README FIRST: The Re-Reading Valiant Project

A week-to-week plan is available for re-reading VALIANT from the beginning...
start anytime, go at your own pace.

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Post by greg »

Well, given that it is an "Origin of Harada" by Jim Shooter, I'd say that it fits with Harbinger #0 (the coupons, anyway).

:D

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

greg wrote:Well, given that it is an "Origin of Harada" by Jim Shooter, I'd say that it fits with Harbinger #0 (the coupons, anyway).

:D
Heh.

But the rest of the story, which introduces two new characters, probably takes place in the present.

Toyo's age as given in the Foundation's myspace page proves that.

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Post by greg »

ManofTheAtom wrote:
greg wrote:Well, given that it is an "Origin of Harada" by Jim Shooter, I'd say that it fits with Harbinger #0 (the coupons, anyway).

:D
Heh.

But the rest of the story, which introduces two new characters, probably takes place in the present.

Toyo's age as given in the Foundation's myspace page proves that.
I don't know... if you're telling the origin of Harada, you could talk about his grandmother or something,
and it could still be a new character (from the 1940s or earlier).

All we know at this point is that VEI "accepts" Harbinger up to #7.
I would assume they're "fans" of the Unity story, so Harbinger #8 & #9
are probably "solid foundation", but I don't know if we can conclude
that books like Harbinger #26 will be "canon" for them...
much less that 2007 is somehow going to be addressed
in a story set in the past.

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

greg wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
greg wrote:Well, given that it is an "Origin of Harada" by Jim Shooter, I'd say that it fits with Harbinger #0 (the coupons, anyway).

:D
Heh.

But the rest of the story, which introduces two new characters, probably takes place in the present.

Toyo's age as given in the Foundation's myspace page proves that.
I don't know... if you're telling the origin of Harada, you could talk about his grandmother or something,
and it could still be a new character (from the 1940s or earlier).

All we know at this point is that VEI "accepts" Harbinger up to #7.
I would assume they're "fans" of the Unity story, but I don't know
if we can conclude that even Harbinger #26 is "canon" for them...
much less that 2007 is going to be addressed in a story set in the past.
Well, we don't know that the story is set in the past. We know that at least parts of it are (and those parts are panels that may or may not be expanded in the story just like they could just be reprinted in between new panels by Hall).

I wouldn't say that because the HC only includes up to issue 7 that they don't accept anything after that. They probably just wanted to print a complete story... that plus issues 8 and 9 are part of Unity so it doesn't make sense to reprint them without the rest of it.

I say that 2007 is part of the story mostly due to Toyo's age on their myspace page, which says that he's 55 years old, which (give or take) is how old he'd be today, not how old he was in 92.

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Post by myron »

all supposition... :roll: ...just wait another month and read it.

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Post by Zero »

ManofTheAtom wrote:I say that 2007 is part of the story mostly due to Toyo's age on their myspace page, which says that he's 55 years old, which (give or take) is how old he'd be today, not how old he was in 92.
You definitely take something small & run with it... That could very well have NOTHING to do with the comic insert. It's best if we all just take Myron's advice & just wait a month.

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

A month.... pffft... how about waiting a week for San Diego and see what info I can get there?

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Post by Zero »

ManofTheAtom wrote:A month.... pffft... how about waiting a week for San Diego and see what info I can get there?
Works for me. :thumb: Let us know what you find out.

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

I asked greg the other day what it feels like to finally update the comic gallery once the hardcover comes out.

I failed to realize that I'm going to have to update the reading order checklist when I get my copy to put the new story in its proper place in it.

That's gonna rule :)

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Post by magnusr »

ManofTheAtom wrote:I asked greg the other day what it feels like to finally update the comic gallery once the hardcover comes out.

I failed to realize that I'm going to have to update the reading order checklist when I get my copy to put the new story in its proper place in it.

That's gonna rule :)
:thumb:

/Magnus

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

magnusr wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:I asked greg the other day what it feels like to finally update the comic gallery once the hardcover comes out.

I failed to realize that I'm going to have to update the reading order checklist when I get my copy to put the new story in its proper place in it.

That's gonna rule :)
:thumb:

/Magnus
And now that I think about it, if VEI's universe ignores everything after Unity I'm going to have to redo the whole list and take stuff out, like Timewalker #0, Unity the Lost Chapters, and other stuff that came out after Unity but takes place before it... I think the Magnus Yearbook qualifies for that too.

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Post by Fanboy375 »

I hope that everything after unity to chaos effect stays in. I loved the story in X-O where Aric's armor dies and he is forced to find a new set.

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Post by Daniel Jackson »

Fanboy375 wrote:I hope that everything after unity to chaos effect stays in. I loved the story in X-O where Aric's armor dies and he is forced to find a new set.
I would rather see them bring Shanhara back. I never cared much for the way the story line went with the second suit. I think merging it with Paul Bouvier to become Pol-Bekhara was big mistake. It just eventually led to the series spiraling into nothing more than an Image title.

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

Daniel Jackson wrote:
Fanboy375 wrote:I hope that everything after unity to chaos effect stays in. I loved the story in X-O where Aric's armor dies and he is forced to find a new set.
I would rather see them bring Shanhara back. I never cared much for the way the story line went with the second suit. I think merging it with Paul Bouvier to become Pol-Bekhara was big mistake. It just eventually led to the series spiraling into nothing more than an Image title.
Don't judge the idea by the execution, though.

I thought that this was a great way for Aric to get an upgrade for the Good Skin, something that all tech-based hero needs.

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Post by Daniel Jackson »

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
Fanboy375 wrote:I hope that everything after unity to chaos effect stays in. I loved the story in X-O where Aric's armor dies and he is forced to find a new set.
I would rather see them bring Shanhara back. I never cared much for the way the story line went with the second suit. I think merging it with Paul Bouvier to become Pol-Bekhara was big mistake. It just eventually led to the series spiraling into nothing more than an Image title.
Don't judge the idea by the execution, though.

I thought that this was a great way for Aric to get an upgrade for the Good Skin, something that all tech-based hero needs.
I don't mind them improving the suit I would just have preferred that they found another way to upgrade it without killing off the original. The "death" of Shanhara may have made for an exciting, unexpected story arc, but the book just had a different feel to it altogether after that.

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

Daniel Jackson wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
Fanboy375 wrote:I hope that everything after unity to chaos effect stays in. I loved the story in X-O where Aric's armor dies and he is forced to find a new set.
I would rather see them bring Shanhara back. I never cared much for the way the story line went with the second suit. I think merging it with Paul Bouvier to become Pol-Bekhara was big mistake. It just eventually led to the series spiraling into nothing more than an Image title.
Don't judge the idea by the execution, though.

I thought that this was a great way for Aric to get an upgrade for the Good Skin, something that all tech-based hero needs.
I don't mind them improving the suit I would just have preferred that they found another way to upgrade it without killing off the original. The "death" of Shanhara may have made for an exciting, unexpected story arc, but the book just had a different feel to it altogether after that.
If the original doesn't die then Aric doesn't need a second suit.

Aric shouldn't be like Iron Man and have an armory filled with Good Skins.

Since the Good Skin is a living being it's ok for it to die and be replaced by its cousin, brother, or however you'd like to call its replacement skin.

And again, the idea isn't to be blamed for the execution.

I don't like that the story lead to the creation of Alloy, but that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of one good skin dying and being replaced with another.

Only other way for Aric to upgrade his armor would have been for the Good Skin to upgrade itself... but as a living being, how could it do that?

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Post by Daniel Jackson »

ManofTheAtom wrote: If the original doesn't die then Aric doesn't need a second suit.

Aric shouldn't be like Iron Man and have an armory filled with Good Skins.

Since the Good Skin is a living being it's ok for it to die and be replaced by its cousin, brother, or however you'd like to call its replacement skin.

And again, the idea isn't to be blamed for the execution.

I don't like that the story lead to the creation of Alloy, but that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of one good skin dying and being replaced with another.

Only other way for Aric to upgrade his armor would have been for the Good Skin to upgrade itself... but as a living being, how could it do that?
See, that's the thing, I don't think he needed a new suit at all. I'm sure the writers could have come up with a way to have the suit evolve into another unexpected level due to something Aric did making it the ultimate manowar class or maybe it could be a fluke by having Shanhara encounter something that causes it to modify itself. Death isn't always necessary to move forward with something.

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

Daniel Jackson wrote:See, that's the thing, I don't think he needed a new suit at all. I'm sure the writers could have come up with a way to have the suit evolve into another unexpected level due to something Aric did making it the ultimate manowar class or maybe it could be a fluke by having Shanhara encounter something that causes it to modify itself. Death isn't always necessary to move forward with something.
Tech needs to be upgraded, that's a given in fiction and in real life.

Your new computer becomes outdated within a week or a month after you bought it.

It doesn't stand to reason that Aric's first armor would still be cutting edge 73 years after he got it (from 1991 when he adquired it to 2064 when he sent it out into space), not unless the Good Skin has a way to upgrade itself on its own, which is something that was never established in the comic.

We were told that the X-O Manowar armor class (meaning each and every one of them) where the most powerful weapons in the universe and that it takes 2,000 years to grow one, but that's it.

That didn't mean that they'd be cutting edge for as long as they lived or that they were indestructible.

Now, of course, that begs the question of how exactly one X-O Manowar armor grown five years after a previous one can be considered cutting-edge or an upgrade.

That may have to do with HOW they're grown. (i.e. they take attributes of the being they gestate in).

Think of the X-O armors as you would a Xenomorph from Alien.

If the Xeno gestates within a dog it comes out with certain attributes, like being small and only able to walk on four legs, while if it gestates within a human he's tall and can walk upright.... or if he gestates within a Predator he comes out with Predator facial features.

Aric's first good skin was grown within a Spider-Alien, while the second one was grown within a human. That's what made the second skin an upgrade over the first one, making humans better gestation chambers for X-O Manowars.

Didn't he have a third armor after the second one became Alloy? I don't remember where he got that one.

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Post by Zaphod »

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
Fanboy375 wrote:I hope that everything after unity to chaos effect stays in. I loved the story in X-O where Aric's armor dies and he is forced to find a new set.
I would rather see them bring Shanhara back. I never cared much for the way the story line went with the second suit. I think merging it with Paul Bouvier to become Pol-Bekhara was big mistake. It just eventually led to the series spiraling into nothing more than an Image title.
Don't judge the idea by the execution, though.

I thought that this was a great way for Aric to get an upgrade for the Good Skin, something that all tech-based hero needs.
I don't mind them improving the suit I would just have preferred that they found another way to upgrade it without killing off the original. The "death" of Shanhara may have made for an exciting, unexpected story arc, but the book just had a different feel to it altogether after that.
If the original doesn't die then Aric doesn't need a second suit.

Aric shouldn't be like Iron Man and have an armory filled with Good Skins.

Since the Good Skin is a living being it's ok for it to die and be replaced by its cousin, brother, or however you'd like to call its replacement skin.

And again, the idea isn't to be blamed for the execution.

I don't like that the story lead to the creation of Alloy, but that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of one good skin dying and being replaced with another.

Only other way for Aric to upgrade his armor would have been for the Good Skin to upgrade itself... but as a living being, how could it do that?
My OS does upgrades automatically all of the time. Shanhara is sentience but it is also mechanical and technology. For all that Shanhara is, we really don't know that much about it so there are any number of reasons it could upgrade or adapt itself to its environment whether that is upgrading or evolving into something more

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

MProyas wrote:My OS does upgrades automatically all of the time. Shanhara is sentience but it is also mechanical and technology. For all that Shanhara is, we really don't know that much about it so there are any number of reasons it could upgrade or adapt itself to its environment whether that is upgrading or evolving into something more
There are times when technology that upgrades itself becomes outdated or incompatible with other tech.

For instance, my windows xp, which is "superior" to windows 98, won't run my copy of the Shadowman video game because they're not compatible.

Aric's first Good Skin, even if it could upgrade itself, wouldn't always be compatible with all technology, either tech that came before it or tech that comes later (like whatever might be invented before 2064 when Aric sends it into space).

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Post by Zaphod »

Well we are talking about alien technology so simply stating that it must become outdated at some point is a limitation of human thinking. Nothing indicates either way that the XO armors do not continually evolve and adapt or that it stagnates and becomes obsolete.

As for the armor taking on the characteristics of the host, I didn't read XO from start to end so I can't be certain but more importantly when Randy takes over the armor it twists into something much uglier than when Aric wore it -- leading me to think that the controller of the ring has much more influence over the sacrificed er...gestation host? (I need a better term)

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

MProyas wrote:Well we are talking about alien technology so simply stating that it must become outdated at some point is a limitation of human thinking. Nothing indicates either way that the XO armors do not continually evolve and adapt or that it stagnates and becomes obsolete.
Well, that's not exactly true.

We know that Spider-Alien technology can't upgrade itself. An X-O Commando armor in 1991 was no different from an X-O Commando armor in 4001 or even 4020.

Their ships were the same in both eras as well, meaning that their technology reached a certain point and stayed there, as well as meaning that in the 2000 years between eras the technology never changed.

Furthermore, the tech seen in 408, when Aric was kidnapped, was also indistinguishable from the tech seen in 1991 and 4001.

This is probably due to the realities of space travel and relativity.

A state of the art Spider-Alien ship leaves the Spider-Alien homeworld for Earth. For them the trip takes five years, but on Earth thousands of years go by.

They then return to their homeworld on another trip that takes five years for them. By the time they return home after being away for 10 years 2000 have passed there, by which time their 10-year-old state of the art warship is in reality 2000 years out of date.
As for the armor taking on the characteristics of the host, I didn't read XO from start to end so I can't be certain but more importantly when Randy takes over the armor it twists into something much uglier than when Aric wore it -- leading me to think that the controller of the ring has much more influence over the sacrificed er...gestation host? (I need a better term)
I think it's both. The host body affects the initial form and characteristics of the armor, while the control ring links the armor with the wearer's psyche.

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Post by Fanboy375 »

Just as long as they dont take the Venom, Carnage, Toxin (whenever the universe restarts) route I am cool. They start using dumb ideas from Marvel like that and I am out completely.

Jonathan

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Post by IanAlexavier »

Maybe they should have started with the armor being much smaller.. and then as it acquired hosts it would grown and eventually cover the bearers entire body.

Aric could have used it in a way to kill aliens and then take in their info and essence. I could have then taken Pauls as well, he would have become part of the armor. This would not negate the idea of a seed every 2000 years either.

Just thinking out loud here..

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Post by ManofTheAtom »

But wouldn't that make the Good Skin more like a symbiote that absorbs its host's essence?


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