What if Valiant had come out at a different time?

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:09 pm

This discussion of what was wrong with comics in the 90's got me thinking, what if Valiant had started at a different time.

It seems to me that the demise of Valiant can be attributed to the direct and indirect effects of the 90's boom.

Without the 90's boom, Acclaim probably would not have been interested in Valiant.

Without the 90's boom, Valiant probably would not have mass produced so many titles. Thus, they might have expanded more slowly, allowing time for more growth and development of titles.

Without the 90's boom, so many speculators would not have purchased, then dumped Valiant comics.

So my question is, if Valiant had come out at a different time (well before 90's boom, or started now), with the SAME stories (let's say 6 months past Unity), would they have
a) been able to survive
b) been as big a hit as they were

Before we blame everything on the boom, let's also recognized the fact that Valiant would probably not have risen as quickly as they did without people like Wizard, and comic collectors who were willing to try new things because of an expanding market.

So it is possible, that without the boom, they would have never even gotten that far - they would have published a few issues, and found the market very resistant. OR, they might have been able to barely stay in the black, and become an "alternative" type comic, with a few titles being published, but not being able to expand into the universe that they wanted to become.

Just some thoughts for speculation.

Chris

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:16 pm

I would like to believe that if they had come out now, I would have gotten into them. But Valiant made me discover Gold Key. W/o Valiant, I wouldn't know what I know now.

So, I would love to believe the dream, too. but in reality, the boom was what got me into them. W/o it, I don't think I would have been into them

BTW, Wizard still has not sent me the X-O #1 I won. tards...

~The Unblessed Soul

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:06 pm

I doubt they would last long in the current market and not just because of the lower fan base.

Most of the big name creators are back at the Big Two companies. The thing that made the rise of other companies like Valiant possible was that ALL the big, decent talent in the industry was going to "independent" companies or self publishing. This made people sit up and take notice at comics not put out by DC and Marvel. It made it seem like comics from the "indi" press and new companies actually stood a chance. You don't have that now.

Of course if Valiant went into THIS exact market their once "radical" story telling wouldn't be all that different from their competitors. Realistic art, "real world" scenarios, and more depth and humanity in comics is the current trend now.

But you never know. People are still waiting for the next big thing in super hero comics. Something that will finally give them a real, lasting alternative to DC and Marvel. Maybe Valiant could've been that company.

riff13 · Post by **riff13** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:12 pm

Todd Luck wrote:Of course if Valiant went into THIS exact market their once "radical" story telling wouldn't be all that different from their competitors. Realistic art, "real world" scenarios, and more depth and humanity in comics is the current trend now.

I think these things run in cycles. back in the 60's Spider-Man was a prime example of a hero with depth, humanity, and "real world" scenerios. How many other hero's at the time had to worry about having enough money for rent? Then gradually things got more fantastic from there.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:20 pm

So, Valiant came out about 2 or 3 years to late. If they started ther superhero line say 1987-88 the titles AND the company would have had a chance to grow and be more stable.
If you think about it , this is what helped Dark Horse.

riff13 · Post by **riff13** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:39 pm

Actually I think what helped Dark Horse was the strengh of their licenced material. Which is still what they're known for.

When Dark Horse tried to launch their superhero line it was practically D.O.A.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:39 pm

riff13 wrote:I think these things run in cycles. back in the 60's Spider-Man was a prime example of a hero with depth, humanity, and "real world" scenerios. How many other hero's at the time had to worry about having enough money for rent? Then gradually things got more fantastic from there.

I think this exemplifies the two different type of "real world" stories.

Spiderman trying to get rent is a real world story - he is dealing with real problems that other people (presumably many readers) faced as well.

However, Valiant did "real world' in a different way. Their real world was in terms of the universe, not so much as the stories. That is, the world in which the character lived was "our" world, but the issues and stories that the characters dealt with were not really things that we would have to deal with. I mean, how many of us were abducted by spider aliens?

Chris

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:45 pm

riff13 wrote:Actually I think what helped Dark Horse was the strengh of their licenced material. Which is still what they're known for.

When Dark Horse tried to launch their superhero line it was practically D.O.A.

You don't consider Nintendo and WWF strong licenced material

riff13 · Post by **riff13** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:45 pm

cjv wrote:I mean, how many of us were abducted by spider aliens?

Chris

Well I didn't want to admit this, but there was this one time I woke up in a web on a space ship and...

I dunno. Spidey was also put in "our" world. Or at least as much as New York City could be considered "our" world. He wasn't in metropolis or Gotham, or wherever. He grew up in Queens.

What seprated Valiant was the fact that all of their characters lived in the same world, all the time, not just for cross-overs.

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:02 pm

i think valiant was responsible for the boom, personally. i think that the death of superman, was dc's response to valiant, and that later knightfall was another attempt along with the green lantern revamp and other stuff-marvel was planning on "offing" all the x-men, wolverine lost his adamantium, daredevil got a new costume...i think most of this was brought on by the threat of image and valiant...and the other little guys that were at least starting to make some noise...

gowaltrip · Post by **gowaltrip** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:56 pm

It seemed to me that the boom had already began when Valiant came along. It just wasnt as big yet. I seem to remember Spiderman #1 being pretty huge, and things were starting to snowball, If Im not mistaking (and I could be) I think this was 1990. I believe Jim Lee's XMen #1 came out not long after that. Late 91 Early 92???? The ball seemed to already be rolling when Valiant started catching fire. It just seemed to start with a little roll and it just exploded. Valiant just seemed to come at the right time to catch that wave. And BOOOOOOMMM! It was on!!!! Everything just turned to GOLD overnight! Moneywise that is. Oh and 1 last thing, when did Wizard come out, cause once they had a top 10, if you had them, it was money in the bank for awhile there.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:07 pm

I would like to think that if they started earlier (or later) then they might have survived. I guess that's one question where we will never really know the answer. However, I do know that Valiant definitely had the big boys running scared for awhile. I Remember Marvel & DC with the endless sea of Gimmicky covers, the drastic new directions for some of their heroes and finally even dream-teaming the two different universes together for a Mini event.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:25 pm

It was a wakeup call for the Marvel and DC to give the people a better product .
Did they ever answer that call?

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:59 pm

riff13 wrote:I dunno. Spidey was also put in "our" world. Or at least as much as New York City could be considered "our" world. He wasn't in metropolis or Gotham, or wherever. He grew up in Queens..

It was our world in the same sense any Marvel character was in our world. They all used real locations and stuff. However, the universe isn't "ours". We don't have alternate dimensions that pop up, space aliens that routinely visit earth, supernatural beings that grant powers ,etc.

Chris

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:14 pm

riff13 wrote:Actually I think what helped Dark Horse was the strengh of their licenced material. Which is still what they're known for.

When Dark Horse tried to launch their superhero line it was practically D.O.A.

Actually, I think it might've been both. They did start out with some praised titles like CONCRETE and BORIS THE BEAR. They were one of the companies that managed to survive the black-and-white bust. Then they did the licensed titles like ALIENS, PREDATOR, ROBOCOP, STAR WARS, etc. which then helped.

And maybe getting top creators like Frank Miller, John Byrne, etc at the time helped some, too.

Lately, though, most of the emphasis seems to be on the licensed properties.

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:19 pm

dave wrote:i think valiant was responsible for the boom, personally. i think that the death of superman, was dc's response to valiant, and that later knightfall was another attempt along with the green lantern revamp and other stuff-marvel was planning on "offing" all the x-men, wolverine lost his adamantium, daredevil got a new costume...i think most of this was brought on by the threat of image and valiant...and the other little guys that were at least starting to make some noise...

Like gowaltrip pointed out, the boom was already starting long before Valiant. You had:

-Spider-Man #1 by McFarlane
-X-Force #1 by Rob Liefeld and Fabian Nicieza
-X-Men #1 by Jim Lee and Chris Claremont
-Ghost Rider revival
-New Robin
-Clark Kent engaged to Lois Lane
-Sports cards investing bust somewhere around here, supposedly
-Articles popping up that point out comics' investment potential

And some other stuff that I can't remember at the moment.