was the early Legion books from the earlier direct market days.

I agree about Giffen. I liked his issue of Solar. I didn't like his Magnus run. I haven't read his Legion work. I am split on PUNX. I did enjoy his work on Division 13 and Agents of Law, over at Dark Horse. I think he's talented but can get lazy.

[Daniel Jackson]

Okay...

...I have read the final 4 issues of Magnus, Robot Fighter (61-64). I have not yet purchased copies of the beginning of Giffen's run, but I just couldn't contain myself, and read these last four books.

And while I think it was "o-kay" at first, it was heartbreaking how the characters ended up...and the end of issue 64...wow...

I have to agree with most of y'all that the end of this series was not a good send-off of 1-A Jr. It totally felt like Giffen gave everyone the middle finger with this. And, in retrospect, I found his Punx series to be his general opinion of the comic "economy" during the time of their publication. Clearly he wasn't happy, I mean, who was? BUT...the reader had to suffer enough that their favorite books were slowly on their way out. Why make the last few issues suffer too?

Again, I think the premise of issues 61-64 was promising, but it made me feel as though nothing that came before mattered in the end.

Am I totally off base here?

That's exactly the way I felt when reading it. I can understand a person wanting to inject new life into a book and give it their own spin, but what he did was a total slap in the face to a lot of Magnus fans. Instead of showing respect and paying tribute to what Manning and Shooter worked so hard to build, he chose to totally destroy everything decent and magical about the series.

[superman-prime]

ya it was crap and blow the history away not cool

[eternalwarrior]

The Malev war is my favorite Valiant story. Followed closely by the first 12 issues of Harbinger and the BWS A+A. It had such an epic feel to it. I'm also glad i'm not the only one to notice the connection/similarity between this story and the matrix films. (which are also awesome in their own right)
I find it best to read them as they came out as the issues of rai and Magnus link together nicely with little connections between the 2.

[superman-prime]

matris x is like malv war lite

[Jersen]

This is copied from my post on the "What Comics are You Reading" thread, just because I thought this would be a more appropriate place to get some more discussion going about this storyline.

Finished the Malev War today, read through Rai #23 and Magnus #38, which are the epilogue issues that transition to the 4020 era. I also re-listened to the Malev War OTV episode just to hear the color commentary again in a fresh context. I have to say that I really enjoyed the story and found it overall to be very satisfying, although I do agree with some of the criticism the OTV guys had on some of the story elements and stylistic choices.

This almost never happens for me, but I was in complete agreement with Zeph's opinion of Rai's death. I just found that moment--obviously meant to be pivotal, dramatic, and touching--to be simply vapid. I also agreed with Sean that Takao's death was meant to be reflective of Tohru's death in Unity. There were other bits here and there that gave me a little twinge now and then, but I found it overall to be extremely enjoyable. In fact, I'm completely satisfied to end my readings of both characters right there.

One issue that comes up in Magnus #38 that I felt warrants some real discussion was something that I was very surprised the OTV guys didn't hit on in their discussion. After Magnus becomes TC President, the consortium passes a law calling for the destruction of all robots and artificial life. This seems like a HUGE moment to me when I think back on the personal revelations that Magnus had much earlier in the title. In fact, it seems to me to be a direct renouncement of the belief he came to foster from the conclusion of Steel Nation.

I chose to look at this as a hard choice that a world leader must make to ensure the good of the many. But there's no escaping the fact that Magnus basically endorses the genocide of a race: AI. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth that characters like Doc and Talon, whom he fought beside during the Malev War, are eradicated without mercy. What if Tekla had survived the Malev War? Not only did she fight by his side from the beginning of the Malev War, but she had been in love with him for the past 2 years and had defended him from the other Steel Nation officials who had always been suspicious that he would do exactly what he ended up doing.

Sorry, long post, but I'd love to discuss this some more.

[Jersen]

OK, had a few more thoughts that came to mind while thinking some more about this storyline and some of the commentary from the OTV episode.

Regarding Sean's question about the transition in Magnus and Rai from Ostrander to Bedard as writer on both books, I have to say that I found it to be a very smooth transition. In fact, if I had never seen those books before and the writer credits were blanked out, I would never have guessed that there had ever been a change of writer in the whole thing, and that's also considering the 2-issue story written by DeVries. The tone of the books and of the individual characters was very consistent and Bedard's accurate and casual references to events during Ostrander's run are some key things that I think made this an extremely seamless transition. The only writer-to-writer transition that I can think of off the top of my had that has been as smooth as the Ostrander to Bedard transition during the Malev War would be the transition from Yost to Nicieza on Red Robin.

I agree that the whole South Am situation seems a little ridiculous, particularly the idea of Nazis taking over Argentina. None of the previous issues of Magnus even hint at any type of racial prejudice. The closest thing we see to that would be the cultural or class conflict between the Gophs and Cloud-cloddies, but I wouldn't necessarily equate that type of antagonism with the idea of Aryan superiority (feel free to argue that, though). However, I do like the idea of the conflicting South Am territories employing gigantic robots to do their fighting for them and that they also use it as a tourist attraction. Not only that, but North Am also profits from supplying the war robots to all territories! I think that is a pretty interesting commentary about some of the potentials of capitalism.

The two-issue story that takes place in Australia during Christmas 4002 is almost completely useless. It does a good job of showing how the Malevs are working to break down and conquer even the most independent of territories, but the portion of the story dealing with the Future Force establishing a connection with the Sundowners was entirely pointless. No progress to the overall storyline was made and nothing was accomplished.

My last thought is an addendum to my previous post regarding the TC's decision to destroy all robots and artificial life. While it does leave a bad taste in my mouth that Magnus endorses this decision, don't take that to mean that I feel it is completely out of tune with the overall story or progression of the book. There are several times throughout the Malev War story where both Magnus and Rai are prompted to make tough, definite decisions. I think one of the underlying motifs of this storyarc is that both men are being groomed for the roles they will end up having to play. Rai learns both the pleasures and costs of giving in to personal desires when you are engaged in a higher cause and learns that an individual working for a higher cause must sacrifice the self and selfish desires for the greater good of accomplishing much larger goal. This is what prepares him to take on the Malev Emperor and to be unafraid of doing what he must to ensure that it is defeated.

Magnus learns to be decisive in the face of choices that will cost the lives of others. The one that immediately comes to mind is when he decides that he cannot save Dr. Noel from the Malevs that are taking him captive because he needs to go to the aid of Gilad and the team fighting at the work camp in order to save many more humans. Situations like this teach Magnus that decisions always have consequences and that he must make decisions that will benefit humanity the most and that he must also live with the consequences of those decisions. Magnus #38 is very clearly about Magnus transitioning from a man-of-action war hero to a government official. In that transition, he must learn to not only handle things in a much more graceful, diplomatic manner, but that he must hone that decision-making skill even further. He manages to unite the different regional and cultural governments of the world into a global consortium and must facilitate and maintain that global unity. Magnus feels that a decisive way to do that is to unite the world in ridding themselves completely of machine or AI dependence. The Magnus of 4001, and even Magnus throughout the Malev War, would view this as a type of genocide, as I stated earlier; but this decision clearly is of massive benefit to humanity and works to unite not only the various cultures of the world, but we even see the beginnings of a reconciliation in the class distinction between Gophs and Cloud-cloddies in the scene where Elzy and Slagger are teaching the people how to raise crops.

[Dr. Solar]

My response to Magnus 38 was pretty much "WTF?!?"

It seemed to be a complete 180-degree switch, without any explanation.