Origin of Harada - discussion

[ManofTheAtom]

You did. It was in an early issue of Solar.

In one comic (a Solar one? something else) Solar speculated that he somehow (and I am paraphrasing) retroactiely changed history and the universe when he went through the black hole to allow for the creation of Harbingers, eternals, geomancers, etc. Heck, maybe even the spider aliens and such.

Prior to the black hole, I believe that geomancers, Harbingers, immortals did not exist. The Valiant Universe prior to the black hole really WAS the universe outside our window. After Seleski went back in time in the black hole, it became VH-1.

IMO.

Chris

I agree, but we never really saw this concept explored the way it should have been.

[ManofTheAtom]

Is that the quotes we remember about Solar creating unusual beings or is there more?

/Magnus

I think there's more.

[cjv]

I agree, but we never really saw this concept explored the way it should have been.

Yup. Although I am not sure HOW we can really explore it. I mean, there are different directions to take, and I am not sure how ANY of them could really be answered

1) How could someone in "our" world create a machine that allows him to modify our world to become VH-1. Obviously this is a stretch of the imagination right there.

2) What changes/modification were made in the timeline and fabric of reality to allow for the creation of VH-1. I mean, just going back in time shouldn't do it, so something must have been fundamentally alterred. What?

3) If it happened once, could it happen again? Multiple times? Revert "back to normal"? Parallel universes? (I don't want to get too Marvel or DC with multiple parallel universes, but that is one possible explanation to this - Solar didn't modify his universe, he "jumped" into a different one through the black hole).

Some of these would be interesting tangents to follow, but I am not sure how well they would do as a comic book series.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

1) How could someone in "our" world create a machine that allows him to modify our world to become VH-1. Obviously this is a stretch of the imagination right there.

Well, it's been suggested that Phil discovered a new science with his "wish machine", or that he created a new science with it, and that's how he was able to become Solar.

How was man able to fly? By using science.

How was man able to harness the power of the atom? Science.

How was man able to create electricity? Science (and I'm not refering to Franklin's discovery, but by how man creates electricity using dams and the like).

From an earlierdebate on this issue.

Shooter explored a similar idea to Phil's origin in Broadway's Shadow State, in which a man called Troy Hickenbottom, a prison inmate and comic book reader who shared a cell with a man called Leo, found himself transformed into his favorite comic book character from BloodS.C.R.E.A.M.

This is how Leo explains it to Troy:

Leo: "I want out of here as badly as you do... and I've found a way".

snip

Leo: "There are forces that shape the universe that can be summoned and harnessed by a highly focused mind. I've spent the last eighteen years studying, meditating, preparing. Tonight, at last, I will harness the power to free myself from this prison!"

Troy: "Yeah, you go ahead and try to think your way out. I wish I could pound my way out! I wish..."

A few minutes later, while Troy was ranting about his wife cheating on him he saw Leo, while meditating, floating over his bunk.

Troy: "How you'd do that?"

snip

Leo: "I told you, I spent decades developing the necessary disipline... endless days of fasting, chanting, creative visualization, studying ancient writings.

Substance is energy. Energy is fluid. Anything can be done."

(Now, doesn't that last part sound vaguely familiar? Hmmmm...)

snip

Leo: "For years I've been phisically preparing for the supreme effort of transformation. Tonight I will gather the free energy of the universe unto myself... Let it flow through me like a God..."

What happens next is that while Leo is "gathering the energy unto himself" for some reason it jumps from him to Troy and transforms him into Superion from BloodS.C.R.EA.M. while his wife (as shown in the following issue) is transformed into Afterglow.

Now, in issue 3 Troy and his wife return to ask Leo to turn them back and he tells them to break him out of jail so he can do it. After they do he explains angrily that he needed to leave because the prison library lacks the necessary books he needs to change them back.

When talking about what happened to Troy and his wife, Leo says:

Leo: "I was supposed to be empowered by the spell.

I wasn't expecting this... this ridicolous business. Probably has something to do with anger and the male sex drive, but who the hell knows?"

That may or may not have a parallel with what happened to Phil, who knows.

Either way, the argument could be made that Phil's years of work on the reactor and his longing for it to transform him into Doctor Solar are a direct parallel to Leo's years of study and awareness of the energy he talks about.

The main difference between Phil and Leo is that Leo was aware of what he was doing while Phil blindly and unconciously called forth those energies and that's what allowed his reactor to change him.

Or in simpler terms, "mind over matter".

IMO, it all has to do with how literally you take his comments.

Was it literally his wish that caused the machine to give him his powers? Does the machine litererally grant wishes? Only Phil's wishes?

Or was it a subconscious desire to become a superhero (his subconscious wish) that guided his hand in building a reactor without him really knowing what he was doing.

I was always under the assumption that the reactor he built was a little more than a normal nuclear reactor. IE, he was testing soe new science, some new facet of a nuclear reaction, etc. Since he was the head scientist, and it was his experiment, nobody would really question "why did you put this gizmo there", nobody but Phil really had any inkling of what his reactor was (not that it was a wish machine, but rather is was some sort of new experimental reactor - perhaps testing how "it's all about energy".

THIS is what "scratched the surface" - as the old line goes, he was dealing with powers he didn't really understand.

Now, did he build a machine to give him super powers? No, not purposefully. And would it give EVERYONE superpowers? Maybe, maybe not.

But what he did build was a machine that tested/examined/used some aspects of energy theory/nuclear theory. Something he was experimenting with, and he didn't consciously know what would happen. Somehow, the reactor experiment granted him his powers. Does he know how? Not really. Thus the sort of indirect comments about it being a wish machine. It's not that the machine literally granted him a wish, but rather the creation of the machine (and it's instability) resulted in a scenario where Phil got his greatest wish - to be a superhero.

Would it do the same for everyone? No, I don't think so (although if I recall, only Phil and Erica were in the area, so perhaps it WOULD do the same to anyone).

Once Phil HAD his powers, then he had virtually unlimited powers, (and probably understood the workings on his reactor more) and could shut it off with a thought.

That's has always been my interpretation. He didn't deliberately build a machine to fail, or one that literally granted him wishes. Instead he built a machine that was testing some scientific hypothesis, one that in turn enabled him to gain super powers. Perhaps ANY reactor design testing this energy/science hypothesis is inherently unstable, so despite who built it, despite how it was designe,d it would always fail.

In terms of what happened after A&O, it was my understanding that he (again, perhaps subcosciously) "recreated" the world after the black hole. It was a different place, because the "real world" in A&O didn't have the immortals, Harbingers, geomancers, etc. But the "new" earth did, and they had them well before Solar came into the world (since, after all, the Imortals and the Geomancers are pretty damn old). His recreation of the world altered something fundamentally that allowed these other beings to exist - not something he did purposefully or anything, but it happened all the same.

As for Erica appearing (in Unity 0), I always assumed she had simply gone "through" the black hole as well, much like Phil, and just had emerged at a different time than Phil did.

Anyway, that's my $.02.

Chris

2) What changes/modification were made in the timeline and fabric of reality to allow for the creation of VH-1. I mean, just going back in time shouldn't do it, so something must have been fundamentally alterred. What?

In (brrrrr) VH 2 the Man of The Atom was credited with creating that reality just by watching its big bang.

I think that in VALIANT what happened is that energy from the destruction of the universe reached all the way to the big bang and afected the universe, creating Harbingers, necromancers, and geomancers (at least that which Darque didn't absorb).

Remember, the Earth had been aware of the Sun demon since the first Geomancer was created.

3) If it happened once, could it happen again? Multiple times? Revert "back to normal"? Parallel universes? (I don't want to get too Marvel or DC with multiple parallel universes, but that is one possible explanation to this - Solar didn't modify his universe, he "jumped" into a different one through the black hole).

Erica wanted to revert it back to normal with her own wish machine, so maybe it is possible.

[cjv]

1) How could someone in "our" world create a machine that allows him to modify our world to become VH-1. Obviously this is a stretch of the imagination right there.

Well, it's been suggested that Phil discovered a new science with his "wish machine", or that he created a new science with it, and that's how he was able to become Solar.

How was man able to fly? By using science.

How was man able to harness the power of the atom? Science.

How was man able to create electricity? Science (and I'm not refering to Franklin's discovery, but by how man creates electricity using dams and the like).

From an earlierdebate on this issue.

Well, yeah, I know about the whole "wish machine" thing. However, there is a big stretch between sayingg that we can use scientific theories to create and harness electricity and using scientific theories to create "a wish machine". That's what I mean when there is a stretch right there.

Shooter explored a similar idea to Phil's origin in Broadway's Shadow State, in which a man called Troy Hickenbottom, a prison inmate and comic book reader who shared a cell with a man called Leo, found himself transformed into his favorite comic book character from BloodS.C.R.E.A.M.

This is how Leo explains it to Troy:

Leo: "I want out of here as badly as you do... and I've found a way".

snip

Leo: "There are forces that shape the universe that can be summoned and harnessed by a highly focused mind. I've spent the last eighteen years studying, meditating, preparing. Tonight, at last, I will harness the power to free myself from this prison!"

Troy: "Yeah, you go ahead and try to think your way out. I wish I could pound my way out! I wish..."

A few minutes later, while Troy was ranting about his wife cheating on him he saw Leo, while meditating, floating over his bunk.

Troy: "How you'd do that?"

snip

Leo: "I told you, I spent decades developing the necessary disipline... endless days of fasting, chanting, creative visualization, studying ancient writings.

Substance is energy. Energy is fluid. Anything can be done."

(Now, doesn't that last part sound vaguely familiar? Hmmmm...)

snip

Leo: "For years I've been phisically preparing for the supreme effort of transformation. Tonight I will gather the free energy of the universe unto myself... Let it flow through me like a God..."

What happens next is that while Leo is "gathering the energy unto himself" for some reason it jumps from him to Troy and transforms him into Superion from BloodS.C.R.EA.M. while his wife (as shown in the following issue) is transformed into Afterglow.

Now, in issue 3 Troy and his wife return to ask Leo to turn them back and he tells them to break him out of jail so he can do it. After they do he explains angrily that he needed to leave because the prison library lacks the necessary books he needs to change them back.

When talking about what happened to Troy and his wife, Leo says:

Leo: "I was supposed to be empowered by the spell.

I wasn't expecting this... this ridicolous business. Probably has something to do with anger and the male sex drive, but who the hell knows?"

That may or may not have a parallel with what happened to Phil, who knows.

Either way, the argument could be made that Phil's years of work on the reactor and his longing for it to transform him into Doctor Solar are a direct parallel to Leo's years of study and awareness of the energy he talks about.

All well and good...however, a big stretch of the imagination to say that this could happen outside our window, which we are theorizing the pre-VH-1 universe was. We can (and have, and probably will) discuss all we want about how Phil created his reactor, what it allowed him to do, etc - but that doesn't make any of it more "real" in the sense that you or I (or anyone) could do it! That is what I meant that we had to start with a stretch of the imagination assuming that Phils reactor (or wish machine, or unknowingly tapping into the power of the universe, or whatever) could happen.

2) What changes/modification were made in the timeline and fabric of reality to allow for the creation of VH-1. I mean, just going back in time shouldn't do it, so something must have been fundamentally alterred. What?

In (brrrrr) VH 2 the Man of The Atom was credited with creating that reality just by watching its big bang.

I think that in VALIANT what happened is that energy from the destruction of the universe reached all the way to the big bang and afected the universe, creating Harbingers, necromancers, and geomancers (at least that which Darque didn't absorb).

Remember, the Earth had been aware of the Sun demon since the first Geomancer was created.

Yup...but HOW did it change it? I mean, how did simply adding energy result in people like geomancers, immirtals, harbingers? Alien races? Battlesuits? etc? (Although for the record, it is possible that thingsl ike the spider aliens existed in VH-0).

Chris

[greg]

(Although for the record, it is possible that things like the spider aliens existed in VH-0).

Good point... either Spider Aliens already existed pre-Phil,
or Phil (subconsciously) created them and not only that,
his subconscious never allowed him to find their homeworld.

Perhaps they didn't have a homeworld.

[ManofTheAtom]

All well and good...however, a big stretch of the imagination to say that this could happen outside our window, which we are theorizing the pre-VH-1 universe was. We can (and have, and probably will) discuss all we want about how Phil created his reactor, what it allowed him to do, etc - but that doesn't make any of it more "real" in the sense that you or I (or anyone) could do it! That is what I meant that we had to start with a stretch of the imagination assuming that Phils reactor (or wish machine, or unknowingly tapping into the power of the universe, or whatever) could happen.

Remember in Back to the Future III the conversation that Doc Brown had with Clara about Jules Verne's books?

To her they were science fiction (like man will ever fly to the moon... yeah, right!), while to him it was reality (man WALKED on the moon!).

Maybe it's as simple as Phil's machine employing science that was centuries ahead of what everyone else was doing that turned it into a "wish machine" that granted him the wish to become Solar.

Yup...but HOW did it change it? I mean, how did simply adding energy result in people like geomancers, immirtals, harbingers? Alien races? Battlesuits? etc? (Although for the record, it is possible that thingsl ike the spider aliens existed in VH-0).

Chris

Oxygen is 02 and Ozone is 03.

The only thing that separates them is one atom (PUN intended).

The world Phil came from, our world, where he became Solar, was 02.

The world he appeared in after he went back in time was 03.

[cjv]

Remember in Back to the Future III the conversation that Doc Brown had with Clara about Jules Verne's books?

To her they were science fiction (like man will ever fly to the moon... yeah, right!), while to him it was reality (man WALKED on the moon!).

Maybe it's as simple as Phil's machine employing science that was centuries ahead of what everyone else was doing that turned it into a "wish machine" that granted him the wish to become Solar.

What is the quote? "Any sufficiently advanced civilization will appear as gods to those less advanced" - or something like that?

Sure, I suppose there is a theoretical possibilty that he was simply somehow emplying highly advanced technology, something that is centuries away from what we have now.

However, I would have to guess that it is unlikely. The idea that a machine is capable of being built that could so fundamentally alter reality is a bit more of a stretch, IMO, than the notion of someone walking on the moon to a person in the 1800's.

Yup...but HOW did it change it? I mean, how did simply adding energy result in people like geomancers, immirtals, harbingers? Alien races? Battlesuits? etc? (Although for the record, it is possible that thingsl ike the spider aliens existed in VH-0).

Chris

Oxygen is 02 and Ozone is 03.

The only thing that separates them is one atom (PUN intended).

The world Phil came from, our world, where he became Solar, was 02.

The world he appeared in after he went back in time was 03.

An anlogy, but it doesn't answer the question (and it ignores the fact the we currently have both oxygen and ozone). Oxygen and Oxone CAN exist in our universe - a harbinger (presumably) can not. So what gets changed in the fabric of reality that allows a harbinger to exist? One small atom during the first milisecond of the big bang got shifted 0.1 microns to the left, and suddenly Harbinger and geomancers exist?

What might be interesting is if it turns out that there really isn't anything that is changed - rather it is simply Phil's powers that allow it to happen without his conscious control. That is, Phil's powers are somehow, subconsciously, infiltrating EVERY person, being, atom in the univers of VH-1, at all times, and allowing magical, supernatural things to happen. So the universe is, in fact, the same, and if Phil were to die/be killed/vanish/whatever, all of a sudden it would change back to "our" universe. Imagine Harada waking up one day not able to use his powers because they don't really exist after he kills Solar, or something like that. This could play back into the idea that Phil "saw" the big bang, and somehow his powers were imbued into EVERYTHING particle, every atom in the universe - not consciously, but all powers are the results of a minute amount of "Solar energy" that people have in them.

Maybe Harbingers simply have a little more "Solar energy" than normal people do.

Chris

[cjv]

BTW, one difference between Jules Verne "flying to the moon" and the Solar wish machine is that Verne based his concepts on existing science, so they may have been theoretically possible.

For Solar's machine, we have NO idea how it was built, what it did, how it worked. It was just descibed as a reactor. So without knowing more about the actual machine (what did it do? what was it supposed to do?) we have no way to know if it is based on current scientific concepts or just a convenient mechanism to have granted Solar his powers!

You can speculate that it uses technology centuries advanced, but there is no evidence of it. We know nothing about it, how it was built, anything.

And you know, I am fine with the leap of faith, so to speak. A superhero world requires some stretch of the imagination at some point. Valiant was GREAT about trying to keep as much "real" as possible (and I hope they continue to do so) but at some point we need a break from what it "real" in order to establish the superhero universe. If we didn't, we would simply have our universe with people dressing up in spandex - "Who wants to be a superhero?" reality TV show. And Phil's "wish machine" is a fine method for establishing the superhero possibility.


Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

What is the quote? "Any sufficiently advanced civilization will appear as gods to those less advanced" - or something like that?

Yeah, gods or magic. It changes between the two.

Sure, I suppose there is a theoretical possibilty that he was simply somehow employing highly advanced technology, something that is centuries away from what we have now.

However, I would have to guess that it is unlikely. The idea that a machine is capable of being built that could so fundamentally alter reality is a bit more of a stretch, IMO, than the notion of someone walking on the moon to a person in the 1800's.

In the Fly Seth Brundle created teleportation, an idea seen many times in science fiction which in the fictional world of the Fly was considered cutting edge and advanced science that didn't exist until he created it.

What Seth did was no different than what Phil did.

An anlogy, but it doesn't answer the question (and it ignores the fact the we currently have both oxygen and ozone). Oxygen and Oxone CAN exist in our universe - a harbinger (presumably) can not. So what gets changed in the fabric of reality that allows a harbinger to exist? One small atom during the first milisecond of the big bang got shifted 0.1 microns to the left, and suddenly Harbinger and geomancers exist?

Or one atom was added to the secret recepie humans are made out of.

You asked how the energy from the accident being sent back to the big bang could have changed the universe so Harbingers could exist.

The answer is O2 and 03

Take one atom out of ozone and you have oxygen, add one atom to oxygen and you have ozone.

Take one atom away from the VALIANT U and you have our universe, add one atom to our universe and you have the VALIANT Universe.

What might be interesting is if it turns out that there really isn't anything that is changed - rather it is simply Phil's powers that allow it to happen without his conscious control. That is, Phil's powers are somehow, subconsciously, infiltrating EVERY person, being, atom in the univers of VH-1, at all times, and allowing magical, supernatural things to happen. So the universe is, in fact, the same, and if Phil were to die/be killed/vanish/whatever, all of a sudden it would change back to "our" universe. Imagine Harada waking up one day not able to use his powers because they don't really exist after he kills Solar, or something like that. This could play back into the idea that Phil "saw" the big bang, and somehow his powers were imbued into EVERYTHING particle, every atom in the universe - not consciously, but all powers are the results of a minute amount of "Solar energy" that people have in them.

Solar dies in Invasion, so if that theory were right then everything after that moment would have reverted back to what it was before Solar's existance altered it.

That means that Magnus would no longer be able to smash robots, Rai would no longer be able to use the energy given to him by Grandmother. that the Psilords wouldn't exist because their bodies would reject the nanites, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe Harbingers simply have a little more "Solar energy" than normal people do.

In VH 2 it was the Man of the Atom's arrival in the present that triggered the creation of the Harbingers, so while that theory applies to that universe it doesn't apply to the original version.

[ManofTheAtom]

BTW, one difference between Jules Verne "flying to the moon" and the Solar wish machine is that Verne based his concepts on existing science, so they may have been theoretically possible.

For Solar's machine, we have NO idea how it was built, what it did, how it worked. It was just descibed as a reactor. So without knowing more about the actual machine (what did it do? what was it supposed to do?) we have no way to know if it is based on current scientific concepts or just a convenient mechanism to have granted Solar his powers!

Sure, but we're supposed to believe that it was based on real science, unlike the version from the original Doctor Solar comics.

You can speculate that it uses technology centuries advanced, but there is no evidence of it. We know nothing about it, how it was built, anything.

Sure there is. It turned a man into a god. What more evidence do you need?

And you know, I am fine with the leap of faith, so to speak. A superhero world requires some stretch of the imagination at some point. Valiant was GREAT about trying to keep as much "real" as possible (and I hope they continue to do so) but at some point we need a break from what it "real" in order to establish the superhero universe. If we didn't, we would simply have our universe with people dressing up in spandex - "Who wants to be a superhero?" reality TV show. And Phil's "wish machine" is a fine method for establishing the superhero possibility.

Phil's wish machine is from where everything else in the VALIANT Universe sprung out of.

The BEST example of Geomancers, Harbingers, and Necromancers NOT existing in the Alpha & Omega reality before Phil destroyed the universe is in Solar #10.




Go check Solar #10 and you'll see that the dinner scene in that issue is the SAME as the dinner scene in Alpha & Omega. The dialogue is the same even if they're dressed differently.

The major difference between the scenes is that Geoff the Geomancer breaks into the restaurant and accuses Phil of destroying the world.

Had Geoff existed in the A&O universe he would have done the same thing.

I mean, think about it.

In A&O Phil DID destroy the world, but the Earth wasn't paranoid enough to create Geomancers to try to stop him.

[cjv]

What is the quote? "Any sufficiently advanced civilization will appear as gods to those less advanced" - or something like that?

Yeah, gods or magic. It changes between the two.

I knew it was something like that.

Sure, I suppose there is a theoretical possibilty that he was simply somehow employing highly advanced technology, something that is centuries away from what we have now.

However, I would have to guess that it is unlikely. The idea that a machine is capable of being built that could so fundamentally alter reality is a bit more of a stretch, IMO, than the notion of someone walking on the moon to a person in the 1800's.

In the Fly Seth Brundle created teleportation, an idea seen many times in science fiction which in the fictional world of the Fly was considered cutting edge and advanced science that didn't exist until he created it.

What Seth did was no different than what Phil did.

And both are fictional. We have not created a teleportation machine, or a wish machine.

I haven't seen The Fly in a long time, but I can't remember if they described how the teleportation machine was supposed to work. It would take someone with a physics background far stronger than I to rule it possible or not.

However, we are NEVER told how the "wish machine" works, what it is based on.

It's sort of like Michael Crichton. His writing is clearly science fiction, but it is based on theories that we know of today, and extrapolating them somewhat. So you might consider it plausible science fiction (focusing more on the science than the fiction). The wish machine, AFAIK, is not based on any current theories, and thus is more an aspect of "fiction" then science.

Within the Valiant universe they tried to focus on the science - real theories, real explanations, etc. But this is one of the few times they focused more on the "fiction" element rather than the "science" element.

Or one atom was added to the secret recepie humans are made out of.

You asked how the energy from the accident being sent back to the big bang could have changed the universe so Harbingers could exist.

The answer is O2 and 03

Take one atom out of ozone and you have oxygen, add one atom to oxygen and you have ozone.

Take one atom away from the VALIANT U and you have our universe, add one atom to our universe and you have the VALIANT Universe.

Yes, and I am saying what is that one atom? What one change (if any) was made? I understand your analogy of oxygen and ozone - I am speculating what the specific change WAS.

What might be interesting is if it turns out that there really isn't anything that is changed - rather it is simply Phil's powers that allow it to happen without his conscious control. That is, Phil's powers are somehow, subconsciously, infiltrating EVERY person, being, atom in the univers of VH-1, at all times, and allowing magical, supernatural things to happen. So the universe is, in fact, the same, and if Phil were to die/be killed/vanish/whatever, all of a sudden it would change back to "our" universe. Imagine Harada waking up one day not able to use his powers because they don't really exist after he kills Solar, or something like that. This could play back into the idea that Phil "saw" the big bang, and somehow his powers were imbued into EVERYTHING particle, every atom in the universe - not consciously, but all powers are the results of a minute amount of "Solar energy" that people have in them.

Solar dies in Invasion, so if that theory were right then everything after that moment would have reverted back to what it was before Solar's existance altered it.

That means that Magnus would no longer be able to smash robots, Rai would no longer be able to use the energy given to him by Grandmother. that the Psilords wouldn't exist because their bodies would reject the nanites, etc, etc, etc.[/quote]

Wasn't the Destoryer still alive?

Maybe Harbingers simply have a little more "Solar energy" than normal people do.

In VH 2 it was the Man of the Atom's arrival in the present that triggered the creation of the Harbingers, so while that theory applies to that universe it doesn't apply to the original version.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

[cjv]

BTW, one difference between Jules Verne "flying to the moon" and the Solar wish machine is that Verne based his concepts on existing science, so they may have been theoretically possible.

For Solar's machine, we have NO idea how it was built, what it did, how it worked. It was just descibed as a reactor. So without knowing more about the actual machine (what did it do? what was it supposed to do?) we have no way to know if it is based on current scientific concepts or just a convenient mechanism to have granted Solar his powers!

Sure, but we're supposed to believe that it was based on real science, unlike the version from the original Doctor Solar comics.

But we don't know what that "real science" is.

You can speculate that it uses technology centuries advanced, but there is no evidence of it. We know nothing about it, how it was built, anything.

Sure there is. It turned a man into a god. What more evidence do you need?

I think you are missing my point. You are postulating that Phil's "wish machine" may use centuries advanced real technology and theory. I am saying you could postulate that, but there is no real evidence that anything like that is possible in current accepted real scientifc theoy (as opposed to something like Jules Verne, which WAS based to some degree on existing scientific theory). You then offer evidence for the real theory as it turned someone into a god in a comic book?

Huh?

Phil's wish machine is from where everything else in the VALIANT Universe sprung out of.

On this we agree.

In A&O Phil DID destroy the world, but the Earth wasn't paranoid enough to create Geomancers to try to stop him.

Because A&O was OUR world, where Geomancers don't exist. And I think we agree on that, right?

Basically, what I am saying is that A&O is our world (and I think you agree). There is this "wish machine" that powers up Phil, he destroys our world and recreates it as the VH-1 universe (with harbingers, immortals, geomancers, etc). Within the VH-1 universe, they tried to keep it very "real" - GIVEN the major break that these powers and being can, and do, exist.

However, in A&O (our world) we have this magical wish machine. We have no idea how it works, what it does, or anything. It isn't based on any science that we know of, or anything scientific theories that are currently known or accepted. So the preliminary "breka from reality" is the ability to invent this wish machine - which in the "real" world would not exist. We have to suspect our disbelief and accept that Phil can invent this - and everything Valiant springs from that preliminary suspension of disbelief.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

And both are fictional. We have not created a teleportation machine, or a wish machine.

I haven't seen The Fly in a long time, but I can't remember if they described how the teleportation machine was supposed to work. It would take someone with a physics background far stronger than I to rule it possible or not.

However, we are NEVER told how the "wish machine" works, what it is based on.

It's sort of like Michael Crichton. His writing is clearly science fiction, but it is based on theories that we know of today, and extrapolating them somewhat. So you might consider it plausible science fiction (focusing more on the science than the fiction). The wish machine, AFAIK, is not based on any current theories, and thus is more an aspect of "fiction" then science.

Within the Valiant universe they tried to focus on the science - real theories, real explanations, etc. But this is one of the few times they focused more on the "fiction" element rather than the "science" element.

The science behind Phil's machine is that everything is energy, and that all depends on how you move it (just like how for Shadowman everything is jazz and that all depends on how you play it).

Yes, and I am saying what is that one atom? What one change (if any) was made? I understand your analogy of oxygen and ozone - I am speculating what the specific change WAS.

It could either be Phil's arrival in 1991 prior to the accident or some alteration to the big bang.

The reason I say that the alteration began at the big bang is because the existance of necromancers, harbingers, and geomancers in the VU predate Phil's actual arrival, meaning that "the atom" was added long before 1991.

Wasn't the Destroyer still alive?

Sure.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Solar's observation of Aric's manipulation of the VALIANT Universe using the Cosmic Cube create the creation of Acclaim characters that predated the Harbingers.

Man of the Atom's appearance in the present sparked the Harbinger gene in the Acclaim universe.

In the VALIANT Universe, creatures like geo's, necro's, and har's existed before Solar appeared.

Either someone observed the creation of the VALIANT Universe and gave way to these beings, or it's all connected to Solar's origin.

(peeks into the creation of the universe)

ooooh, is that a hand?

[ManofTheAtom]

But we don't know what that "real science" is.

I think you are missing my point. You are postulating that Phil's "wish machine" may use centuries advanced real technology and theory. I am saying you could postulate that, but there is no real evidence that anything like that is possible in current accepted real scientifc theoy (as opposed to something like Jules Verne, which WAS based to some degree on existing scientific theory). You then offer evidence for the real theory as it turned someone into a god in a comic book?

Huh?

As I said, the science used in the Solar comics is "it's all energy, it's in how you move it".... or now that I think about it, I think it's more "energy and matter are the same"

E=mc2, science doesn't get any more real than that

Because A&O was OUR world, where Geomancers don't exist. And I think we agree on that, right?

Sure.

Basically, what I am saying is that A&O is our world (and I think you agree). There is this "wish machine" that powers up Phil, he destroys our world and recreates it as the VH-1 universe (with harbingers, immortals, geomancers, etc). Within the VH-1 universe, they tried to keep it very "real" - GIVEN the major break that these powers and being can, and do, exist.

Yeah.

However, in A&O (our world) we have this magical wish machine. We have no idea how it works, what it does, or anything. It isn't based on any science that we know of, or anything scientific theories that are currently known or accepted. So the preliminary "breka from reality" is the ability to invent this wish machine - which in the "real" world would not exist. We have to suspect our disbelief and accept that Phil can invent this - and everything Valiant springs from that preliminary suspension of disbelief.

See above

[Dr. Solar]

I finally got my hardcover yesterday. Rock and roll! Of course I skipped right to the back of it to read the new stuff.

In one of the panels, it mentions "at the corner of Gilman and Buchanan in Berkeley". I though about this for a minute, then realized this is right by where I used to live!

The circle is the intersection depicted in the origin story. It is right on the bay, across from the Golden Gate Bridge, as shown in the story.

The arrow in the pic is the house I used to live at for 2 years while going to UC Berkeley, and for the 3 years after.

I used to jog and ride my bike through this intersection all the time.

At first I thought that they goofed, because my house was off of Buchanan St. One house from the intersection of Taylor St and Buchanan St, to be exact. Buchanan Street runs parrallel to Gilman, though apparently the portion that runs along the waterfront on the other side of Golden Gate Fields (a horseracing track) is considered an extension of Buchanan St.

They really did their homework!

[ManofTheAtom]

Heh, very cool!

[Dr. Solar]

There were a lot of other cool things, like mentioning the Piedmont area and traffic on the 580. I'VE been stuck on traffic on the 580!

[ManofTheAtom]

There were a lot of other cool things, like mentioning the Piedmont area and traffic on the 580. I'VE been stuck on traffic on the 580!

[cjv]

But we don't know what that "real science" is.

I think you are missing my point. You are postulating that Phil's "wish machine" may use centuries advanced real technology and theory. I am saying you could postulate that, but there is no real evidence that anything like that is possible in current accepted real scientifc theoy (as opposed to something like Jules Verne, which WAS based to some degree on existing scientific theory). You then offer evidence for the real theory as it turned someone into a god in a comic book?

Huh?

As I said, the science used in the Solar comics is "it's all energy, it's in how you move it".... or now that I think about it, I think it's more "energy and matter are the same"

That is how Solar explains HIS powers - not how he GOT his powers or anything.

Given that he said he was building a reactor, no mention is made of a machine that works on "moving energy" or anything like that.

So I stand by my statement.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

But we don't know what that "real science" is.

I think you are missing my point. You are postulating that Phil's "wish machine" may use centuries advanced real technology and theory. I am saying you could postulate that, but there is no real evidence that anything like that is possible in current accepted real scientifc theoy (as opposed to something like Jules Verne, which WAS based to some degree on existing scientific theory). You then offer evidence for the real theory as it turned someone into a god in a comic book?

Huh?

As I said, the science used in the Solar comics is "it's all energy, it's in how you move it".... or now that I think about it, I think it's more "energy and matter are the same"

That is how Solar explains HIS powers - not how he GOT his powers or anything.

Given that he said he was building a reactor, no mention is made of a machine that works on "moving energy" or anything like that.

So I stand by my statement.

Chris

E=mc2

That's the science behind the machine, that energy and matter are the same.

You asked what the science was, not what the proces was.

[Chiclo]

Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple?

E^2 = (pc)^2 + (m[sub-naught])^2 * c^4.

For an object at rest... yeah, p (rho, inertia) = 0.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple?

It could be as simple as what makes an airplane stay up in the air, negating the law of gravity.

[Dr. Solar]

Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple?

It could be as simple as what makes an airplane stay up in the air, negating the law of gravity.

Explain it to me then, because in my aeronautical engineering class, I remember it not being that simple.

Really, refresh my memory.

Especially the part about "negating the law of gravity". I don't remember anything about that in of my science or engineering classes.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple?

It could be as simple as what makes an airplane stay up in the air, negating the law of gravity.

Explain it to me then, because in my aeronautical engineering class, I remember it not being that simple.

Really, refresh my memory.

The turbines keep it up.

That's how they stay up. The process involved might be complex, but that's the gist of it, and there's a science behind it.

Same goes for Solar, where the science is E=m2 and the reactor is like the turbines.

The only thing left to answer is the question of how the process turned Phil into energy (how he turned back is easily answered. Once he became energy, he willed himself back into a man).