Question....

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:45 pm

Ok, so I bought a Rai #1-33 recently....all 'NM'...and all WERE, with the exception of #4, which had lots of ink loss on the spine from rubbing against other copies...looks really crappy.

So...the seller offers me a $10 refund, since he doesn't want me to 'wait' for an actual NM copy.

I paid $38 total for the lot...fair market value, by far, in my opinion. The anti-value of #'s 6-#25 almost cancelling some of the positive value of the remaining books.

I explained that #3 and #4 are 80% of the value of the entire run, with #1 and #2 being 15%, and the rest covers the other 5%.

$10 is roughly a 25% refund. Rai #4, however, is 40-50%% of the value of the lot, and even more on it's own.

Seems unfair when you crunch the numbers. What do you all think?

As an aside....I HAD to ask the seller why the #4, of all books, had to be the one that was ruined.

Had it been a #13, he'd have his positive, and we'd be on our way.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:48 pm

Oh, and keep in mind that the ability to 'turn lemons into lemonade' by flipping the best books for more than I paid for the lot doesn't apply, because, when it comes down to it, when someone says 'all books NM', all books need to be NM. Bottom line. One shouldn't have to settle just because they 'may be able to make some money anyways'. Not the point.

dellamorte · Post by **dellamorte** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:50 pm

I think he's being fair. Most sellers would probably divide the price paid by the books in the lot and offer you the $1.15 you paid per book. But I guess the real question is would you have paid $28 for Rai 1-3, 5-33?

Mr.V · Post by **Mr.V** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:59 pm

$10 seems about right. Unless it's slabbed or NM/MT, a raw NM copy of Rai #4 goes for about $10-$15 on the right day. If the rest of the books ARE NM, and you got the $10 back from the #4, you basically "got what you paid for". No more, no less.

I still think that #3 is the one to watch though; especially high grade with nice centering....

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:15 pm

dellamorte wrote:I think he's being fair. Most sellers would probably divide the price paid by the books in the lot and offer you the $1.15 you paid per book. But I guess the real question is would you have paid $28 for Rai 1-3, 5-33?

Nope. Not at this time. And if any seller tryies that 'divide by the number of books in a lot' line, I quickly inform them that not all back issues are created equally, and the price they GOT was, is, and always WILL be because of the KEY issues...anyone being honest doesn't play this game.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:55 pm

Zeph...

No offense, but honestly, I think overall it's a fair deal. Personally, if I were the seller i'd simply tell you to RETURN the books all together for a full refund. Otherwise, i'd tell you that since 99% of books ARE in NM grade, that's close enough to 100% in almost most peoples logical opinions. (NOTHING is 100%)

I mean, sure Rai#4 is one of the top 3 of the 33 books, but geeze, the rest WERE NM grade, i'd bust balls over such a complaint to be truthful...just my two cents of course

Sir B

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:28 am

By my calculations... a realistic value for Rai #1 - #33 is about $72 before shipping.
(That is, $72 could be made by selling the individual issues, before shipping.)

Rai #4 is about $18 of that $72, which would be 25%.
You would realistically be entitled to
about half of 25% of your "investment"...
which would be 12.5% of $38... or, $4.75.
If you would want a full refund on Rai #4, then it's $9.50.

You got $10 back? Awesome.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:12 am

greg wrote:By my calculations... a realistic value for Rai #1 - #33 is about $72 before shipping.
(That is, $72 could be made by selling the individual issues, before shipping.)

Rai #4 is about $18 of that $72, which would be 25%.
You would realistically be entitled to
about half of 25% of your "investment"...
which would be 12.5% of $38... or, $4.75.
If you would want a full refund on Rai #4, then it's $9.50.

You got $10 back? Awesome.

Like I said...it's not about what I could SELL them for. It's not about what I COULD make back on the set. It's about what's being advertised. And Peter, as I'm sure you know, 99% isn't an accurate figure. If I were to sell you, say, a run of Hulk #170-200, complete, and described the lot as 'all books (say) F/VF'...without mentioning the key books...and all the books EXCEPT #181 WERE F/VF, but the #181 was a Fair?

Would the BIDDING reflect that knowledge? Of course not. The bidding would be made based on the CORRECT assumption that ALL the books were, in fact, AS ADVERTISED BY THE SELLER. Would the buyer who'd just paid....mmmm.....$400-$500 for the lot be happy? Of course not. He/she would have gotten about $75-$100 worth of books for that $400-$500.

But come on, now, 99% of the books WERE described accurately. See my point here?

See, no one complains about my books precisely because I am this picky and anal about it. I'm not going to send out a lot I describe as NM, and have the KEY of the entire set be trashed (and is anyone here going to argue that #4 isn't the key of the set, followed closely by #3...with the rest light years behind?) Not ever going to happen. It's rude, it's unfair to my customer, and I'd never in a million years treat a paying customer like that. Ever. I will make DAMN sure that the KEY book is the 'nice one' and not worry too much about the 10 cent books like #9-#13.

And I haven't gotten the $10 back yet...I'm mulling it over. I think I'd just rather have the replacement copy of #4. I sure as hell am not going to find a NM #4 for $10 to replace the one I was ENTITLED to by winning and paying for the auction.

Sigh.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:15 am

blah blah blah, ZPH's just tired and cranky....and weary of the overgrading. Ignore him.

dellamorte · Post by **dellamorte** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:11 am

A little off topic but I think #3 is slightly more key than #4. As I said before it all depends on what you feel is fair. If your not happy ask for a full refund. Waiting for the seller to find a NM copy might not be the best Idea. If it takes him to long you might lose your ability to leave him proper feedback and also you might never get the book. So I'd say either take the $10 or ask for a full refund.

oxygen · Post by **oxygen** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:02 am

I'd say you got a good deal out of it; it's just the spine.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:06 am

Zeph,

I do understand your angst here, but to be fair, comparing a Rai#4 to the analogy you used (Hulk#181) is a STRETCH of the highest regard.

Look, THAT book (#181) IS the whole collection of the run that you gave as example. Rai# 4 isn't even the TOP book in the Rai run, so it wasn't a real good comparision for me, but I understand essentially.

The only thing I can suggest to you is...only buy CGC graded books! I collect High grade Silver and Bronze books, and NEVER buy a single one that not slabbed. Expensive? you bet your *SQUEE*

but at least i'm always happy and never surprised.

Finally, to be honest again, no, I do NOT assume an auction to be what the seller claims it to be...what am I an *SQUEE*

YOU should know better than that Zeph. Personally, when I bid on "raw" books on Ebay I ALWAYS assume the books to be at LEAST a 1/2 grade lower than advertised...and with perpetuity I do so. Hey, its not really a big deal, but I do understand your position, I just think it could be avoided with perhaps a new creed

Sir B

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:12 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Zeph,

I do understand your angst here, but to be fair, comparing a Rai#4 to the analogy you used (Hulk#181) is a STRETCH of the highest regard.

Not in the slightest. Both are examples of runs that are virtually worthless, outside of some extraordinarily stellar keys. That was my point.

Look, THAT book (#181) IS the whole collection of the run that you gave as example. Rai# 4 isn't even the TOP book in the Rai run, so it wasn't a real good comparision for me, but I understand essentially.

It's not? It's the lowest printed of all regular pre-unity books, it's the one that always commands the highest price. Which book IS the key to the set if not #4? Like I said, #3 is a very close second, but it could be argued for Hulk #180 and #182 as well.

The only thing I can suggest to you is...only buy CGC graded books! I collect High grade Silver and Bronze books, and NEVER buy a single one that not slabbed. Expensive? you bet your *SQUEE* but at least i'm always happy and never surprised.

There are too many people with stars in their eyes, and no restraints on their bidding fingers, when it comes to CGC. If I can get CGC books for half guide, I'll try, but I'm not willing to pay more than half guide for them. Could I spend 3, 4, 10 times Guide and get any CGC book I wanted? Well, of course, within reason...but yes, I could. Would I feel GOOD about it?

Heck no.

Finally, to be honest again, no, I do NOT assume an auction to be what the seller claims it to be...what am I an *SQUEE* YOU should know better than that Zeph.

It's holding people to their word. If their word means nothing, they should be aware of that, and so should everyone else. It's not about what is, in this case, but what should be. And...it leads me back to my age old question...why do I have to 'play fair' when no one else is? MY books are always what I claim them to be. But...my conscience doesn't put food on the table. So, can I just start overgrading books to get higher final bids too? I mean this, since it's Rome and all....

Personally, when I bid on "raw" books on Ebay I ALWAYS assume the books to be at LEAST a 1/2 grade lower than advertised...and with perpetuity I do so.

I understand, and grudgingly accept and apply this philosophy. However....another one of those 'should be', not 'is' sorta deals.

Oh, and oxygen...it's not just the spine. The entire spine has had the ink rubbed off, back and front, from rubbing against other books in I assume a quarter bin of some sort. You know the damage I'm talking about...

But seriously, thank you all for the input. It's very much appreciated.

dave · Post by **dave** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:19 pm

zeph is thinking-oh great now dave is gonna call me cranky again-but wait! i'm full of surprises! (or at least full of something

)

i totally agree! you CAN"T call all the books NM and have the KEY be the dog! this is what has kept me from selling a solar run...i'm missing 7 and 8. i could sell you a nice run of 1-10 (1-20 actually) but i'm missing 7 and 8.
most people would say that #10 is the key of that run-and at times i would agree, but it seems 7 and 8 are much harder to find. anyway- i know that i would not get what i want to get out of the books for the lack of the 2 issues. so i wait. just like this guy should have.
i could sell my solars by listing it as solar 1-10 to maximize hits, then call it a ten issue lot...then way down elsewhere admit that i'm missing 7 and 8 (btw i'm not missing 7 and 8 in my personal collection anymore!)

anyway we can debate whether 3 is the key or 4 is, but if either of those two is missing or in less than NM. you can't sell the lot as NM.

i know that those of us who check on "full runs" listed on e-bay always check to see if the seller is really selling what he says he is-by description, by the photo and by even e-mailing in order to clarify.

i think it stinks-what is his offer regarding finding a NM #4?

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:45 pm

In the direct opposite of this....I just bought a set of secret wars 1-8 ,11 off of ebay for like 10 bucks..no mention of condition and just a little web cam picture of the books...I have always wanted a set of these books to read and I would like a nice copy of number 8. well I got the books today and most of them are readers...but the number 8 is by far the best book in the set...the key really was better than the rest of them...the #8 has a few QP problems like over wrap and an overhang at the top, but other than that it looks fairly good..I would say probably a vf....not a VF/NM just a VF but not bad for 10 bucks....at least I am happy..I knew that I was taking a chance but it turned out alright this time...

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:58 pm

no no no dawg-lissen-on zephyr's posts, we never talk positive, only negative. you'll have to start a new thread.
you're throwing off his whole "cranky-zen'motiff"...

btw are you rooting for GT?

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:00 pm

oops, too late georgia tech lost...

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:11 pm

dave wrote:no no no dawg-lissen-on zephyr's posts, we never talk positive, only negative. you'll have to start a new thread.
you're throwing off his whole "cranky-zen'motiff"...

btw are you rooting for GT?

<smirk, soft chuckle>...classic.

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:33 pm

see...i knew you got my humor...how come certain individuals with supreme intellilect can't playfully go back and forth with others??!! moo.

lobo · Post by **lobo** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:54 pm

dave wrote:see...i knew you got my humor...how come certain individuals with supreme intellilect can't playfully go back and forth with others??!! moo.

Ohhhh! BURN!

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:35 am

dave wrote:no no no dawg-lissen-on zephyr's posts, we never talk positive, only negative. you'll have to start a new thread.
you're throwing off his whole "cranky-zen'motiff"...

btw are you rooting for GT?

you are kidding right? I was VERY pleased with the outcome of that game...

Glory, Glory to ole Georgia
Glory, Glory to those Bulldawgs
Glory, Glory to ole Georgia
....and to hell with Georgia Tech

Great quote from the Atlanta paper Joe Blow "leads the Georgia Tech Fight song tonight at Jock's and Jills[local sports bar], reading the words off a sheet he brough with him, since the it was not important enough to learn when he was in school." Nice ....cough.....bandwagon...cough....

myron · Post by **myron** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:40 am

dave wrote:see...i knew you got my humor...how come certain individuals with supreme intellilect can't playfully go back and forth with others??!! moo.

heee---heee.... rofl....

kenshi...kendoll...oh, that's right, you're not reading this...unless of course you are cheating....