Origin of Harada - discussion

[Dr. Solar]

Typically speaking, within fiction, there is always something in alternate realities that makes the new arrival aware that he's not in his own world, be it red meaning go and green meaning stop, Doors instead of Windows as a PC program, or Nixon still being President in 1985.

There is nothing liek those things in Second Death, there is no such indication that the world Phil arrived in was an alternate reality to his own... other than the existance of (if we focus solely on the first 11 issues of the series) Harbingers (Toyo in issue 3), Geomancers (Geoff in issue 10), and Immortals (Gilad also in issue 10).

There is the change in the magnetic field/change in location of Muskogee.

Is that herring not red enough for you?

[ManofTheAtom]

It could be argued that the first reality ceased to exist... because it was completely destroyed.

Again, check the dates in Unity #0. In the first page we see Erica floating in the void Phil created and are given a specific date. On the next page we see a different date after she arrives in the VALIANT Universe.

The second reality would be the "closest copy" of the first reality,
except that it would have new things like Geomancers, Harbingers, etc.
Both Phil and Gayle being "thrown into" the closest copy seems to make sense.

But then why would Erica be obsessed with fixing time and not realities?

Why would the tagline be that Time is not absolute? Why not say that Reality is not absolute?

All other realities would be "copies of copies", and the amount of changes would increase as you got further from the original... more exotic "mutations", more exotic alien species, stranger scenarios when compared to the original.

A valid theory, but is there any proof that it fits with VALIANT?

Erica's desire to destroy all of reality was a desire to "let it all die" the way the first reality died.

Well, her motivation was to "fix" time, put events in their proper order and whatnot. She wasn't focused on the alternate reality from where she came from.

Let me put it another way.

Erica's underlined motivation was to erase the abuse she suffered at her father's hands in the same fashion that Phil prevented the meltdown, right?

Why would she focus her efforts on altering time when, if alternate realities existed, she could have instead focused her efforts on finding a reality where her father didn't abuse her?

[ManofTheAtom]

Trying to approach this without ANY assumptions, there are a number of possibilities

a) Alternate realities. Nothing to really support the idea, but then again, nothing to really refute it either.

b) One reality, time line alterred by Seleski. Speculated by Phil as the explanation, but no independant evidence to support it.

c) Some other explanation (dream, virtual reality, etc). Always possible, but unlikely, imo, because there are any number of possibilities which can't be disproven.

IF we include stuff from Acclaim as part of the truth, then the alternate reality scenario becomes more likely, simply because we DO see alternate realities exist.

If we don't include Acclaim (or Deathmate, or anything else) then IMO the alternate reality scenario becomes less likely, simply because Phil never mentions or explores alternate realities....ALTHOUGH he does explore...what was it called...unreality? An area outside of reality? Perhaps that could be the location through which Phil travels to other realities. And remember, the "unreality" does exist in Unity, so it was part of Shooter's idea for VH-1.

Chris

Just because unreality existed it doesn't mean that it lead to other realities.

Puttting it another way (and going back to the multiverse theory),

If alternate realities existed outside of unreality, how was able to return to his reality of origin without getting lost and ending up in a different reality?

It's not like he left bread crumbs for him to follow, or a tetter (sp?) of some sort to pull himself back.

He went back and forth between the two with realtive ease for a being like him, without once expressing concern of getting lost on his way back home.

He was also able to send Geoff back home with no problem so he could bring the heroes back.

Remember, in early VALIANT comics the heroes weren't instinctively knowledgable about what they were dealing with, and didn't accept things at face value either.

Just because Phil was a man of the atom it didn't automatically mean that he knew how to use his powers, or that he had a road map from unreality to his reality in his head.

It's something about power and wisdom. Just because you have the power it doesn't mean you have the wisdom with what yo use it.

[cjv]

[Typically speaking, within fiction, there is always something in alternate realities that makes the new arrival aware that he's not in his own world, be it red meaning go and green meaning stop, Doors instead of Windows as a PC program, or Nixon still being President in 1985.

And having Geoff run into Phil might be just that. But if, for some reason, Phil was incined NOT to believe in alternate realities, he might interpret that as him having changed the past. Something he feels he created (subconsciously or not)

Delusions of grandeur...from a guy who admits he always wanted to be a super hero.

There is nothing liek those things in Second Death, there is no such indication that the world Phil arrived in was an alternate reality to his own... other than the existance of (if we focus solely on the first 11 issues of the series) Harbingers (Toyo in issue 3), Geomancers (Geoff in issue 10), and Immortals (Gilad also in issue 10).

By your OWN admission, there are such things, so why are you just discounting them? The fact the in Phil's "reality" geomancers, immortals, and harbingers did not exist, but in this reality they do! Heck, even if you believe they existed in Phil's reality, the fact that you keep bringing up that Geoff bumps into Phil in the restaraunt is evidence of a difference! You are interepretting it as a change in the time stream (as Phil did) but it could ALSO be interpretted as a different reality.

In fiction, events in alternate realities rarely, if ever, follow similar paths. It's the opposite, events in fact divert.

Okay, wait. let me get "MOTA's rules for alternate realities" straight.

1) There are always infinite alternate realities
2) The alternate realities rare, if ever, follow similar paths.

Well, right there, you have a conundrum. If you have an infinite set of realities, at SOME point those realities must have been similar, followed a similar path.

Just look at Stargate SG-1, where realities are different by the most minor or mayor of changes.

You know, for someone who continually rails against DC-lite and stuff like that, you sure are quick to bring in other science fiction templates as "evidence" to support your cause.

SO what if the difference between the VH-1 "reality" of the original Phil Seleski "reality" (let's call it VH-0) was simply that Phil stopped the reactor from exploding? That is a diverging point right there, which is something you are keen on.

In Second Death, events were following the same path as in Alpha & Omega, something that would only happen if Phil had traveled back in time. Had he traveled to a different reality, then events would have gone off in a tangent.

Again with your absolutes. What if in the different reality, it went off on a tanget at a different point.

And by using "if", you are working on the assumption that there is only one reality.

No, by using If I'm just not talking in absolutes. I don't believe for a second that there was an alternate reality in Second Death.

Right, you are working on the assumption that there is one reality. No alternate realities.

Pretty good, if there is only one alternate reality. Or, if as you hypothesize, Phil create Erica subconsciously to be his "villain", then perhaps he also subconsciously guided her to where he was!

Chris

Ah, but the multiverse theory negates the idea of only having two realities.

Man, you are talking about this like it is some real science fact. You are using "comic book theories" as if they are fact to negate possibilities in other comic books!

If you want an alternate reality then you have to accept an infinite number of realities, there's no other way around it.

If you really think there is no way around it, then you have a pretty closed mind!

It is possible that Phil acted as a beacon for Erica, I'll give you that, but that depends on the date of her arrival (which I'll bet is the same day of the accident or a date later, hence her statement about the world not meant to be there).

Not just a beacon, but PHil could have "guided" her through time/realities - given her a "push" in the right direction, if you will.

I believe Erica actually arrived after Phil, but I am not sure.


Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

We don't know that Geoff, as a geomancer, didn't exist before Solar destroyed the world. All we know is that they never met. That is purely conjecture. Not that it is WRONG, but it is an assumption. I agree witht he assumption, but do we agree that is what it is?

Plenty of things happened differently between the two versions, pre destruction and post destruction. Geoff coming into that restaurant could be one of them.

There were as many similarities as there were differences. Second Death #4 even used panels from Alpha & Omega.

I don't remember this from the comics. Cite your source!

I thought she was upset about the messed up nature of time.

I thought she was upset because she was an insecure whacko that got on a delusional power trip.


Again, Is there proof IN THE COMICS that Solar created the VU, or just that he found himself in it, for whatever reason, whether it was time travel, dimension travel, or whatever?

She was all of that.

[Dr. Solar]

I will assume that answer to my question is "no", since it doesn't seem to be able to be answered.

[slym2none]

Or it means that the anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, it was just on the verge of an explosion.

SOMETHING related to the reactor exploded, but it wasn't necessarily the anti-matter. It was something that could potentially cause a disaster if it reached the anti-matter containment grid or whatever, but it hadn't reached that far yet, which is why Phil thought that banging on the accelerators with a wrench would fix the problem.

Except that that is not how antimatter "works." No, I am convinced that there was no antimatter involved in this particular incident.



-slym

[Dr. Solar]

Are you asking for direct evidence in terms of character exposition, or evidence in terms of we see some in the VH-1 universe that we didn't see previously? If it is the latter, MOTA's example below is evidence, although it is not concrete.

I am asking if there is direct evidence in terms of character exposition.

[ManofTheAtom]

And having Geoff run into Phil might be just that. But if, for some reason, Phil was incined NOT to believe in alternate realities, he might interpret that as him having changed the past. Something he feels he created (subconsciously or not)

Delusions of grandeur...from a guy who admits he always wanted to be a super hero.

But Phil was also a scientist, meaning that he would have known if alternate realities could exist.

If he had thought for a moment that it was a possibility, he would have mentioned it.

By your OWN admission, there are such things, so why are you just discounting them? The fact the in Phil's "reality" geomancers, immortals, and harbingers did not exist, but in this reality they do! Heck, even if you believe they existed in Phil's reality, the fact that you keep bringing up that Geoff bumps into Phil in the restaraunt is evidence of a difference! You are interepretting it as a change in the time stream (as Phil did) but it could ALSO be interpretted as a different reality.

Right, Phil interpreted it at a change in the time stream. He, being a scientist, would know better than someone who isn't, right?

Okay, wait. let me get "MOTA's rules for alternate realities" straight.

1) There are always infinite alternate realities
2) The alternate realities rare, if ever, follow similar paths.

Well, right there, you have a conundrum. If you have an infinite set of realities, at SOME point those realities must have been similar, followed a similar path.

Not necessarily.

Sure, mathematically speaking that's how it should happen, but in fiction it never has happend like that.

Even in a show like Sliders when it seemed like they had finally come home when they saw that the Golden Gate was blue instead of red they realized they weren't.

You know, for someone who continually rails against DC-lite and stuff like that, you sure are quick to bring in other science fiction templates as "evidence" to support your cause.

SO what if the difference between the VH-1 "reality" of the original Phil Seleski "reality" (let's call it VH-0) was simply that Phil stopped the reactor from exploding? That is a diverging point right there, which is something you are keen on.

DC never had a clue of how to handle alternate realities. Shows like Sliders and Stargate did it MUCH better.

The difference betwen the two realities was Toyo Harada, who Doctor Solar met in issue 3, a meeting that predated the accident.

Again with your absolutes. What if in the different reality, it went off on a tanget at a different point.

It went on a tangent much earlier than the accident, with Harada's birth.

Right, you are working on the assumption that there is one reality. No alternate realities.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact supported by the comics.

If other realities existed, then Erica would have gone to find one where her father didn't abuse her, not spent 2000 years trying to erase it from the timeline.

Man, you are talking about this like it is some real science fact. You are using "comic book theories" as if they are fact to negate possibilities in other comic books!

I'm using fiction to debate fiction.

The multiverse theory I'm quoting you is from an episode of Stargate I saw last night.

If you really think there is no way around it, then you have a pretty closed mind!

You want the easy answer of there only being two realities. It doesn't work like that.

Not just a beacon, but PHil could have "guided" her through time/realities - given her a "push" in the right direction, if you will.

I believe Erica actually arrived after Phil, but I am not sure.

It makes sense for her to have arrived after Phil, hence her remark.

[depluto]

Well, at least we have proof that there is a vacuum that sucks all the joy out of life.

[ManofTheAtom]

Or it means that the anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, it was just on the verge of an explosion.

SOMETHING related to the reactor exploded, but it wasn't necessarily the anti-matter. It was something that could potentially cause a disaster if it reached the anti-matter containment grid or whatever, but it hadn't reached that far yet, which is why Phil thought that banging on the accelerators with a wrench would fix the problem.

Except that that is not how antimatter "works." No, I am convinced that there was no antimatter involved in this particular incident.



-slym

The anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, what exploded was what contained the anti-matter.

A car flips on its side and catches on fire. Does that mean that the gas tank exploded? No, it only means that the car caught on fire but until it exploded the gas tank is ok.

[slym2none]

Why would the tagline be that Time is not absolute? Why not say that Reality is not absolute?

Because it looks and sounds better on a cover of a comic book?



-slym

[Dr. Solar]

I have expended all of the "geek" that I have in me with this conversation. I can no longer geek out.

Carry on, gents.

[ManofTheAtom]

Why would the tagline be that Time is not absolute? Why not say that Reality is not absolute?

Because it looks and sounds better on a cover of a comic book?



-slym

Actually, Reality Is Not Absolute sounds much better.

[slym2none]

We don't know that Geoff, as a geomancer, didn't exist before Solar destroyed the world. All we know is that they never met. That is purely conjecture. Not that it is WRONG, but it is an assumption. I agree witht he assumption, but do we agree that is what it is?

Plenty of things happened differently between the two versions, pre destruction and post destruction. Geoff coming into that restaurant could be one of them.

There were as many similarities as there were differences.

Well, then by your own words, could Geoff's appearance in the restaurant be one of those differences, or not?





-slym

[greg]

I have expended all of the "geek" that I have in me with this conversation. I can no longer geek out.

Carry on, gents.

If you've ever seen a room full of dominos, it's common that all of them
fall at exactly the right moment, but somehow, one always remains
standing when the whole thing should be over.

It doesn't mean that domino is the "winner"... in fact, that one domino
is the reason the whole event DIDN'T get a perfect score.

Getting out of a conversation at the perfect time is an unimprovable action.

Knowing exactly when to get out is a little tougher.

Being that last domino and thinking that it's because all others are wrong, is folly.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, then by your own words, could Geoff's appearance in the restaurant be one of those differences, or not?





-slym

Geoff's apperance follows Toyo's apperance, the Spider-Alien's apperance, and the X-O Manowar's apperance, etc, etc.

Those things didn't make Phil think that he was in an alternate reality, did they?

[slym2none]

Or it means that the anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, it was just on the verge of an explosion.

SOMETHING related to the reactor exploded, but it wasn't necessarily the anti-matter. It was something that could potentially cause a disaster if it reached the anti-matter containment grid or whatever, but it hadn't reached that far yet, which is why Phil thought that banging on the accelerators with a wrench would fix the problem.

Except that that is not how antimatter "works." No, I am convinced that there was no antimatter involved in this particular incident.



-slym

The anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, what exploded was what contained the anti-matter.

A car flips on its side and catches on fire. Does that mean that the gas tank exploded? No, it only means that the car caught on fire but until it exploded the gas tank is ok.

Antimatter can only be contained in a magnetic vacuum - which, if ruptured, would not blow up just the reactor's dome. It wouldn't get the chance, because the antimatter would explode (annihilate is the correct term for this reaction) and boom, Muskogee is gone entirely.

Nope, my opinion is firm - it's not anti-matter.



-slym

[slym2none]

Why would the tagline be that Time is not absolute? Why not say that Reality is not absolute?

Because it looks and sounds better on a cover of a comic book?



-slym

Actually, Reality Is Not Absolute sounds much better.

Hah - that's all opinion, my friend.





-slym

[ManofTheAtom]

Or it means that the anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, it was just on the verge of an explosion.

SOMETHING related to the reactor exploded, but it wasn't necessarily the anti-matter. It was something that could potentially cause a disaster if it reached the anti-matter containment grid or whatever, but it hadn't reached that far yet, which is why Phil thought that banging on the accelerators with a wrench would fix the problem.

Except that that is not how antimatter "works." No, I am convinced that there was no antimatter involved in this particular incident.



-slym

The anti-matter hadn't exploded yet, what exploded was what contained the anti-matter.

A car flips on its side and catches on fire. Does that mean that the gas tank exploded? No, it only means that the car caught on fire but until it exploded the gas tank is ok.

Antimatter can only be contained in a magnetic vacuum - which, if ruptured, would not blow up just the reactor's dome. It wouldn't get the chance, because the antimatter would explode (annihilate is the correct term for this reaction) and boom, Muskogee is gone entirely.

Nope, my opinion is firm - it's not anti-matter.



-slym

Very well.

What other kinds of reactors requiere a magnetic botle and anti-proton pumps?

[slym2none]

Well, then by your own words, could Geoff's appearance in the restaurant be one of those differences, or not?





-slym

Geoff's apperance Toyo's apperance and the Spider-Alien's apperance, and the X-O Manowar's apperance, etc, etc.

Those things didn't make Phil think that he was in an alternate reality, did they?

Thanks for not answering what should be a "yes" or "no" question with something other than yes or no.

I have to go check the rest of the boards.....



-slym (BTW - it's spelled "appearance." )

[cjv]

I will assume that answer to my question is "no", since it doesn't seem to be able to be answered.

The only thing that is actually mentioned is speculation by Phil (paraphrasing) that he destroyed his universe, and in creating this one, changed something to result allow superheroes to be real.

I don't recall where it was stated.

Chris

[Dr. Solar]

I will assume that answer to my question is "no", since it doesn't seem to be able to be answered.

The only thing that is actually mentioned is speculation by Phil (paraphrasing) that he destroyed his universe, and in creating this one, changed something to result allow superheroes to be real.

I don't recall where it was stated.

Chris

OK. Cool. I'll look for this.

[cjv]

But Phil was also a scientist, meaning that he would have known if alternate realities could exist.

Why? I am a scientist, and I don't know.

You are talking about possibilities, and then assuming that Phil MUST know everything about everything?!?

If he had thought for a moment that it was a possibility, he would have mentioned it.

Unless he thought about it, and for some unknown reason, dismissed it.

Scientists are people, just like everyone else. If they go into a situation with a preconceived notion, they may be more likely to assume that notion is true.

As such, IF for some reason Phil did think he had just travelled through time (instead of travelling to an alternate universe) that might be the idea he "latched on to".

Right, Phil interpreted it at a change in the time stream. He, being a scientist, would know better than someone who isn't, right?

Dude, you are speculating about comic book science. And then using the idea that Phil 'should" know what was correct because he was a scientist.

Think about that for a second.

Okay, wait. let me get "MOTA's rules for alternate realities" straight.

1) There are always infinite alternate realities
2) The alternate realities rare, if ever, follow similar paths.

Well, right there, you have a conundrum. If you have an infinite set of realities, at SOME point those realities must have been similar, followed a similar path.

Not necessarily.

Sure, mathematically speaking that's how it should happen, but in fiction it never has happend like that.

Well, you are the one who is saying "these are the rules". No you are saying that sometimes it never happened like that? Make up your mind!

DC never had a clue of how to handle alternate realities. Shows like Sliders and Stargate did it MUCH better.

The difference betwen the two realities was Toyo Harada, who Doctor Solar met in issue 3, a meeting that predated the accident.

Not quite, because Phil Seleski never met Toyo in both realities, Solar did. In issue 3, Solar and Phil Seleski are still two different people, not merged yet.

Heck, it could be that something entirely DIFFERENT was the "difference" between the two realities, and it would have stayed that way UNTIL Solar forced his way into the reality (along with Erica Pierce).

It went on a tangent much earlier than the accident, with Harada's birth.

How do you know Harada wasn't born in VH-0?

It's not an assumption, it's a fact supported by the comics.

If other realities existed, then Erica would have gone to find one where her father didn't abuse her, not spent 2000 years trying to erase it from the timeline.

That, IMO, is one of the stronger arguments presented yet. However, it assumes that a) Erica KNEW there were alternate realities (again, perhaps she like Phil simply thought they travelled through time).

The multiverse theory I'm quoting you is from an episode of Stargate I saw last night.

And so tell me why, a fictional theory from a science fiction television show, HAS to also hold true in a completely different fictional realm of comic books?

If you really think there is no way around it, then you have a pretty closed mind!

You want the easy answer of there only being two realities. It doesn't work like that.

\

Again, says who? A completely different fictional television show dictates the rules for the fictional world of Valiant?

And lastly, I never said there ARE only two realities. I said that was a possibilitiy. Personally, I think that they truth is more like what you are saying, where Solar altered the timeline. But that doesn't mean that it HAS to be that way, or that solution is the ONLY one that works within the Valiant universe.

Chris

[cjv]

I have expended all of the "geek" that I have in me with this conversation. I can no longer geek out.

Carry on, gents.

If you've ever seen a room full of dominos, it's common that all of them
fall at exactly the right moment, but somehow, one always remains
standing when the whole thing should be over.

It doesn't mean that domino is the "winner"... in fact, that one domino
is the reason the whole event DIDN'T get a perfect score.

Getting out of a conversation at the perfect time is an unimprovable action.

Knowing exactly when to get out is a little tougher.

Being that last domino and thinking that it's because all others are wrong, is folly.

I WANT TO BE THE LAST DOMINO, DAMMIT!