VIP ASHCAN AT SDCC! Prepare to be SHOCKED.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:31 pm

I was going to quote the stuff but this thread has become too long and complicated, so I'll just I agree with all that intelligent, thoughtful stuff Magnusr posted about Joe and the community (on page 11, I think) and congratulations to MOTA for getting the thread back on topic

schi0249 · Post by **schi0249** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:33 pm

A judge looks at everything, from the ad to the ashcan and everything between. Both those items show an intent to use the trademarks. Something just clicked. Does everyone remember the legal speak at the bottom of the Harbinger HC ad? They list the following as trademarks: Harbinger, Rai, Doctor Mirage, Quantum & Woody, Ninjak, and Eternal Warrior. They list X-O, Bloodshot, and Shadowman as creations they own the copyright to. Look at what the ashcan has: Bloodshot, Rai and the Future Force, Eternal Warrior, Doctor Mirage, Harbinger, and Ninjak.

For the most part, the ashcan is VIP's attempt to reassert their claim to the trademarks that VEI printed and claimed as their own. What this case will really come down to, is whether or not VIP applied for the trademarks while fully knowing they belonged to someone else. Also of importance, is whether or not VIP legitimately intends to use the trademarks. Anyone can claim they are going to make a comic, but is VIP situating themselves to. I'm assuming starting a comic book company is like any other company. There is tons of work that goes into it long before your first book comes out.

thePike · Post by **thePike** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:37 pm

Also, where is VEI's e-bay store? I didn't know they had one...

(link please)

Zero · Post by **Zero** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:45 pm

thePike wrote:Also, where is VEI's e-bay store? I didn't know they had one...

(link please)

http://stores.ebay.com/Valiant-Entertainment

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:46 pm

Nevermind...

-slym

Zero · Post by **Zero** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:57 pm

thePike wrote:I'm a cop, so I've got a little perspective on the court thing, but copyright/trademark/intellectual property rights law is all new territory to me. I'm not disputing the fact, but simply showing doubt, that someone would be required to sell something in order for these types of rules to go into affect. I thought just having the rights, allowed you to own these characters just like Random House owns Turok, Magnus and Solar, even if no one is making thing thats using these characters (please some one chime in if they can clarify this more).

The court preceedings would most likely go before a judge only (one that would be very well versed in the laws applicable to the case more than likely) rather than a jury. That also being said, intent to publish, and having something published do carry different weights in a court of law (how much depends on the variables in the above paragraph). I would believe, that VEI - having more stuff announced (advertisements, panels at cons', a website, an e-bay store, release dates on books, and the original character rights) would have more weight than a simple black & white, printed up on typing paper "ash can"; but then again, this could be my own personal preference (and ignorance of these specific laws) coming through...

There are 2 issues at hand; the trademarks & the copyrights. To us, these should go together, but legally they are separate.

For Harbinger, for instance, the trademark is simply the name "Harbinger". The copyright iincludes all the Harbinger stories Valiant ever told as well as, I believe, the physical appearance of the characters in that title.

The copyrights were purchased at auction by VEI. They own, outright, all the Valiant stories that were told.

The trademarks expire over time if they aren't used. Acclaim had let many of the TMs expire during the period after they stopped producing comics & before they went bankrupt. VIP applied for many of those TMs. VEI also applied for all the TMs. The courts are now trying to determine who has the better claim to the TMs. My feelings, along with most on this site, are that VEI has the stronger claim to them.

Even if VEI loses the TM cases they still will be able to produce Valiant comics with Valiant concepts. They could have an Eternal Warrior comic, for instance, that has all of the continuity of the original series. He would look, act, & interact just like the Eternal Warrior we all know. They simply would not be able to call the book "Eternal Warrior". They could call it "Fist & Steel" or any other name they decided on, just not "Eternal Warrior".

This fight is about nothing more than labels. VEI has all the content without anyone having a say. VIP cannot have any Valiant concepts in their comics. This is all about who gets to name their characters what. Hope this clears a few things up. Please feel free to correct me if I've muffed anything here.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:07 pm

Zero wrote:This fight is about nothing more than labels. VEI has all the content without anyone having a say. VIP cannot have any Valiant concepts in their comics. This is all about who gets to name their characters what. Hope this clears a few things up. Please feel free to correct me if I've muffed anything here.

No need to correct you at all... you're right on the money.

VEI already has EVERY Valiant concept, character, image, story, etc.

The legal system is determining what labels will be used by VEI and VIP.

Whatever happens, VIP will NOT have any rights to any Valiant concept, character, image, or story.

VEI is VALIANT. Today.

Unless someone believes that a black-winged angel/demon named "Harbinger" is more Valiant
than every character, concept, story, and image produced between 1992-1996, then VEI is already Valiant.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:09 pm

greg wrote:Unless someone believes that a black-winged angel/demon named "Harbinger" is more Valiant
than every character, concept, story, and image produced between 1992-1996, then VEI is already Valiant.

Nope. That character skews more towards a world with a goat on a first name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes than a world outside your window where dead is dead.

Offer VIP a trade. They give VEI the tms and VEI gives them all the VH 2 crap.

Win-Win

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:13 pm

Regarding Joe's criticism of VEI's attempt to relaunch Valiant.

IMO, the reprinting on Harbinger *isn't* a relaunch of Valiant. We don't yet know how they are going to relaunch the comic books. What the Harbinger trade does is get Valiant's name back out there, get's people excited about the Valiant comics again, and potentially helps them in any legal battle.

In terms of relaunching the universe - I don't think it addresses the issue at all. They may still choose to do something akin to what you posted as an art page. They may choose to just start from scratch. They may choose to restart after Unity. Who knows, they haven't said.

It may turn out that their relaunch sucks, and that regretably Valiant is dead as ever. But as Greg points out, VIP can't do a relaunch of the Valiant universe because they don't own the concepts - they just own the labels. So as Greg says, VEI is the best choice of the two.

Does it mean that VEI will automatically do good? No, not at all. But seeing as they haven't done ANYTHING yet, and we have no real idea what they are going to try to do, shouldn't we at least be patient, while possibly giving them the benefit of doubt?

Chris

thePike · Post by **thePike** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:32 pm

So I'm up to date with the information on VIP owns 'labels' only, and VEI owns everything else, but what about this concept that jmpet introduced that the first person to sell the item is the true legal guardian of said label?

That sounds really fuzzy to me... (once again, just how it sounds, I don't know, thats why I'm inquiring)

Also, when it comes to Trademark applications, is it a first-come-first-serve type of deal? is it a deadline where everyone has to have applications submitted by a certain date? or is it some other procedure?

If someone knows (or has a link to this procedure) then that would allow us to more accurately speculate what is going on/how long it takes/who is more likely to be the winner...

superman-prime · Post by **superman-prime** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:13 pm

thanks for all the info Greg its got a little confusing for those of us that are new to this mess (go VE 1)

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:44 pm

From what I understand, you can't "own" a trademark, you can only have it registered to you. Filing for it just shows that you intend to use it.

I think there is some kind of rule about it that you have to be using it in order to get it registered to you.

It gets unclear, and I'm no lawyer.

oldjello · Post by **oldjello** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:52 pm

betterthanezra wrote:Here is the Visitor in the VIP crapverse...

-Brian

...didn't know he was into the Vancouver Canucks.

oldjello · Post by **oldjello** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:53 pm

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:54 pm

Todd Luck wrote:I was going to quote the stuff but this thread has become too long and complicated, so I'll just I agree with all that intelligent, thoughtful stuff Magnusr posted about Joe and the community (on page 11, I think) and congratulations to MOTA for getting the thread back on topic

Thank you for your post! It was a time saver for me. I was trying to make my way through it from beginning to end, but there was so much "filler" i had to stop. My only regret are the genuine, heartfelt, intelligent posts I must have missed. (At least I read the Magnusr posts -- which were on page 11)

oldjello · Post by **oldjello** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:55 pm

Tim Petty wrote:

LOL

Zool · Post by **Zool** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:09 pm

Thanks to the contributers here for clearing up some of the legal nonsense, I've seen many posts on the subject before but it's funny how a little bit of cheaply published 'concept art' focussed me to finally get my head around it.

So, the SDCC Ashcan is what it looks like, a crude (and crudely produced) legal macguffin to try and raise the value of a TM regestration. Nothing to do with making comics, but an attempt to make money.

I'd love to know who the artist is, not because I think he's particularly good (the drawing is ok, but the concepts are really weak), it's just 'in my head' he's some kid who wants to break into comics and was paid peanuts (if aything) to produce some 'Valiant concept art' for 'VIP' to be shown at SDCC. Only to discover his work is uncreditted and soundly derided.

And with that last paragraph I've put more thought into 'the story' behind those images than VIP has.

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:16 pm

Zool wrote:Thanks to the contributers here for clearing up some of the legal nonsense, I've seen many posts on the subject before but it's funny how a little bit of cheaply published 'concept art' focussed me to finally get my head around it.

So, the SDCC Ashcan is what it looks like, a crude (and crudely produced) legal macguffin to try and raise the value of a TM regestration. Nothing to do with making comics, but an attempt to make money.

I'd love to know who the artist is, not because I think he's particularly good (the drawing is ok, but the concepts are really weak), it's just 'in my head' he's some kid who wants to break into comics and was paid peanuts (if aything) to produce some 'Valiant concept art' for 'VIP' to be shown at SDCC. Only to discover his work is uncreditted and soundly derided.

And with that last paragraph I've put more thought into 'the story' behind those images than VIP has.

I agree.

Actually, I think whoever the artist is didn't necessarily do a bad job. What is crude is the overall feel of the product and the apparently crude motives behind the product. Whoever labelled it Sneak "Peak" should be embarassed along with whoever decided to put this out as is.

From appearances so far, VIP has nothing to do with Valiant comics as we know them, and their only relevance here is that we may have the added inconvenience of looking for our old favorites with different title names because of them, and will have to wait longer to see them arrive.

Second_Death · Post by **Second_Death** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:44 pm

Todd Luck wrote:I was going to quote the stuff but this thread has become too long and complicated, so I'll just I agree with all that intelligent, thoughtful stuff Magnusr posted about Joe and the community (on page 11, I think) and congratulations to MOTA for getting the thread back on topic

Assuming it is ok with Joe that a member may agree with comments by another member in order to save time and show the proper respest for those original statements, then I would just like to say

.

schi0249 · Post by **schi0249** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:02 pm

http://www.uspto.gov/main/policy.htm This link contains lots of the US info on trademarks. Basically, you apply for it. If it is not used for 3 years, it is considered dead. Also, if you allow it to enter the general public, you can also loose it. Example, Xerox has fought hard to separate the name from the process of photocopying. There was a time were people began refereeing to the process as xeroxing. To protect their trademark, they tried to change that perception. Also, in some instances, the US courts have sided that a company, not in operations and going through bankruptcy has goodwill about the future use of their established trademarks. That is probably the avenue VEI will argue for any trademarks that expired around the time of Acclaims bankruptcy proceedings. However, any that expired long before could be a little trickier to secure.

Second_Death · Post by **Second_Death** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:03 pm

betterthanezra wrote:
Zero wrote:
Second_Death wrote:Has it been confirmed that VIP actually sold any of these? I have a hard time believing anyone would part with $5 for one of these much less $40.
.
A copy was purchased for the sake of bringing the scans here.
Before I found this at SDCC only ONE other one was sold....to Who? I have NO idea. I called him and he instantly walked three blocks from his hotel to see this thing. I do know that the number of that particular ashcan was 51 of 100.

I took pictures of each page before Chip Carter found me at SDCC for it. Those pictures are the ones we see on this thread.

-Brian

Thanks for clarifying, bte.

rictor · Post by **rictor** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:05 pm

When I saw the title, I thought I missed a really cool promo, and was thinking to myself "Man I wish I had joined this board earlier so that I could have a shot at getting V.I.P. ashcans. Cause if the Zombie project was that cool, I can only imagine what coolness these guys did for an ashcan." So I clicked on the link preparing to be overcome with jealousy, and saw what VIP actually meant. And I realized I didn't miss anything.

betterthanezra · Post by **betterthanezra** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:32 pm

Someone asked me for VIP's image of Ninjak inside the book not just the cover so here you go...

-Brian

Zaphod · Post by **Zaphod** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:55 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
kyanther wrote:Ok, so there is a fight going on here. I knew that there were two companies, but I wasnt sure if some had some rights and the other etc. So is this something that is in court then? Someone really should just type up a news story to catch those of us that aren't "in the know" up to date completely.

GO VE!!! BURN VIP!!!!
Basically here is how it boils down. VEI went to the Acclaim sale and won the auction. VIP on the other hand did not attend or make any offers at the auction. Meanwhile the time for the "registering of the names" had elapsed since Acclaim was out of the comic book business for quite a few years at this point. VIP paid the registering fees for the names and are now trying to claim them as their own. All they will get are the names of the characters they registered if they win (which I doubt they will). They cannot use any likeness of the characters in any way because VEI owns the intellectual content. So all in all it's pretty lame to go to all this trouble just to "steal" some names from the rightful owners. Nice way to win over the audience you intend to sell books to, huh?

I don't believe there is an intent on VIPs part to produce jack squat. This is the equivalent of a cyber squatter, registering a domain name and hoping that the owners of the intellectual product....rather than spend the countless years in court bickering over the trademarks will just settle out of court for them.

VIP has to maintain the illusion that they have intent to publish using the names to keep the name viable (exactly why Acclaim lost the claim in the first place)

Kinda why for years Marvel would continue to put out Captain Marvel comics and one shots when, in fact, those one shots tended to suck. Because DC owns the rights to Captain Marvel but not the trademarks and thus we have "Shazam"!

Zaphod · Post by **Zaphod** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:55 pm