CGC vs PGA vs 3PG

tssgery · Post by **tssgery** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:40 pm

I know that CGC is the "standard", and books graded by them usually sell for more money even though PGA has proven to be tougher at grading. 3PG is much cheaper but not very well respected.

I'm thinking about sending in a number of my books to be graded, mostly Silver Age but some Moderns as well. I'm not looking to selll them, just to have them professionally graded.

I'm fairly certain that I'm not going to use 3PG, but am torn between CGC and PGA. PGA is cheaper and has a much faster turnaround, but CGC is the more accepted option...

Opinions?

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:52 pm

Thanks for bringing this topic up, I've been wondering about it too.

tssgery · Post by **tssgery** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:57 pm

I'm here to please!

Brother J · Post by **Brother J** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:57 pm

PGA is cheaper and has a much faster turnaround, but CGC is the more accepted option...

Silver age books that you would like graded correctly (including resto check) and you're not selling them....I think you should go with CGC in that case. Even though CGC's turnaround times are bad, you shouldn't be in that big of a hurry to get them back if you're not selling them any time soon. I think in your case it would make more sense to spend the extra time and money to make sure everything is done right.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:14 pm

Lord, I grow weary

Guys, seriously..do your due diligence, research CGG/PGA/soon to be PGX<-not a joke

) information. There is real bothersome FACTS regarding danny boy and folks.

CGG will be gone within 2 yrs..and yes, i'll take bets...put your money where there is a future

tssgery · Post by **tssgery** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:40 pm

To risk further humiliation... I had heard rumors about PGA becoming PGX but could find nothing that said why not do I know what problems Danny is having...

Can you enlighten me or give me a little hint as to where I can go find the information myself?

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:47 pm

I havent bought into cgc 100% yet and think that cgg would be fine for modern books. I really dont think that I would send any nice SA books to them. I think that the resto check is more than worth the price and time with cgc....of course if you have owned the books since you took them off the shelf then you might not need resto check...then cgg might not be a bad option....However you didnt pick them off the rack yourself then I would go with cgc...

Thecomicguys · Post by **Thecomicguys** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:36 pm

DawgPhan wrote:I havent bought into cgc 100% yet and think that cgg would be fine for modern books. I really dont think that I would send any nice SA books to them. I think that the resto check is more than worth the price and time with cgc....of course if you have owned the books since you took them off the shelf then you might not need resto check...then cgg might not be a bad option....However you didnt pick them off the rack yourself then I would go with cgc...

Here is a post I put up on the CPG boards.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by thecomicguy2

You can be assured that the book in the holder will match the grade on the label and will arrive without SCS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whether or not it will arrive with the restoration detected on restored books is another story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been two books that we missed restoration on, one was a book with replaced staples that we could not determine 100% replaced staples and instead of the book being returned unencapsulated it unfortunately was sent through.

There are two or three other books that may have had restoration missed on them, but I only believe there is one other. And we have proved that one book that was graded by us & then came back from CGC as restored with color touch had no color touch at all on the book.

There have been NO books brought forward with supposed missed restoration since we hired our new restoration professional over seven months ago.

Why you continue to harp on this subject is confusing as there is little, or no truth to your statements.

Has there ever been any books brought up that we have overgraded or books that have been damaged during shipping? Yet you never brings things up repeatedly. Is it because these things are brought up only with CGC books and not PGA books?

Why this vendetta against our company?

We have graded over 14,000 books and almost exclusively the only complaint brought up is that some people feel we undergrade some books.

Any book that looks undergraded, if we sat down with the owner of the book and went over it with them out of the holder, 99 out of 100 times the person will agree with our grade after we go over the book with them. (I am not being arrogant, I just know our grading is accurate)

And the overwhelming standard from most of our customers is that we are very consistent in our grading.

So what's left, if there is no problem with our restoration skills? Okay, I know what you will say, the PVC issue.

Though the material we use is 100% safe, there will always be those who can't feel comfortable about it. So we are changing the material we use because we want everyone to feel good about the materials we use. We will soon be using Barex for our inner holder.

Anything else? Info on us, right? You don't have the name & number of everyone we have worked with or worked for.

You do make something of a point here. We will look into getting more detailed bios up in the near future, but the accurate, consistent grading of 14,000 books should be much better of a resume than who I worked with 15 years ago, don't ya agree?

The mistakes we have made have been with the website & marketing the company, and we are trying to correct those errors. We should have a fully funtional website up with 2 weeks.

The only areas where I see CGC having an advantage over us is they were 1st, therefore they have the majority of the big dealers using them, a $1,000,000 for advertizing a year, and their graders are more well-known.

Are these the things that matter?

Even after book after book is brought up being undergraded or overgraded, are people still going to line up for the privilege of paying twice as much, waiting 3 or 4 times as long, in order to have to opportunity to have to worry whether the book will be damaged during shipping, or the case cracked? None of these things are a concern with our company.

This may sound a little biased, but I am trying to make a point about what should be important to people that have their books graded.

Even though on average CGC books may sell for a little more, when you take into account cost, and turnaround times things even up.

This coming year we are going to concentrate on educating people about the advantages of our service.

For anyone that read this entire post, thank you.

Daniel (PGA)

Thecomicguys · Post by **Thecomicguys** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:38 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Lord, I grow weary

Guys, seriously..do your due diligence, research CGG/PGA/soon to be PGX<-not a joke ) information. There is real bothersome FACTS regarding danny boy and folks.

CGG will be gone within 2 yrs..and yes, i'll take bets...put your money where there is a future

This explains why we have considered the name change. I am curious as to what real bothersome FACTS you are speaking of.

Choosing to go with PGA may have been a rash decision as you are right about searching for PGA books on ebay.

If you go into the comics category 1st you will not have that problem though.

We have discussed a quick change to the name accompanying with several other changes, but are hesitant to add possible confusion for buyers.

One option: Keep PGA and go on a campaign to educate people on how to best find PGA graded books on ebay, along with other changes.

2nd option: Make a small change to the name, say from PGA to PGX, making it very easy to find the books on ebay, and at the same time switch to using Barex, along with the other changes, possible label change, we will be using a new packaging system, new website, and any other positive changes we could add. We could then concentrate on getting the changes out there and really promoting the company, having gotten rid of any problems, like trying to find PGA books on ebay.

Any feedback will be appreciated here. It a tough choice as changing the name has drawbacks, including financial ones, but we are trying to think about what will be best long-term, rather than short term.

Although I do point out problems with CGC, and don't like their aggressive scare tactics, and some of their money oriented business tactics, I do feel they are a good company at heart, and do have respect for their graders, they have a tough job grading all those books every day.

tssgery · Post by **tssgery** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:51 pm

Daniel,

Thanks for your replies and the explanation of the name change. I hadn't even thought that 'PGA' probably brings up a few extra items during a search...

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:58 pm

Thecomicguys wrote:
The only areas where I see CGC having an advantage over us is they were 1st, therefore they have the majority of the big dealers using them, a $1,000,000 for advertizing a year, and their graders are more well-known.

Are these the things that matter?

Yes. As much as you may not like to hear this, it does. It's simply understanding human nature.

You have made some SPECTACULAR missteps, mostly with the restoration issue, which has resulted in a 'rep' (no matter HOW deserved or not) with your company.

If you are to succeed, you must must must get your face(s) out there, and stop being sarcastic about 'who you worked for 15 years ago.'

You must be 100%, not 99.2, not 97.1, 100%

Remember...PCGS started in 1985. NGC started in 1986. They are, without doubt, the two 'respected' names in Coin Grading, and everyone else is a disssssstant third, no matter HOW good they are, no matter HOW accurate they are, and it's been almost 20 years!

The name changes will ALSO hurt you dramatically. You need to decide WHO you are and stick with it.

As I said before, you MUST get your FACE out there, and not rely on posts on a message board to get your company message across. You have to be at EVERY convention, meeting as MANY people you can, and answering ANY and EVERY question anyone has (no matter how silly/stupid/repetitive YOU think they are...not everyone has heard what you have) and not make ANY more missteps.

If you want to succeed, this is what you MUST do.

Good luck. We NEED a valid competitor to CGC; that's just basic Econ.

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:18 pm

Thecomicguys wrote:
Peter Parker wrote:Lord, I grow weary

Guys, seriously..do your due diligence, research CGG/PGA/soon to be PGX<-not a joke ) information. There is real bothersome FACTS regarding danny boy and folks.

CGG will be gone within 2 yrs..and yes, i'll take bets...put your money where there is a future
This explains why we have considered the name change. I am curious as to what real bothersome FACTS you are speaking of.

Choosing to go with PGA may have been a rash decision as you are right about searching for PGA books on ebay.

If you go into the comics category 1st you will not have that problem though.

We have discussed a quick change to the name accompanying with several other changes, but are hesitant to add possible confusion for buyers.

One option: Keep PGA and go on a campaign to educate people on how to best find PGA graded books on ebay, along with other changes.

2nd option: Make a small change to the name, say from PGA to PGX, making it very easy to find the books on ebay, and at the same time switch to using Barex, along with the other changes, possible label change, we will be using a new packaging system, new website, and any other positive changes we could add. We could then concentrate on getting the changes out there and really promoting the company, having gotten rid of any problems, like trying to find PGA books on ebay.

Any feedback will be appreciated here. It a tough choice as changing the name has drawbacks, including financial ones, but we are trying to think about what will be best long-term, rather than short term.

Although I do point out problems with CGC, and don't like their aggressive scare tactics, and some of their money oriented business tactics, I do feel they are a good company at heart, and do have respect for their graders, they have a tough job grading all those books every day.

Daniel,

First off, thank you for taking the time to post on these forums about your thoughts and opinions on the continual war involving cgc and pga. By posting here I can't help but feel that our small community is, by some way, just as important as the 5000 comic member forums!

ZephyrWasHOT!! has made a good post but I would like to add some thoughts and feedback on top of that without the usual ranting and raving that serves little purpose.

1) I don't like your graphical front of the graded books. It seems a little fugly to me. Nor do I care for your competitors front. Can someone come up with something that just makes me WANT to have it by pure design without regards to the content inside? That would go a long way.

2) Brainstorm on ways to make your product just as valuable in resales as cgc's are if not more. When it comes down to it, if pga graded books sale for equal or more on eBay as your competitor, then I'm heading to the cheaper and faster service.

3) Nothing wrong with a niche market like "New Comics". Really focus people on why we should send their new comics to PGA instead of the competition. I think most collectors agree that if you want to get a new book graded, you go to PGA. You just need to take that feeling and bring it home.

4) A website that has a blog or forum for collectors to post on. Make sure that every rumor started about your product is deputed or corrected and found within two clicks starting from your homepage. The rumors are what kill. This is a cost effective way to slap them down in a timely manner for mere pennies.

5) Doing feel good acts within the collector's community. Like donate 1,000 used unwanted books to Comics4Kids or other charities. I believe most of the collectors have a soft spot and this will help your company look awesome.

I got more ideas if you wanna shoot me a pm! I think you can tell that I've actually put some thought into this. (Excuse any spelling or grammatical errors. It's late and I have no spell checker on this computer. Bleh)

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:23 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Lord, I grow weary

Guys, seriously..do your due diligence, research CGG/PGA/soon to be PGX<-not a joke ) information. There is real bothersome FACTS regarding danny boy and folks.

CGG will be gone within 2 yrs..and yes, i'll take bets...put your money where there is a future

So they are needing to change their name once again. Not a good thing if you want to build confidence in you product.

ryostar · Post by **ryostar** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:32 pm

BLa,bla,bla.... Go post on the cgc boards with your condescending crap.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:02 am

ryostar wrote:BLa,bla,bla.... Go post on the cgc boards with your condescending crap.

Ryostar? Are you Danny?

Can you say...conflict of interest?

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:46 am

ryostar wrote:BLa,bla,bla.... Go post on the cgc boards with your condescending crap.

Who are you refering to with your post??

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:50 am

PGA GUY...

One simple question?

Remember that Avengers#4 CGC PURPLE label 7.5? about a year or more back? That was bought by "TDComix" on Ebay (a member that happens to live in YOUR TOWN)

Then, amazingly, found itself back on Ebay a month later as a CGG BLUE world grade of VF/NM9.0???

Do you remember this?, I do...just curious...smells rancid in my opinion

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:23 am

Oh, and by the way...

I'd listen and read what Zeph wrote a few posts earlier, its dead on regarding your problems.

You posting on these boards makes little, to no difference with most collectors (its changed MY mind not a smiggin')

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:53 am

Is there that much difference between these 2 grading companies? Is a 9.2 at one gonna grade 9. + or - .2 at the other? I hadn't heard about that restored Avengers #4 7.5 that showed up with a blue-label 9.0; but if that happened, then I'm not sure exactly how to take that. The inference that one company is grading high to sell something is extremely disturbing, given that we've all had run-in's with dealers that will grade a book VG+ when they buy it, then VF+ when they sell it. This subjectivity and self-interest has plagued this industry since it's inception, (the appearance of grading guidelines in Overstreet, etc. helped) and the idea that an unbiased 3rd party would be able to determine a rank vs. similar copies of a comic and encapsulate it to prevent any further deterioration was one I supported.

I still have some doubts about any "objective" grading -- I'd like to know what the grader collects and what he has (who wants to grade a comic higher than your copy) and does the volume of comics graded by company or individual "X" cause any favor in grading towards that client by the grader (how much does money factor into the grade).

My only real experience has been with CGC thus far, and I have to say, I've agreed with the assigned grade in every case but one, and they took the time to go over that particular one with me and there were defects I didn't see. The grade is correct and I feel good about sending my comics to Florida for a vacation, at this point.

I've seen the PGA site and heard some of the innuendo surrounding the company, and would not feel good sending them my comics at this time. No offense to PGA, but it's your job to change my mind.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:00 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
Thecomicguys wrote:
The only areas where I see CGC having an advantage over us is they were 1st, therefore they have the majority of the big dealers using them, a $1,000,000 for advertizing a year, and their graders are more well-known.

Are these the things that matter?
Yes. As much as you may not like to hear this, it does. It's simply understanding human nature.

You have made some SPECTACULAR missteps, mostly with the restoration issue, which has resulted in a 'rep' (no matter HOW deserved or not) with your company.

If you are to succeed, you must must must get your face(s) out there, and stop being sarcastic about 'who you worked for 15 years ago.'

You must be 100%, not 99.2, not 97.1, 100%

Remember...PCGS started in 1985. NGC started in 1986. They are, without doubt, the two 'respected' names in Coin Grading, and everyone else is a disssssstant third, no matter HOW good they are, no matter HOW accurate they are, and it's been almost 20 years!

The name changes will ALSO hurt you dramatically. You need to decide WHO you are and stick with it.

As I said before, you MUST get your FACE out there, and not rely on posts on a message board to get your company message across. You have to be at EVERY convention, meeting as MANY people you can, and answering ANY and EVERY question anyone has (no matter how silly/stupid/repetitive YOU think they are...not everyone has heard what you have) and not make ANY more missteps.

If you want to succeed, this is what you MUST do.

Good luck. We NEED a valid competitor to CGC; that's just basic Econ.

I agree wholeheartedly with Zeph. I really want you guys to succed. Good Luck! ~Erskine

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:01 am

Simply put...
I've yet to hear from a CGG/PGA supporter who doesn't live in Oregon.

At this point, it's like trying to learn about a particular sports team by
only listening to the locals. Sure... they believe they have a great team,
but what does the rest of the country think?

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:31 am

greg wrote:Simply put...
I've yet to hear from a CGG/PGA supporter who doesn't live in Oregon.

At this point, it's like trying to learn about a particular sports team by
only listening to the locals. Sure... they believe they have a great team,
but what does the rest of the country think?

there dealings with tdcomixncardz has REALLY KILLED THEM! They cant continue to do business with people like that and expect to gain support.

One the avengers purple label book. I am sure that there have been cgc books that had restoration and where not caught and the example that always comes to mind with me is the DareDevil book that was missing pages and still got a universal label. Both companies make mistakes the real difference is how the company handles it. I believe that cgc goes outta there way to make sure that the person with the wrongly graded book is happy and cgg/pga/whatever tries to explain how it isnt their fault. We really need cgg to succeed if graded books is going to be healthly for the industry...we cant just have 1 company grading books. Also has anyone heard the rumors about cgc starting a pressing company? Seems like they might be pushing it with that.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:37 am

DawgPhan wrote:dealings with tdcomixncardz has REALLY KILLED THEM! They cant continue to do business with people like that and expect to gain support.

Can someone fill me in on what happened here?

BTW, what's a "pressing" company?

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:01 am

Dawg...

I've personally spoken to Steve Borock regarding the "pressing" issues

I also gave him my thoughts, DO NOT GO THERE!...it would be a TREMENDOUS negative towards CGC credibility...and most know i'm a major CGC supporter

He has also heard from far bigger collectors than myself advising them of the same. I believe in the end, logical heads will prevail

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:08 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:dealings with tdcomixncardz has REALLY KILLED THEM! They cant continue to do business with people like that and expect to gain support.
Can someone fill me in on what happened here?

BTW, what's a "pressing" company?

It is MY belief that tdcomixncardz/ryostar/christinecollectibles/whatever are all the same person and have been involved in some dubious dealings with cgg/pga/whatever books. Both the tdcomixncardz and cgg are located in OR. There have been several threads on this board about ryostar and many, many threads on the cgc board about tdcomix. Doa search for ryostar and look at his posting history.

A comic book can be "pressed" using heat or moisture and lots of pressure to remove certain imprefections within the book. Spine curl, wrinkles, and non color breaking creases are the types of things that can be removed with pressing. Most restoration experts will tell you that, done properly, pressing cant be detected accurately. When looking at the prices differences between a 9.4-9.6-9.8 you can see why this might be a concern for people. The rumor is that someone from cgc(ex grader) is going to starting a pressing company what would be slightly connected with cgc.

There is a second type of pressing where the comic book is disasembled and then pressed this type of pressing can be detected. But mainly it is detected the same ways that they detect replaced staples or a different cover it is not the pressing that is detected, but the signs of taking the book apart.

Again could you imagine if you took your book to a pressing company that was loosedly connected with the grading company that there might be a slight conflict on interest?

I dont think that cgc is as clean and pure as some people want them to be, but I think that they have less dirt on them than cgg does...