The pain of X-O

[shaxper]

I've been rereading the X-O run for the first time in years. I was amazed to rediscover just how GOOD the first few issues were, but the issues after Unity sort of feel like a downward spiral of bad plot, characterization, and writing. Never have I seen the difference between pre and post unity more drastically than this (Rai is disqualified for dying). Does X-O get better again?

[X-O MattOwar]

I feel your pain. Sadly, it does have shining moments but never really equals the beginning. Still he's my favorite character no matter how many times they vs him with Ironman. Keep reading for his sake and the sake of all those poor characters that got hit with the unity bomb.

[Todd Luck]

I've been rereading the X-O run for the first time in years. I was amazed to rediscover just how GOOD the first few issues were, but the issues after Unity sort of feel like a downward spiral of bad plot, characterization, and writing. Never have I seen the difference between pre and post unity more drastically than this (Rai is disqualified for dying). Does X-O get better again?

When Gonzalez took over the writing chores their was more of an emphasis on characterization and plot but it was done to a point that it choked every bit of action and fantasy (the reasons you buy X-O) out of most plotlines. Though I did think Randy was an interesting new character and the art was fantastic, the stories didn't do it for me. Their was some "self-contained" stories with some descent action and plot I really liked, like 21 and 25, but that was about it. And then the art went south about the time that the X-O got destoyed and Aric was slaughtering Spider Aliens again (those guys couldn't beat a pack of girl scouts post-Unity), I dropped the book.

I picked up the Master Darque issues in the Accliam era. Aric lost Orb (and his supporting cast?), cut his hair, and KILLED Darque (yeah Rai #0, and the basis of the book, went right out the window). The issues were all "beat-um up and ramble on about how tough you are" sort of stuff with Darque transformed from a schemer to a brawler.

The Pre-Unity issues were the perfect blend of story and high action. Afterwards it either swings to all-story or all-action, never finding it's balance again. To think THAT was Valiant's most popular title.

[BloodOfHeroes]

I picked up the Master Darque issues in the Accliam era. Aric lost Orb (and his supporting cast?), cut his hair, and KILLED Darque (yeah Rai #0, and the basis of the book, went right out the window).

Again, what Rai #0 says is that Shadowman (not necessarily Jack--and we DID have 2 Shadowmen running around. We know what Bob Hall was planning in 1996, but we don't know what would have been published in 1999, sadly) gave his life ridding the world of the Darque Power (not necessarily the Darques themselves). The Darques existed prior to the Darque Power (the necromantic energy released by Phil Seleski-Prime's destruction of his universe); it seems perfectly logical that they could survive the 1999 event.

Plus who's to say that Darque--of all characters--wouldn't or couldn't come back to life? I believe that we were told the armor was never freed of his influence/essence/whatever, which is a pretty easy plot device to bring his "essence" back into his body, no?

The only disappointment I had with the Giffen X-O issues is that they were never resolved. Something I believe MOTA refers to time and again as "hack writing," no?

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Don't trust what Rai 0 says. The dialogue wasn't writen by the same guy that wrote the actual story.

There's three sources that say that it was Jack that dies in 99;

Unity;

Post-Unity issues of Shadowman where he gives out the date;

and the VALIANT Timeline found in the VALIANT voice.

Consider this,

During Unity, Geoff searched his own future in Erica's computers and he discovered that he was destined to save Bloodshot.

If Erica's computers could be right about Geoff doing something that secretive, why would Elya (Elyza? I don't remember her name,lol) be wrong about Jack dying in 99?

What came during and after Birthquake was the anti-Rai #0 era, in which writers went out of their way to invalidate Rai #0.

This was done because there was this stigma about the company (mostly mentioned over and over again in Wizard) that said that the reasons sales had gone down at VALIANT was because Rai #0 revealed too much about their future and readers lost interest.

[BloodOfHeroes]

And the fact that Ennis's introduction of Zero after Boniface's death was originally to be a VH-1 tale (or so goes the word on the street)? I guess that comes closer to proving it, but again, we'll never know.

In SOME world, Jack Boniface *did* die in 1999. But he wasn't our Jack, of course.

BoH

[dave]

is that the one who died from an intrusive saxophone? that's vh-2 right?

i haven't read all those...probably won't.

been reading timewalker. the harbinger wars was supposed to be far more, i thought, than a 3 issue story arc. are there any other issues that dealt with the wars?

[ManofTheAtom]

Ennis on Shadowman is no different from Master Darque dying in X-O.

As I said, Post BQ is the anti-Rai #0 era, in which VALIANT was going out of its way to invalidate it.

Is it any wonder that even "hot" names couldn't keep the company going?

Sometimes content is more important than popularity.

VALIANT could have gotten (most popular writer, comic or otherwise that you can think of) to write a comic for them and that wouldn't have been enough to keep people interested if what (most popular writer, comic or otherwise that you can think of) wrote invalidated what came before or just wasn't interesting to begin with.

[ManofTheAtom]

is that the one who died from an intrusive saxophone? that's vh-2 right?

It was VH 2 but I think that Ennis' story could have worked set in VH 1 if you changed the dialogue.

Some of the character designs must have been changed when it was decided to make it a VH 2 story, but it's possible that the snake guy and the "new" (I forget her name) could have worked in VH 1 too.

Deadside could have worked in VH 1.

[Todd Luck]

i haven't read all those...probably won't.

been reading timewalker. the harbinger wars was supposed to be far more, i thought, than a 3 issue story arc. are there any other issues that dealt with the wars?

Not really, considering the Harbinger Wars started about 40 or so years from when Rai #0 was published and, once started, lasts nearlly a millenium (Timewalker had to go into the future to experience it). Rai #0 is the best source of info on it.

The Vistitor should have dealt with it in some fashion since he was the Sting from the Harbinger Wars who had traveled back to our time, but I never got the series so I can't tell you for sure. Some of the future books had some mentions of it but nothing overly informative while I read the titles.

[ManofTheAtom]

Hopefully Kevin will see this question:

Was the Sting from the Timewalker Harbinger Wars trilogy supposed to be the same Sting from the Visitor?

Visitor #13 has some glimpses of life during the Harbinger Wars.

Read it at your own peril, the art is... urgh...

[dave]

one thing that i did find very surprising about the timewalker series was how similar the art was even with 3 different artists-perlin castrillo and leonardi...perlin's work on the book is very dissimilar to his bloodshot work. where are all the mobsters?!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Valiant had the world on a golden plate in late 1992. They could have done anything they wanted, gone anywhere they wanted, and the public would have followed them....and, in fact, the public DID follow them for a good two years....but two years is 24 months, and 24 months is an AWFUL long time forto screw things up.

And screw them up they did....

Using Rai #0 as an excuse is just a crutch...the fact is, the stories that followed Unity were, for the most part, AVERAGE at BEST. Some were downright awful. Some managed to keep the momentum going for a while (Harbinger, for example, or BWS' A&A)...but, for the most part, it all fell apart...and fast.

Valiant went from a company that literally could have published crap on a stick and people would have bought it....to publishing crap on a stick, and having people DESPISE it. They were at the top in 1992....by 1994, they were despised throughout the industry.

Image *almost* suffered the same fate, but the umbrella of Image as a publisher allowed the fan favorites (Spawn) to cover for the dreck that was printed by the hundreds of thousands (virtually anything Rob Liefeld has ever touched.) Image books weren't connected except in the most tenuous of ways.

Valiant, however, was too closely interconnected, on purpose, to make individual books work on their own...the entire line lived...and eventually died...on the strength of it's weakest book.

Blaming it on one book, however pivotal, is just silly.

[VanHook]

Hopefully Kevin will see this question:

Was the Sting from the Timewalker Harbinger Wars trilogy supposed to be the same Sting from the Visitor?

Visitor #13 has some glimpses of life during the Harbinger Wars.

Read it at your own peril, the art is... urgh...

Yes, same Sting. I had thoughts on what went on with Sting during those years that I would have explored had the opportunity arisen.

And... that's a future Chan screwing with/teaching/guiding young Chan in his Dreamlike sequences in the Visitor. That would have been foreshadowing for a story dealing with time travel and how we're connected with ourselves throughout all timelines, etc. Some more than others.

Sadly, Visitor #13 was screwed up when the printing film was made. The black lines got "Stroked" making them several times fatter than they were supposed to be. It ended up looking like it was inked with a black magic marker (the really fat kind!).

Bernard and (I believe Paul Autio) did a wonderful job, unfortunately, it never saw print that way.

Best,
KV

[whetteon]

Valiant, however, was too closely interconnected, on purpose, to make individual books work on their own...the entire line lived...and eventually died...on the strength of it's weakest book.

Blaming it on one book, however pivotal, is just silly.

Insightful. It's such a great point and I don't think I've considered that before.

[Ryan]

one thing that i did find very surprising about the timewalker series was how similar the art was even with 3 different artists-perlin castrillo and leonardi...perlin's work on the book is very dissimilar to his bloodshot work. where are all the mobsters?!

I'm just pulling this from my memory (which can be quite faulty), but I think that's because they were all inked by Gonzalo Mayo. I remember him because he had a real strong style to his inking that tended to overpower the pencils of anyone.

[Ryan]

Sadly, Visitor #13 was screwed up when the printing film was made. The black lines got "Stroked" making them several times fatter than they were supposed to be. It ended up looking like it was inked with a black magic marker (the really fat kind!).

Bernard and (I believe Paul Autio) did a wonderful job, unfortunately, it never saw print that way.

Best,
KV

I always wondered what happened to the art that issue! It seemed so odd since that was such an important issue and Bernard's artwork was always so awesome.