Solar Valiant fans project

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

WOW,... is this junk still going on!!!??? What about live and let live?

What, you think the passing of TIME makes this any less of a wrong thing to do?

It doesn't.

"Live and let live" only works when everyone abides by the standards the community has set up. When those standards are broken, live and let live doesn't apply.

I must disagree.

"Live and Let Live" only applies as long as you don't hurt anyone. Cheating your friends is included in "hurt anyone".

"Not hurting someone" would fall under the "standards the community has set up"...come on, you're not THAT far from your High School Civics class.

For the record...having sex with a dead animal isn't "hurting anyone".....but it's still outside the standards the community has set up, and therefore wrong. One shouldn't "live and let live" a necrophiliac bestialist.....

[Valiant OCD]

When EVERYONE complies to the standards set forth by the whole, people like galileo get murdered. Slavery goes unchallenged, and children in india are forced to work in sweatshops for untold hours a day.

Zeph, you say "it's not abut what you think is right, its about what is right" but i contend that that is based on what you consider to be right for the group, not what may be actually right. Part of the fun of this hobby is watching your little investment grow in value on occasion. I don't aggree that someone should be berated for trying to turn a profit when he or she want to do so.

So, since I am arguably part of the community you refer to, why does my opinion not seem to matter in your version of right and wrong? because, you are in the percieved majority? If so then we'd better take a mandatory poll of ALL the members and get the definitive answer on this matter. Would'nt it be shocking if you were in the minority? Would you be wrong then? Or would it just be your right to have a different opinion? At which point I would be more than happy to say "Live and let live"

Or does my opinion not count because, it does not match what you've decided on as right?........ As i see it, it must be one or the other. Both foundations are flawed as soon as you look past your own set of beliefs, and your ego,.... Not just for you, but for me, you and anyone who lives with other people.

When one group regardless of majority or minority status tries to push thier own values off onto other people you get the crusades, or the jihad, or the gulf war, and countless other real problems. Wouldn't it just be easier to register your disapproval and let it go?

My Rare 2 cents.

[mavros]

I'm still trying to figure out why someone would post on a Sunday that his proxy has won the book, thereby possibly jeopardizing the deal.

Wait till Whet actually has the book in his hands... or at the very least wait till there is confirmation the book has been shipped before divulging that the proxy has won the book... if that's actually the case.

[Valiant OCD]

WOW,... is this junk still going on!!!??? What about live and let live?

What, you think the passing of TIME makes this any less of a wrong thing to do?

It doesn't.

"Live and let live" only works when everyone abides by the standards the community has set up. When those standards are broken, live and let live doesn't apply.

I must disagree.

"Live and Let Live" only applies as long as you don't hurt anyone. Cheating your friends is included in "hurt anyone".

"Not hurting someone" would fall under the "standards the community has set up"...come on, you're not THAT far from your High School Civics class.

For the record...having sex with a dead animal isn't "hurting anyone".....but it's still outside the standards the community has set up, and therefore wrong. One shouldn't "live and let live" a necrophiliac bestialist.....

Who is SOTU hurting? Justin? He is the creator of this project, and last time I checked he was not a friend. Seems to me the only thing being hurt is a the feelings of a few members. I was here when J produced this book, and there was no mention of a "no re-selling" clause. So based on the history no one on the creation level is being hurt. What about the buyer? Well, again it seems to me if a person willingly gives up his or her hard earned greenbacks, there is no hurting going on, so again, its just a few delicate sensibilities being bruised by my way of seeing it. Of course you have the right to voice your opinion, but the repeated bashing and thread derailing, and ganging up upon, and the outright attempt to ruin another members chances of selling an item at a profit borders on harrasment. Didn't Greg once have a rule about that sort of thing?

[depluto]

So you're saying Akuma Matata?

[Valiant OCD]

So you're saying Akuma Matata?

exactly!!! thanks for paraphrasing!!!!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

When EVERYONE complies to the standards set forth by the whole, people like galileo get murdered. Slavery goes unchallenged, and children in india are forced to work in sweatshops for untold hours a day.

Oh Lord.

This is simply not true. It's just not true. It's certainly not relevant to this situation. It's irrelevant to the point of absudity to even bring these things up. Why? Because those things aren't happening HERE. They are not relevant HERE. They have nothing to do with THIS situation in THIS community.

Galileo was not MURDERED at ALL. Galileo died of natural causes, AT HOME.

Dude, if you're going to come up with stuff as a response, you might want to check your history.

Oops.

"Slavery" isn't a "community standard" either. And not everyone on earth thinks slavery is a BAD thing. It's a bad thing to US because we've been conditioned pervasively throughout our entire culture that "slavery is bad, bad, bad!!!"

There are people, living breathing people, in this world who are slaves, and wouldn't change it for the world. Oh, and violent criminals? Should be forced to WORK to REPAY their debt to society. But that's slavery, isn't it?

How's THAT for mind blowing?

(For the record, I think slavery is a bad thing, in general, because it stunts creativity. And the opposite of war isn't peace...it's creation.)

No, your paragraph there is nothing but overemotional hyperbole designed to elicit an EMOTIONAL...not logical or rational....response.

Zeph, you say "it's not abut what you think is right, its about what is right" but i contend that that is based on what you consider to be right for the group, not what may be actually right.

No, it's about what is actually right. You can argue against this all day long, but no one except those who want to profit will agree with you, and they are agreeing for their own agendas.

Part of the fun of this hobby is watching your little investment grow in value on occasion.

99.9999999999999945% (I'm approximating, here ) of EVERY COMIC MADE is NOT a VCVSS. Sell THEM.

Hey...your wedding ring (let's assume you're married, and bought your rings before 2006) is worth more money NOW than it was when you bought it. So THAT little "investment" is growing in value, is it not?

Are these the same things as wedding rings? No. Not to that extent or level of commitment...but they ARE the same TYPES of things.

They are SYMBOLS of a group of people with common interests who got together and created something special out of that bond.

They are not "investments" any more than your wedding ring is.

I don't aggree that someone should be berated for trying to turn a profit when he or she want to do so.

That's because you just don't understand that no one is being berated for "trying to turn a profit"....

It's not about the money, OCD. It's about the THING BEING SOLD.

Didn't you sell YOUR VcVSS(s)?

So, since I am arguably part of the community you refer to, why does my opinion not seem to matter in your version of right and wrong?

Because you don't understand what the words "community standards" mean. Look them up, then let's continue this discussion.

because, you are in the percieved majority?

Like I said...look up what the words "community standards" mean, and then let's continue this discussion. They are not a direct derivation of what the "majority" wants or thinks, perceived or not, though they are influenced by same.

And these are not VALIANT FANS.COM community standards...these are community standards that have been around since Western Civilization was born. I didn't invent them....I just uphold them.

If so then we'd better take a mandatory poll of ALL the members and get the definitive answer on this matter. Would'nt it be shocking if you were in the minority?

OH MY GOD!!! IT SO TOTALLY WOULD......not.

It wouldn't surprise me in the LEAST if I was in the minority, because our culture has been sliding down the tubes. Right is wrong and wrong is right and moral relativism rules the day.

So no, it would not surprise me in the very least...it would SADDEN me, because I hold this community to higher PERSONAL standards, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Would you be wrong then? Or would it just be your right to have a different opinion?

If I was of the opinion that children as young as age 2 and 3 are sexual beings that adults can have sexual intercourse with whenever they want, would you support my right to "have a different opinion"?

And when would having that opinion NOT compel me to act upon it?

Because there are people walking around RIGHT NOW ADVOCATING...not just having that opinion in PRIVATE...but ADVOCATING it. OUT LOUD. IN PUBLIC.

But, hey, it's just "their opinion."

At what point does your moral relativism stop, OCD?

WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE, OCD?

Because if you draw the line ANYWHERE, you're a hypocrite and everything you've just typed is a farce. If you draw the line ANYWHERE, you CANNOT "berate" anyone for drawing the line as well.

I use an extreme example because it ILLUSTRATES just how far down the road moral relativism has taken us.

Eventually, nothing will be wrong, and we will dissolve into complete chaos and anarchy. Is that what you want? A world where someone can walk into your house, shoot your children and eat them, because it's "just their opinion"?

That's where this is leading....every little bit of moral relativism YOU ALLOW takes us THAT much further towards chaos.

"Oh, hey, it's not wrong for someone to profit off of someone else's work, when they weren't intended for that, no, not at all!"

Bit by bit by bit.

At which point I would be more than happy to say "Live and let live"

No, because you've completely misunderstood what the words "community standards" mean and how they apply. This isn't the VALIANTFANS.COM community standards we're discussing, here.

Or does my opinion not count because, it does not match what you've decided on as right?........ As i see it, it must be one or the other. Both foundations are flawed as soon as you look past your own set of beliefs, and your ego,.... Not just for you, but for me, you and anyone who lives with other people.

Sorry, buddy, but this has nothing to do with ego. Quite the opposite.

You can practice moral relativism all you want. The fact is....and this will never change....profiting off of something that was meant to symbolize a bond within a group of people is wrong. It will never be "not wrong", no matter how much you wish to say otherwise.

I think, in reality, you voice your "opinion" on this matter because my words (though they weren't pointed at you) condemn you for selling your VCVSS for profit, too. Right?

When one group regardless of majority or minority status tries to push thier own values off onto other people you get the crusades, or the jihad, or the gulf war,

Which gulf war?

And I'm sorry, but why are you pontificating about "pushing their own values"? Where is the "pushing" that's going on here? Where is my "special platform" that only I get to speak from, and to which none can respond?

You have just as much right AND ability as ANYONE ELSE to comment, however much, and however long you want to.

BY DEFINITION, I cannot be "pushing" ANYTHING, because YOU can "push" RIGHT BACK, with EQUAL ability.

The very fact that you can TYPE that response means that no one is PUSHING anything. You don't like what I have to say? Respond!

You CAN!

And so can I. Beautiful, huh?

[and countless other real problems. Wouldn't it just be easier to register your disapproval and let it go?

My Rare 2 cents.

Would it be easier?

Wasn't it easier just to ignore Adolph Hitler in the 1930's? YOU BET. And that's EXACTLY what they did.

You can see how well THAT turned out.

I use extreme examples because they illustrate the point so well. Is this a direct comparison to Hitler? Of course not, not to the same extent or effect. But is it of the same TYPE of moral relativism? Ayup.

Moral relativism must be fought at ANY point, no matter how "innocuous" is may seem.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I'm still trying to figure out why someone would post on a Sunday that his proxy has won the book, thereby possibly jeopardizing the deal.

Wait till Whet actually has the book in his hands... or at the very least wait till there is confirmation the book has been shipped before divulging that the proxy has won the book... if that's actually the case.

I certainly didn't reveal anything...Akuma himself stated the book was sold, and asserted that I had nothing to do with it.

I was responding to that.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Who is SOTU hurting? Justin? He is the creator of this project, and last time I checked he was not a friend.

Even though it was Chiclo who made the "not hurting" comment, since you're replying to my post, I'll reply.

SOTU is hurting the person he sells this to. He is hurting them financially. THEY may think so, they may be quite happy, but the reality is, the money's gone.

SOTU is also hurting the community by diminishing the meaning of these projects.

SOTU is hurting Justin after the fact by making money Justin COULD have made on the sale of these (yes, that is the weakest part of the argument by far, but it's still part.)

Seems to me the only thing being hurt is a the feelings of a few members.

Look, OCD, if you can't have a discussion without throwing these attempts to insult out, then what's the point? Why even bother?

No one's FEELINGS are being "hurt". Don't believe me? Answer this question, logically: how could Akuma selling HIS OWN book for a profit hurt the FEELINGS of other people? Akuma's not doing anything PERSONALLY to anyone (with regards to selling the book SPECIFICALLY, not his personal attacks against me, which don't hurt me in the slightest).....he's diminshing the GROUP, this COMMUNITY (and THIS is where I use the word "community" to actually refer to THIS group of people. Just though you might like that clarification. ), not anyone on a PERSONAL level.

Oy. Some people's children.

Show me where I replied with "Stop selling your book for profit, you big fat doody head, it hurts my feelings!!!" You must have missed the part where I explained that this didn't hurt ME, and it wasn't about ME.

Your comment is meant only to inflame.

WEAK. SAUCE.

I was here when J produced this book, and there was no mention of a "no re-selling" clause.

So, the only thing determining right and wrong is a clause?

You'd make a good lawyer!

So based on the history no one on the creation level is being hurt.

Justin loses out on the potential money he COULD have made with these.

That's "being hurt."

What about the buyer? Well, again it seems to me if a person willingly gives up his or her hard earned greenbacks, there is no hurting going on,

That's because you live in a world of moral relativism.

If someone SHOULD get something for $30 but it ends up costing them $160 or $200 or whatever....and they're HAPPY....has it STILL not cost them that money?

What, you think it doesn't matter if it's willingly given? That it's not a REAL cost?

so again, its just a few delicate sensibilities

Now you're just being rude and insulting. And it's not even ACCURATE rudeness and insulting. It would be ONE thing if you called me an arrogant blowhard, which I completely am, and did it in a funny manner.....but no one here is having "delicate sensibilities" trod on.

If you can't have a discussion without being rude and insulting, why bother?

being bruised by my way of seeing it. Of course you have the right to voice your opinion, but the repeated bashing and thread derailing,

1. I'm sorry, were you unaware of the bashing in RESPONSE? Bashing that was much WORSE? Oh yes, that's right, you AGREE with that bashing, so that makes it ok. I see. Moral relativism at its BEST!

2. Thread derailing is a fact of life on this board. Get over yourself.

and ganging up upon,

Aside from the issue of posts appearing in ORDER, and the function of the WRITTEN word and the inability to ACTUALLY gang up on someone, where were you when *I* was being "ganged up upon", on these boards? Hmmm...?

Where was your moral outrage THEN?

Oh yes, you AGREED with the gangers, and, in fact, you were ONE of them....so that makes it ok.

Moral relativism and hypocrisy rules the day yet again! YAY!

and the outright attempt to ruin another members chances of selling an item at a profit borders on harrasment.

Don't minimize what this is by calling it "an item.," These are NOT just "an item" any more than your wedding rings are just "an item."

(And since you're CLEARLY not aware of this, I'll explain something else to you: it's quite possible that the notoriety not only DIDN'T hurt Akuma's "chances for profit" but may in fact have actually helped him. Someone who FEELS like you do could come along and buy it just to spite ME, which is immature and ridiculous, but that's never stopped anyone before. He DEFINITELY got more attention about it than he would have. I'm CERTAINLY well aware of that, and I takes my chances. I know where I stand. Do you?)

Didn't Greg once have a rule about that sort of thing?

Now you're invoking GREG?

[X-O HoboJoe]

Ah, you all want VcVSS Lite anyway.

[Daniel Jackson]

Ah, you all want VcVSS Lite anyway.

I'm in.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Ah, you all want VcVSS Lite anyway.

I'll take 5, please. Make sure they're all MOTA-authorized.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Ah, you all want VcVSS Lite anyway.

I'll take 5, please. Make sure they're all MOTA-authorized.

Ah, ha-ha! Veddy phunny! Special remark, just for you!

[whetteon]

Wow.

What an interesting read.

I had no idea this was going on until a forum member started giving me cryptic pms. This is mind boggling.

Personally, I thought the time to fight for the VcVSS project was about 2 and a half years ago when people were busy making fake accounts and flipping books for profits. Once that fight was lost I've moved on and stopped participating in these type of threads.

As for the book itself, this is a sore topic I also left behind. I have no idea what the hell everyone is talking about or how that even erases Justin's debt. He owes me 1 Solar VcVSS book or my $25.

Anyways, I have nothing else to contribute to this thread.

[Valiant OCD]

Actually, no i did not sell my project books for profit. I still have a complete set of #26's. So there goes the moral high ground that makes my beliefs "moral relativism" and yours correct. (at least in that aspect.)

Galileo, was ridiculed and berated for stating what he thought.

Slavery is wrong in any form. Any attempt to say otherwise is just humans trying to make themselves feel better.

Children working for 16 hours a day is wrong in my opinion. It goes on in places because the culture has either called for it or condoned it.

My point was simple. Yourself and roughly 10 or so other members have taken up six pages of thread attacking a person for doing something he has every right to do legally and so on.. Based on your arguments, if the community makes a decision, no one should be allowed to think or act out of step for fear of the retribution. ( just because the retribution in this case amounts to nothing more than whining and auction tampering, by a select few does not change the fact that the mans day is being interrupted by a group of "community members.' (these actions are a lot closer to the Nazism you mention than are my peacfully stated feelings on the "live and let live" thng)

SOTU apparently does not aggree with your philosiphy and you go out of your way make his sale harder.

BTW if none of the things I mentioned have any place in this conversation, because "none of them are happening here" then where exactly does the child molestation reference fit in? Did you mention somthing absurdly unrelated in order to make a point? (wow,... wish I'd thought of that....)

Of course it is true that 99.9999999% of comic books are not VcVSS's (I'm approximating here....) However that does not give you the right to tell others how to feel abut them. Or what to do with them. It is your right to try, but intentionally interfereing with another members sale and trying to convince perspective buyers not to bid, would be a criminal act in lets say the world of Real Estate......... Haven't those rules been set in place by the community standards?

"And these are not VALIANT FANS.COM community standards...these are community standards that have been around since Western Civilization was born. I didn't invent them....I just uphold them. "

How come you don't uphold the community standard that says trying to rig the bidding on a board auction is wrong? Is that not one of the precious rules we've all agreed to observe? Oh I see if its a standard that conflicts with what is upsetting you it becomes optional...... OK fair enough. Live and let live........

As for drawing the line, It's simple. When someone who is defensless is being hurt and needs defending. that is where I draw the line. You know like child sweat shops, or an elderly man being ridiculed for voicing his opinions, or maybe even a group of innocent people (convicted criminals are by definition not innocent....) being forced to live and work someplace other than where they would like to be, by a larger group who consider themselves to be entitled to certain luxuries because God said so.... ect.
All of those scenarios have one thing in common. The ignorant singleing out the weaker innocent.......... BS by my way of thinking.

Akuma is by no means defensless, however there is a small group of members who consistantly gang up on him whenever he (or anyone) tries to sell his VcVss books. (Nit pick the verbage all you like. Not mad about the profiting? Ok then lets see,... is he within his right to sell the thing?..... Um yep. He sure is. Of couse he has to deal with your auction tampering and constant berating in order to accomplish this feat....)

I've been reading this board for a LONNG time. One things has always been the same. You seem to think that if you type more than your opponent, you win. The truth is that for all your fancy words, and intelligence (yes you are obviously intelligent) most of your posts go mostly unread mainly because by the time i get half way through one of them I can't remember what your are quoting about.......... I skip them as for the most part as they are always the same.
"Zeph picks each little phrase and sentence apart with some ridiculous literal comeback, and ends up with something along the lines of

"You just don't get do you?!!! I'm right, and you don't have the patience to post a valid response!!!!" Hah I win!!! Everyone LOOK!!! I've bored another one into giving up!!!!"

MaN that gets old. If you were really 100% correct, you would not need so many words and quotes and and distractions to make your point. You are indeed correct as often as anyone else is I guess, but I've NEVER seen you type somethng like

"Hey you know what I was wrong. I've had a change of heart and thanks for shedding some new light on the subject...."

So, which is it? are you blindly stubborn, or all you always absolutely correct? Either way you would come out looking petty and sad. I hope your dogs love you as much as you do!

Now, go ahead and tell us all how happy you are that I've resorted to name calling (which I haven't and would not) and how that is proof positive that you are winning once again. As it seems the winning is the most important thing................. Not communication just the winning....... Geez, I've been back for three whole posts and I'm tired already!!!!!

[Valiant OCD]

SOTU is hurting the person he sells this to. He is hurting them financially. THEY may think so, they may be quite happy, but the reality is, the money's gone. :

I'm sure the buyer appreciates you protecting from himself....... (and you still claim there is no ego involved!!!??? Now people can't spend thier own money as they like without you saving them from thier own stupidity?)

SOTU is also hurting the community by diminishing the meaning of these projects.

Again, Your version of the "meaning"

SOTU is hurting Justin after the fact by making money Justin COULD have made on the sale of these (yes, that is the weakest part of the argument by far, but it's still part.):

Not even worth a response.

Seems to me the only thing being hurt is a the feelings of a few members.

Look, OCD, if you can't have a discussion without throwing these attempts to insult out, then what's the point? Why even bother?

No one's FEELINGS are being "hurt". Don't believe me? Answer this question, logically: how could Akuma selling HIS OWN book for a profit hurt the FEELINGS of other people? Akuma's not doing anything PERSONALLY to anyone (with regards to selling the book SPECIFICALLY, not his personal attacks against me, which don't hurt me in the slightest).....he's diminshing the GROUP, this COMMUNITY (and THIS is where I use the word "community" to actually refer to THIS group of people. Just though you might like that clarification. ), not anyone on a PERSONAL level.

Oy. Some people's children
Show me where I replied with "Stop selling your book for profit, you big fat doody head, it hurts my feelings!!!" You must have missed the part where I explained that this didn't hurt ME, and it wasn't about ME.

Your comment is meant only to inflame.

Yawn,... Believe me bud, If i wanted to insult you I could do better than that......... I have no need of insults as I'm not really worried about how you feel..... I would argue that you have shown all the classic signs of being offended by SOTU's sale. You may again Nit Pick all you like, but where I come from, being offended is one version of getting your feelings hurt. (see what I mean about the boring literal interpretations of other peoples words?........)

So, the only thing determining right and wrong is a clause?
You'd make a good lawyer!

Zeph, you yourself have just finished refuting two other points of my argument............ Why would ask such an inflamatory question, and then insinuate there is something wrong with the legal profession??? tsk tsk.....

If someone SHOULD get something for $30 but it ends up costing them $160 or $200 or whatever....and they're HAPPY....has it STILL not cost them that money?

Who decides what someone SHOULD get??? oh thats right, you.... sorry carry on........

Now you're just being rude and insulting. And it's not even ACCURATE rudeness and insulting. It would be ONE thing if you called me an arrogant blowhard, which I completely am, and did it in a funny manner.....but no one here is having "delicate sensibilities" trod on.

ok, you're an arrogant blowhard,....... that was funny to me. Does that count?

1. I'm sorry, were you unaware of the bashing in RESPONSE? Bashing that was much WORSE? Oh yes, that's right, you AGREE with that bashing, so that makes it ok. I see. Moral relativism at its BEST!

Son, stop poking the cat with that stick!.....
But dad, Akuma is doing it too!!!!!

Grow up, if you want to be juvenile, then lets remember who posted the first disparaging remark in this thread. I believe Akuma posted a book for sale and then you began bashing his morals ect. "Daddy,.... Zeph did it FIRST!!!!" again, yawn.........

Aside from the issue of posts appearing in ORDER, and the function of the WRITTEN word and the inability to ACTUALLY gang up on someone, where were you when *I* was being "ganged up upon", on these boards? Hmmm...?

once again, How old are you?.......

and the outright attempt to ruin another members chances of selling an item at a profit borders on harrasment.

Don't minimize what this is by calling it "an item.," These are NOT just "an item" any more than your wedding rings are just "an item."

don't avoid the point. you've tried to ruin his sale. You even outright asked people not to bid if you did. Thats one method of bid rigging. You being the big project manager should know about that.

Didn't Greg once have a rule about that sort of thing?

Now you're invoking GREG?

Mentioning the aggreed upon rules is not invoking Greg....... I'm upholding the community standards just like you were. (Man I need a rule book if I'm going to try and compete with all this double talking hypocracy.......!!!)

[Zero]

So you're saying Akuma Matata?

You are the KING of the 'dynamite drop-in'!

[cinlach@aol.com]

i think it all comes down to this...akuma has every right to do whatever he wishes with his property.

but if he chooses to do so in public then he must be prepared for public opinions.

if this sale had happened behind the scenes it would've been just as unpopular but would've been cosidered (by me at least) to be a private matter.

lots of folks do lots of things in private that i don't condone...but i'm not dragging their private affairs into the limelight.

but you bring your private business into the open then you should be expecting someone to possibly have an opinion on it.

akuma knew full well the response this move would be received with...he knew it, don't kid yourself.

but he also knows there's "no such thing as bad press". he used the controversy in order to gain attention and attract a buyer.

do you really think drawing attention to this and polarizing opposing viewpoints HURT his sales or HELPED them. i'm thinking the latter.

i've always maintained that i too would sell my fan projects for more then paid price if...and i do mean IF...something catastrophic happened in my life that forced me to make such a drastic move.

zeph doesn't agree with that...and i understand why.

but if that point arrives i've got more important things to worry about then zeph's (or anyone's really) approval of my motives or actions.

i guess the summation of all this is that akuma is perfectly within his rights to do as he pleases with his property.

he's also perfectly within his rights to be a *SQUEE* while doing it. but a public sale is subject to public opinion...positive or negative.

we have both ends of the spectrum here...zeph on one side, ocd on the other.

i'm not happy seeing something that was done as a gesture of fellowship by dino (and yes...justin too) treated with such a lack of respect.

but the book's his and he can do as he pleases with it...we don't have to like it, but we can say as much to his face...and we have.

the debate between the two of you is, in point of fact, absolutely pointless.

neither of you is going to change your mind on the subject...you know it and i know it.

it's like watching a debate on religion between an atheist and a christian. neither of them is going to walk away saying "oh my god, you're absolutely right...i've been so wrong all this time."

it's fun to watch, no doubt...but ultimately pointless.

so agree to disagree, shake hands and go back to your neutral corners.

you're both good peeps in my eyes and this road leads to a conclusion that i honestly don't think either of you wants to be caught up in.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Let's try something new....let's answer each point in individual posts, so as not to tax poor OCD too much...clearly the strain of having to read my posts bothers him, so maybe bite sized chunks will be easier to swallow.

Here we go!

Actually, no i did not sell my project books for profit. I still have a complete set of #26's. So there goes the moral high ground that makes my beliefs "moral relativism" and yours correct. (at least in that aspect.)

No, there goes nothing but the "guilty conscience" angle of my statements, which was basically two lines in a post with multiple paragraphs, and was formed as a QUESTION.



Your "beliefs" are moral relativism. Do you know what the words "moral relativism" mean?

They mean "there is no such thing as wrong or right, good or bad, everyone is free to believe, think, and do whatever it is they want, regardless of the consequences."

YOU state "someone has a different opinion than you isn't "wrong", it's just their opinion"....except that there are numerous examples of people with different opinions than I.....flat earth society people, for example, or NAMBLA....and they are WRONG.

People who refuse to draw the line (or draw a line wayyyyy past community standards) are moral relativists.

That means you.

And if you DO draw the line ANYWHERE, you're a hypocrite. If dishonoring a community and using someone else's work to profit is not WRONG, then you can't draw the line ANYWHERE without being a hypocrite.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Galileo, was ridiculed and berated for stating what he thought.

By whom? Not me.

And I'm sorry, but when was Galileo making moral claims, as opposed to SCIENTIFIC claims?

You DO KNOW that there's a difference....don't you?

Galileo was also not MURDERED, as you falsely claimed before.

If you can't get simple facts straight, why should anything else you say have any credibility?

Roy Radow, sometime spokesman for the NAMBLA Steering Committee, is ridiculed and berated for stating what he thinks....and rightly so.

Do you not see the difference, here? Not EVERYONE who is ridiculed and berated for stating what they think is honorable, and deserves to NOT be ridiculed and berated.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Slavery is wrong in any form. Any attempt to say otherwise is just humans trying to make themselves feel better.

Wait....wait a minute.....

So....now you ARE drawing a line, but before, when *I* was drawing a line, it was just "my opinion" and *I* was "wrong" for trying to "push" that opinion on others....

Is that not EXACTLY what you are now doing re: slavery?

Logic, OCD. It will get you (and me, and everyone else) every single time.

There are human beings....slaves, as a matter of fact....who think slavery is a good thing. They have everything they need provided for, they never have to worry about ANYTHING other than what their master tells them. So long as they do what their master says, life is good. There is even slavery in the United States....I know, SHOCKING!...it's certainly not legal, but it's still slavery in every form of the word.

I think forced work during incarceration (that'd be slavery) is a good thing.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Children working for 16 hours a day is wrong in my opinion. It goes on in places because the culture has either called for it or condoned it.

By what evidence do you think children working 16 hours a day is wrong?

What about in agrarian societies where EVERYONE works 16 or more hours a day just to SURVIVE?

What about children who HAPPILY work 16 hours a day to provide for their families?

Is it IDEAL? No. Is it your place to say it's wrong, never having lived in those places? Certainly not.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

My point was simple. Yourself and roughly 10 or so other members have taken up six pages of thread attacking a person for doing something he has every right to do legally

Yawwwwwwnnnnn....

When are people like you going to get over the fact that EVERYONE HAS ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HE HAS THE ***LEGAL*** RIGHT TO DO THIS?

Would you DROP that already? It's NOT CONTESTED.

OY....FREAKIN'...VEY.

But just because someone has the RIGHT to do something, does not make it the RIGHT thing to do!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

and so on.. Based on your arguments, if the community makes a decision, no one should be allowed to think or act out of step for fear of the retribution.

Wrong. You've completely misunderstood, misinterpreted, or plain just didn't read my arguments.

You are completely and totally wrong. All I can do is read what I've said again, and try not to put your own biased spin on it.

And again....if you have such a problem, "attack" back! You may not have noticed, but Akuma's plenty enough of a big boy to defend himself. And if he's not doing a good enough job in YOUR opinion, take me on yourself!

Just because you'll get shredded by me in the process doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Quit whining about how someone is being "attacked" and form your OWN arguments.

( just because the retribution in this case amounts to nothing more than whining and auction tampering,

Oh blah blah diddly blah. Auction tampering. What a joke. THERE WAS NO DAMN AUCTION.

by a select few does not change the fact that the mans day is being interrupted by a group of "community members.'

Oh, poor guy, his shady dealings are being interrupted, wah wah wahhhh....

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

(these actions are a lot closer to the Nazism you mention than are my peacfully stated feelings on the "live and let live" thng)

Here's where you're wrong YET AGAIN: The NAZIS had the power to actually DO something to silence those that disagreed with them. *I* do not.

I have ZERO power but the power of my WORDS here. I am not an admin. I am not a moderator. I cannot edit anyone else's words. I cannot remove threads.

In other words, I have EXACTLY the same power YOU do, and Akuma does, and ANYBODY ELSE who cares to comment does. And, even more, no one is FORCED to READ what I write! If what I WRITE bothers anyone, they have the POWER to IGNORE me!

So spare your weak and pathethic Nazi analogy, because it doesn't WORK. If I was ACTUALLY behaving like a Nazi, I would have the POWER to REMOVE the thread ALTOGETHER.

I DO NOT.

If you want to whine about the PERSUASIVENESS of my words, I can't help you there. You're just gonna have to do a BETTER job at being persuasive, eh? And the temper tantrumy FORCE of your words tells me that I'm pretty damn persuasive indeed.

You'll notice that no one but YOU has taken up Akuma's poor, set upon "cause."

I ENCOURAGE discourse. I INSPIRE discourse. I WELCOME a challenge from you or ANYBODY on this, OCD. How ANTI-Nazi can that POSSIBLY be?