Valiant in Wizard #151

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:27 am

For anyone interested in a response to the Wizard information, visit:
http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/Wi ... sponse.asp

(I also edited the first post in this topic to include the link...)

Master Dorque · Post by **Master Dorque** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:30 am

I've got mixed feelings on seeing Valiant back in the limelight again. It's a double edged sword. It's nice that the value of our Valiant collections is on the rise. And it is comforting to have our passion somewhat validated by the mainstream. Nothing worse than going to a dealer and asking for Valiants and having him give you that look, like "...VALIANTS....hah! Check the quarter bins fanboy!" But all the attention and the price increases are certainly going to make it harder to fill the holes in our collections. Oh well....damned if you do - damned if you don't!

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:48 pm

Master Dorque wrote:I've got mixed feelings on seeing Valiant back in the limelight again. It's a double edged sword. It's nice that the value of our Valiant collections is on the rise. And it is comforting to have our passion somewhat validated by the mainstream. Nothing worse than going to a dealer and asking for Valiants and having him give you that look, like "...VALIANTS....hah! Check the quarter bins fanboy!" But all the attention and the price increases are certainly going to make it harder to fill the holes in our collections. Oh well....damned if you do - damned if you don't!

That pretty much sums up my feelings too.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:57 pm

I guess that means that will not be anymore .25-.50 sales on here either...oh well...fun while it lasted....maybe everyone will think that it is an april fool's joke and we will all be safe for a few more weeks...

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:27 pm

Oh there are quite a few that are hidden away, but I agree in the hundreds MAYBE breaking a thousand... maybe.

Well, just a quick defense of my earlier post, I meant not only back rooms but also from private collectors who just don't care. Check the Valiant pre-Unity rescue project.

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/rescue.asp

Check something like Magnus #5. 70,000 print run, 194 "saved" by us. There are 65,000+ copies out there waiting for us, still with coupon. Of course, condition will also play a factor.

I guess what I'm saying is that 500 more people looking for Magnus #5 will be able to find them as back rooms and collections open up. However, 500 more people looking for Harbinger #0 pink could cause a substantial rise in price.

Shakes

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:12 pm

Shakespeare wrote:Don't worry, Ryan, even if Wizard brings 500 people back to Valiant, it will bring 20,000 pre-Unities out of comic shop back rooms. I'm guessing prices will actually go down. Not on the super-rare books (because, as Greg has said before, there's a point at which one of us won't let it go for cheap and we'll just pick up another copy.)

You know...I've often wondered about that philosophy. Does it only apply to one or small lots? For example....I will buy any gold book for $5. If someone came up to me and offered a storage facility of, say, 20,000 gold books (not so hard to imagine, there are, after all, 15 or so gold books with print runs of 5,000)...there's no way I could come up with $100,000 on the spot. Figure the price is NOT negotiable below $5/book....and you HAD to buy ALL of them or NONE of them....

Would you do whatever you could to get them? If, you know, it's the price threshold that you'd not let the books go under?

Imagine it's 2,000 Unity Reds for $20 each. Got $40,000 lying around? How about 500 CEARS at $50 each.

At what point do you say 'man, I'd LOVE to, but it's just not gonna happen'....?

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:26 pm

Knightt_333 wrote:
whetteon wrote:
Master Dorque wrote:I've got mixed feelings on seeing Valiant back in the limelight again. It's a double edged sword. It's nice that the value of our Valiant collections is on the rise. And it is comforting to have our passion somewhat validated by the mainstream. Nothing worse than going to a dealer and asking for Valiants and having him give you that look, like "...VALIANTS....hah! Check the quarter bins fanboy!" But all the attention and the price increases are certainly going to make it harder to fill the holes in our collections. Oh well....damned if you do - damned if you don't!
That pretty much sums up my feelings too.
My feelings as well. It was/is kind of neat being the 'Valiant guy' at my LCS and for the majority of the comic book collecting world. Now to have this 'interest' in my closely guarded secret line of books leaves me with mixed feelings as well.

While I agree with most of the above, in that it's VERY cool to have people talking about Valiant again, I gotta say this....don't think I'm being too cheeky....

...but I have no sympathy for those of you who had the CHANCE to complete a pre-unity or other Valiant collections for almost 10 years, and didn't. None.

Hey...I never GOT the chance to buy Spiderman #1 for $500...or X-Men #94 for 25 cents...or Action #1 for $1000....or Showcase #4 for $10. And, until about 2000, I had NO opportunity (as did most of the rest of us) to buy super high grade ANYTHING past the 1970's, because they were all sucked up in the late 80's. It's the nature of the beast, but if you WAITED and didn't think that Valiant would EVER be 'popular' again...well, too bad. Ya snooze, ya lose.

I completed my collection the old fashioned way....I waited until they were all printed, then bought them all at once on eBay.

Well, yes, I DID do that, but I did have almost a complete collection already....I've been touting Valiants since day 1, and never wavered...and just smirked when anyone laughed about me wanting Valiants. HEY...they laughed at people buying IBM in '45, Intel in '74, and Microsoft in '85. Just goes to show what 'they' know, eh?

For those of you who just discovered comics....my condolences, and get them NOW. Don't wait until summer. If it's a decent price according to eBay or the guide, BUY IT NOW. There's nothing (outside of maybe CEAR and X-O 1/2 Gold) that is valued FAR more than it's really 'worth', relatively. So if you want them....DON'T WAIT ANY LONGER.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:00 pm

My response

Uh Oh

Sir B

skiw · Post by **skiw** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:21 am

I would not worry too much about not being able to finish a pre-unity set now. If you take a look at the current prices on Harbinger #0 Pink, Unity #0 Red, CEAR, etc. they are lower than what they were going for last summer. I was able to get $50 - 60 for my Harbinger #0 Pinks and Chaos Effect Gold back then, as well as $75+ for Unity Reds and $130 or so for a copy of CEAR. Granted, Wizard might cause a bit of a bump in prices in the short term, but once they get high enough a lot of the speculators that paid top dollar for the books in the early 90s will start to unload them (to hopefully break even) and flood the market. The telltale sign that the prices are starting to peak will be when aug002 starts to sell his multiples. When this happens it is time to dump yours as well.

Happy hunting.

Skiw

COMICKINGS · Post by **COMICKINGS** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:04 am

aug002 is not the only guy out there buying this stuff.If it's ungraded I'm always a buyer for pre-unity stuff.When I sell graded stuff,there's a couple guys that outbid aug002.People from this website are not the only people buying and selling these books.With all the exposure these books are starting to get,there will be alot of people trying to cash out again,but there will be more people getting into the books also.I'm hoping somebody with cases of these pre-unity books pops up.But don't bet on it happening.There's probably not more than 5 people that have quantity on any pre-unity stuff that they've had since '91/'92.The Golds & premium books probably have alot more guys sitting on quantity,but I realy don't think there were too many guys putting back 100's of copies of Harbinger #1 or Solar #10 back when the gettin was good!

As for high grade CGC stuff...The first few 9.8's of a book that hit Ebay always do good,then as 10-20 more hit it does go down.But still,20-30 or 9.8 copies is not that much.And it's not as easy as some might think to get a 9.8.I never stopped buying Valiants during the dumping years and I have maybe 1000 pre-unity books.I've gotten maybe 25 that came back graded 9.8's out of maybe 100 submitted.And no grades higher.These books are 12+ years old.You just don't walk into any store or show and find gem mint stuff sitting in the bins or back rooms.

Thank you Wizard for getting these books back in the spotlight!Hopefully there are some guys in the comic companies offices seeing whats going on also,and are contemplating bringing some of the characters back to the mainstream.I saw the post about ibooks & Magnus and thats great!He's the character that started the whole Valiant superhero universe back then,hopefully he's gonna do it again!

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:02 am

comicnut_1 wrote:I would not worry too much about not being able to finish a pre-unity set now. If you take a look at the current prices on Harbinger #0 Pink, Unity #0 Red, CEAR, etc. they are lower than what they were going for last summer. I was able to get $50 - 60 for my Harbinger #0 Pinks and Chaos Effect Gold back then, as well as $75+ for Unity Reds and $130 or so for a copy of CEAR. Granted, Wizard might cause a bit of a bump in prices in the short term, but once they get high enough a lot of the speculators that paid top dollar for the books in the early 90s will start to unload them (to hopefully break even) and flood the market. The telltale sign that the prices are starting to peak will be when aug002 starts to sell his multiples. When this happens it is time to dump yours as well.

Happy hunting.

Skiw

It's save to say Aug002 and COMICKINGS are good market value markers. I'll have to watch both of them closely the next couple of years. (I have my eyes on you

) Does Aug002 even visit these boards?

Rai-fan · Post by **Rai-fan** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:25 am

I guess this is directed at ComicKings, but open to others as well:

What's your price point for non-rare pre-unitys? For instance, I recently passed on mint copies of Solar 1-4 at $10 per, as well as a VF/NM 10 at $10. Granted, I have 2-3 copies of each, but I just can't see Solar 1 as a $10 book.

Ditto Magnus 2--I've passed on it repeatedly at $4 because I already have 6 of them & I'm not really a Magnus fan. That said, I would easily pay $5 each for Solar 1-4 or X-O 1-4. Couldn't see ever paying more than $5 for Shadowman 2 or 3, though.

Each of these books is in the 50,000-print run range, which is equivalent (or more) than what mainstream Marvels or DC do _now_ and because they got so hot so quickly, I'm convinced that most of them are still stockpiled in high grade in private collections. I remember 1993 conventions where _every_ dealer had 10-15 copies of Rai 1, etc.

Thoughts?

myron · Post by **myron** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:27 am

whetteon wrote:
<snip>

It's save to say Aug002 and COMICKINGS are good market value markers. I'll have to watch both of them closely the next couple of years. (I have my eyes on you ) Does Aug002 even visit these boards?

It has been said by some others that Aug002 does visit the boards...I would guess that anyone that into the valiant game would...since it is the first thing that comes up on a google search...

COMICKINGS · Post by **COMICKINGS** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:31 am

whetteon wrote:
comicnut_1 wrote:I would not worry too much about not being able to finish a pre-unity set now. If you take a look at the current prices on Harbinger #0 Pink, Unity #0 Red, CEAR, etc. they are lower than what they were going for last summer. I was able to get $50 - 60 for my Harbinger #0 Pinks and Chaos Effect Gold back then, as well as $75+ for Unity Reds and $130 or so for a copy of CEAR. Granted, Wizard might cause a bit of a bump in prices in the short term, but once they get high enough a lot of the speculators that paid top dollar for the books in the early 90s will start to unload them (to hopefully break even) and flood the market. The telltale sign that the prices are starting to peak will be when aug002 starts to sell his multiples. When this happens it is time to dump yours as well.

Happy hunting.

Skiw
It's save to say Aug002 and COMICKINGS are good market value markers. I'll have to watch both of them closely the next couple of years. (I have my eyes on you ) Does Aug002 even visit these boards?

There "has" to be somebody out there selling and somebody buying to make a market.It's getting peoples attention and creating some excitement again in these books.It might be the right time to sell again but if these characters all come back to the mainstream,right now is still a buyers market.Nobody knows for sure so I don't want to take a chance and get caught holding the bag again.I'm not selling everything I have.Believe I am still buying these books myself to put away for long term.I'm moving some high grade stuff because I personally don't collect CGC stuff.I am a dealer and I can't see not selling some of these books that are high grade CGC right now.I have been posting up some ungraded lower grade vf/nm runs of Valiant lately,but I'm just trying to move some lower grade stuff.The ungraded nm/mint stuff just gets put away for a while longer!

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:35 am

IMHO wizard and overstreet are going to start pumpng up valiants, which they have really already started. The prices on the key issues will go up. Then all the people that still have a ton of copies of whatever will try and dump them to makes some moeny off of them. Then the price will start going down as more and more issues come out...people will start trying to get rid of them and the bottom will fall out...a year from now everyone will still hate valiants, save a the hardcores that we already have and a few new converts...still we are really looking at a very small number of people that collect these books...I would say less than 1000 people actively searching for certain books and trying to complete or have compoleted sets...if that number increases to 1500 or 2000 that still is not a lot of people....plenty of books to go around....those of us with imcomplete sets might have to pony up some more cash or wait a efw more months to finish them up for cheap....

COMICKINGS · Post by **COMICKINGS** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:41 am

Rai-fan wrote:I guess this is directed at ComicKings, but open to others as well:

What's your price point for non-rare pre-unitys? For instance, I recently passed on mint copies of Solar 1-4 at $10 per, as well as a VF/NM 10 at $10. Granted, I have 2-3 copies of each, but I just can't see Solar 1 as a $10 book.

Ditto Magnus 2--I've passed on it repeatedly at $4 because I already have 6 of them & I'm not really a Magnus fan. That said, I would easily pay $5 each for Solar 1-4 or X-O 1-4. Couldn't see ever paying more than $5 for Shadowman 2 or 3, though.

Each of these books is in the 50,000-print run range, which is equivalent (or more) than what mainstream Marvels or DC do _now_ and because they got so hot so quickly, I'm convinced that most of them are still stockpiled in high grade in private collections. I remember 1993 conventions where _every_ dealer had 10-15 copies of Rai 1, etc.

Thoughts?

...One thing to think about...90% of the people buying these books for high dollars back then were speculators.After the fallout I'd say 90% of them dumped their books back into the matrketplace.Most of those people could care less about a comic book,they just thought it was a "good investment".Some probably took their losses early and sold off what they had just to get something back,some others kept the books for a few years hoping that it'll come back one day.When it didn't they got rid of 'em.I wouldn't think too many people that were speculating back then still have these books.I have collections coming in all the time.I haven't had 1 person bring in any pre-unity stuff in years.I still get Spawns,Youngblood,Spiderman #1,X-factors,post unity Valiants,etc...This is just what I am seeing from here in my store,from buying from the other local stores and from shows close to here.It may be different in other places out there though.

myron · Post by **myron** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:45 am

kenshikenji wrote: <snip>
It's save to say Aug002 and COMICKINGS are good market value markers. I'll have to watch both of them closely the next couple of years. (I have my eyes on you ) Does Aug002 even visit these boards?
Aug002 could be at the extreme end of the mean for market makers. if you use him as a barometer for the prices on valiant comics, youd be committing a grave mistake.

mostlikely very true when you observe buying patterns...Aug002 is definitely a statistical outlier when compared with the norm. Just look at some of the prices paid and items selected over the past couple of months...

COMICKINGS · Post by **COMICKINGS** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:55 am

...I don't mean to ramble on...I was doing shows along the east coast back in the hey day,Yeah you would see guys with Rai #1's,X-O #1's,Solar #1's,Magnus #1's....but nobody had quantity on pre-Unity Harbingers 1-4,Solar 10's,Magnus 12's,X-O 4's & 5's...there are some hard to find books.I was buying & selling all I could get.Some books were just tought o find then and still now...X-O #4,Harbinger #1,#4,Magnus #12,and there's a few more.These are going to always be good books to have.

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:05 am

Wizard's website article on Valiant become mainstream again also mentions sonic dan's website. Greg and Sonic Dan, have either of you two noticed a jump in website traffic in the last... say two months?

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazines ... 6-wzpg.cfm

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:29 am

Well, I had quantity. But I was the only one. It was pretty much exclusively all I bought/sold. I went to every show with more than one (usually more than 10) of each pre-unity, and usually left with at least one. The two books I had trouble keeping around all the time were Magnus 12 and Solar 10.

I was buying like mad all the time. I was using the internet, pre-ebay, to buy Valiant collections. I would scare up 3-4 good ones a month with the prices I was paying. And since I was selling them almost exclusively, people would hand me their short boxes of Valiant all the time at shows.

This was 1993-94 ish. CK is right, though. All the other dealers were buying from me, and I was only selling to dealers after the show was over - unless they were paying top dollar. This is why I would lose my Magnus 12s and Solar 10s.

COMICKINGS wrote:...I don't mean to ramble on...I was doing shows along the east coast back in the hey day,Yeah you would see guys with Rai #1's,X-O #1's,Solar #1's,Magnus #1's....but nobody had quantity on pre-Unity Harbingers 1-4,Solar 10's,Magnus 12's,X-O 4's & 5's...there are some hard to find books.I was buying & selling all I could get.Some books were just tought o find then and still now...X-O #4,Harbinger #1,#4,Magnus #12,and there's a few more.These are going to always be good books to have.

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:46 am

whetteon wrote:Wizard's website article on Valiant become mainstream again also mentions sonic dan's website. Greg and Sonic Dan, have either of you two noticed a jump in website traffic in the last... say two months?

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazines ... 6-wzpg.cfm

Since they misspelled valiantcomics.com, you mean?

They put vialiantcomics.com in URL in the article.

myron · Post by **myron** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:47 pm

Knightt_333 wrote:
I would pass on those prices as well considering I got Solar #1-9 for $27 shipped off Ebay (yep $3.00 a book). I think Valiant will go up in price because there are 'some' rumbling and WE are hyping it as well. But in the long run, it will not last. At least I hope our fan base will broaden as these are great books. I hope people buy them not to make money... but to READ them.

seems there have been alot of early solars available of late...at VERY reasonable prices...(picked up #3 for 1.67)...and I've seen many other auctions for not much more...probably has something to do with Solar being mentioned in overstreet two months ago...

skiw · Post by **skiw** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:28 pm

myron wrote:
kenshikenji wrote: <snip>
It's save to say Aug002 and COMICKINGS are good market value markers. I'll have to watch both of them closely the next couple of years. (I have my eyes on you ) Does Aug002 even visit these boards?
Aug002 could be at the extreme end of the mean for market makers. if you use him as a barometer for the prices on valiant comics, youd be committing a grave mistake.
mostlikely very true when you observe buying patterns...Aug002 is definitely a statistical outlier when compared with the norm. Just look at some of the prices paid and items selected over the past couple of months...

aug002 being an outlier is exactly why you should keep an eye out to see if he is selling. Judging by the number of keys he has picked up over the past year and a half (I know I sold him at least 2 - 3 copies of most of them) and the $$$ paid, when he starts selling the prices are likely getting close to peaking.

Cheers,
Skiw

skiw · Post by **skiw** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:40 pm

Knightt_333 wrote:I hope people buy them not to make money... but to READ them.

BLASPHEMY! Don't you know that TPBs are for reading and comics are to be kept unread for making money?

Skiw

skiw · Post by **skiw** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:24 pm

kenshikenji wrote:
comicnut_1 wrote:
Knightt_333 wrote:I hope people buy them not to make money... but to READ them.

BLASPHEMY! Don't you know that TPBs are for reading and comics are to be kept unread for making money?

Skiw
i know that was sarcastic, but they dont usually make a tpb unless the comic book had some success. how do you get successful without reading it? now...which came first? the chicken or the egg?

Unfortunately, a comic does not have to be successful any longer in order to get a TPB made. Check out what Crossgen is doing and Marvel is starting to do with some of their titles. There was a big discussion about this on the CGC boards, and a lot of the posters seemed to think that this is how comics will be printed in the future - a compilation of 3 or 4 new issues every 3 or so months instead of the "skinny" monthly.

Skiw