Unity 2000 4 - 6
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Todd Luck
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Wow that would be a very strange correction. The scene involving Magnus and Shadowman arriving was spread over three pages! Plus it has plot devations. The plot asks Starlin to use a Manning design for Elya's hospital bed (he doesn't, the bed looks like it's from the 20th century) and asks for Magnus to hold Shadowman as they fly (it was vice versa instead which made no sense, Magnus has superstrength and that version of Jack didn't!).magnusr wrote:In the plot Magnus and Shadowman are supposed to arrive later than the other heroes to the fight. In the art they are there all along. As published, they do arrive late. I've never been told who made the corrections and where that art is.Todd Luck wrote:Actually I don't think the art was ever corrected to go along with the plot
Last edited by Todd Luck on Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TimeWillTell
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Hello All. I'm new here. I've been browsing around this board basically since it's inception, but have only now decided to sign up and join the party.
Often, what I have read here is quite interesting.... Sometimes right on the money, other times completely off base, especially when it comes to Unity 2000. Rather than question my credibility or character, listen to what I have to say and I can set some things straight.
First and foremost, Jim Starlin's comments are totally off base. He should be ashamed. Both Jim Shooter and Jim Starlin were paid every cent owed to them (albeit late). Jim Starlin actually was paid an additional amount not as a bonus, but rather as a settlement to compensate for the late payments. I know of no slander etc. that occured.
Someone here mentioned they spoke recently (I think) with three people who worked at Acclaim regarding Unity 2000. At the time Unity 2000 was in the works there were only three people involved!
The reasons Unity 2000 was never completed are many. Too many, in fact, to detail here. I do know that all issues were ready to go, but never saw the light of day.
You can question the veracity of my statements, that's your right. Just remember that most of what is posted here is speculation, pure and simple. What I have posted is fact as Time Will Tell.
If you'd like to ask me anything, go ahead. I'll try to answer as best I can, when I can.
-TimeWillTell
Often, what I have read here is quite interesting.... Sometimes right on the money, other times completely off base, especially when it comes to Unity 2000. Rather than question my credibility or character, listen to what I have to say and I can set some things straight.
First and foremost, Jim Starlin's comments are totally off base. He should be ashamed. Both Jim Shooter and Jim Starlin were paid every cent owed to them (albeit late). Jim Starlin actually was paid an additional amount not as a bonus, but rather as a settlement to compensate for the late payments. I know of no slander etc. that occured.
Someone here mentioned they spoke recently (I think) with three people who worked at Acclaim regarding Unity 2000. At the time Unity 2000 was in the works there were only three people involved!
The reasons Unity 2000 was never completed are many. Too many, in fact, to detail here. I do know that all issues were ready to go, but never saw the light of day.
You can question the veracity of my statements, that's your right. Just remember that most of what is posted here is speculation, pure and simple. What I have posted is fact as Time Will Tell.
If you'd like to ask me anything, go ahead. I'll try to answer as best I can, when I can.
-TimeWillTell
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ManofTheAtom
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Tell us the reasons, I'd like to see them, heh.
I know Perlham in fact refered to it as a lame Crisis rip off, and that he had plans to completely ignore the ending.
Now that I know what that ending is, I can't help but wonder if what he had planned in fact reversed it so that the original VALIANT characters would be revived (at least in one form.
For example, U2K ends with VH 2 Master Darque surviving, yet Perlham's Dr. Mirage revival had the VH 1 Master Darque).
One does have to wonder, however:
Does U2K end as it does because Shooter wanted it to end like that or because Acclaim told him to?
Considering that Perlham was ready to reverse the ending one can only assume that it was Shooter's decision.
I've read arguments that say that Shooter was doing what Acclaim told him to do as well as arguments that U2K was Shooter's revenge.
If he was doing what Acclaim told him to do why would Perlham feel the need to change it after the fact instead of ask Shooter to alter the ending?
And if it was revenge, how is he winning by killing off the characters he created? Isn't that like shooting himself in the foot?
I know Perlham in fact refered to it as a lame Crisis rip off, and that he had plans to completely ignore the ending.
Now that I know what that ending is, I can't help but wonder if what he had planned in fact reversed it so that the original VALIANT characters would be revived (at least in one form.
For example, U2K ends with VH 2 Master Darque surviving, yet Perlham's Dr. Mirage revival had the VH 1 Master Darque).
One does have to wonder, however:
Does U2K end as it does because Shooter wanted it to end like that or because Acclaim told him to?
Considering that Perlham was ready to reverse the ending one can only assume that it was Shooter's decision.
I've read arguments that say that Shooter was doing what Acclaim told him to do as well as arguments that U2K was Shooter's revenge.
If he was doing what Acclaim told him to do why would Perlham feel the need to change it after the fact instead of ask Shooter to alter the ending?
And if it was revenge, how is he winning by killing off the characters he created? Isn't that like shooting himself in the foot?
Last edited by ManofTheAtom on Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... 
Exactly. As usual you are spot on.Todd Luck wrote:Wow that would be a very strange correction. The scene involving Magnus and Shadowman arriving was spread over three pages! Plus it has plot devations. The plot asks Starlin to use a Maning design for Elya's hospital bed (he doesn't, the bed looks like it's of 20th century) and for Magnus to hold Shadowman as they fly (it was vice versa instead which made no sense, Magnus has superstrength and that version of Jack wouldn't!).
Page 7 (house floating in air) has Magnus and Shadowman both flying with their own packs around the house. As published there is a new panel with Shadowman holding Magnus and they are removed from around the house.
Page 8 (heroes gathering) has Magnus between Archer and Bloodshot and Shadowman between Solar and Armstrong (both with flight packs). As published they are removed.
Page 10 (zombies) has Magnus in the center of the top panel. As published he is replaced with Archer.
Page 12 (whole page of zombies) has Magnus behind the beast. As published he is removed.
Page 13 (Sandria transforming) has Magnus. As published he is replaced by the beast.
Page 15 (more Sandria) second panel has zombies in the background. As published they are replaced with Magnus and Shadowman arriving.
/Magnus
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Todd Luck
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Manoftheatom, the universe and the idea of getting rid of the old ones was Accliam's ideas. From Petrilak's interview with Shooter on U2000:
"So did they approach you with the story for Unity?
No- they asked me if I would do a story- the only thing they had that they knew they wanted is that it was to be based on the death of Jack Boniface, and they wanted to revamp their Universe and straighten it all out, make it make sense."
http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/joe/shoot2/
Perham described the universe Accliam wanted as a hog pog of VH-2 and VH-1 which we see in the U2000 miniseries on Alexander's world (VH-3): X-O and Ninjak (in the unpublished issues) look like VH-1, Shadowman and Darque look like VH-2, ect. I would quote the CBR interview on this but I can't get the page to work.
Perham was going to create a different VH-3 (much like DC ignored the "composite Earth" at the end of Crisis and ended up setting their comics in a different one all together) and we already know what his VH-3 would've been like. You've read the plot synopsis for the Dr. Mirage special and saw Carmen on the cover (hell you probably saw the VH-3 version of Darque they had too). So, yeah, it would've been yet another universe.
EDIT: Here's an additional comment by Shooter:
"I do bring in a couple iterations of Bloodshot, but the characters that Acclaim wanted me to use were the characters that they wanted for their new universe, which essentially are characters that would likely become videogames."
http://www.geocities.com/angelo_mortall ... ooter.html
"So did they approach you with the story for Unity?
No- they asked me if I would do a story- the only thing they had that they knew they wanted is that it was to be based on the death of Jack Boniface, and they wanted to revamp their Universe and straighten it all out, make it make sense."
http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/joe/shoot2/
Perham described the universe Accliam wanted as a hog pog of VH-2 and VH-1 which we see in the U2000 miniseries on Alexander's world (VH-3): X-O and Ninjak (in the unpublished issues) look like VH-1, Shadowman and Darque look like VH-2, ect. I would quote the CBR interview on this but I can't get the page to work.
Perham was going to create a different VH-3 (much like DC ignored the "composite Earth" at the end of Crisis and ended up setting their comics in a different one all together) and we already know what his VH-3 would've been like. You've read the plot synopsis for the Dr. Mirage special and saw Carmen on the cover (hell you probably saw the VH-3 version of Darque they had too). So, yeah, it would've been yet another universe.
EDIT: Here's an additional comment by Shooter:
"I do bring in a couple iterations of Bloodshot, but the characters that Acclaim wanted me to use were the characters that they wanted for their new universe, which essentially are characters that would likely become videogames."
http://www.geocities.com/angelo_mortall ... ooter.html
Last edited by Todd Luck on Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ManofTheAtom
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Well, I wouldn't say that DC ignored it, it just took time for the reboots to catch up to the characters, heh.
What we have here is a case of the right hand slapping the left hand while the feet don't know where to run.
Acclaim tells Jim to do a mixed universe, so he writes it.
Then Perlham (who works for Acclaim and is in fact in charge of the line after Banmally leaves) wants to ignore the ending and instead focus on a reality that's closer to the original.
If he's in charge why didn't he just ask Jim to change the ending of U2K?
I think that when Shooter says "what Acclaim wanted" he specifically means Marts.
Maybe asking Shooter wasn't an option. Maybe Perlham HAD to ignore it because of the problems in paying Shooter.
He couldn't ask him to rewrite the ending of six when he hadn't paid him for the dialogue for five, so he chose the path of less resistance, to just make the change without a cosmic event set before it.
What we have here is a case of the right hand slapping the left hand while the feet don't know where to run.
Acclaim tells Jim to do a mixed universe, so he writes it.
Then Perlham (who works for Acclaim and is in fact in charge of the line after Banmally leaves) wants to ignore the ending and instead focus on a reality that's closer to the original.
If he's in charge why didn't he just ask Jim to change the ending of U2K?
I think that when Shooter says "what Acclaim wanted" he specifically means Marts.
Maybe asking Shooter wasn't an option. Maybe Perlham HAD to ignore it because of the problems in paying Shooter.
He couldn't ask him to rewrite the ending of six when he hadn't paid him for the dialogue for five, so he chose the path of less resistance, to just make the change without a cosmic event set before it.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom on Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Todd Luck
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Accliam wasn't really on good terms with Shooter at that point. Shooter was already withholding the script for issue 6 because he hadn't been paid! Plus reworking the plot would've delayed it even more and it was already monthes late at this point.ManofTheAtom wrote:
If he's in charge why didn't he just ask Jim to change the ending of U2K?
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ManofTheAtom
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Yeah, that's what I figured just now.
Even so, it's possible that Shooter might have prefered to change the ending so that the VALIANT characters would come out on top.
Obviously Perlham understood that the VALIANT characters had a better chance than the VH 2 crappola.
I think that what Perlham intended to do with his reboots (Tomb Raider rip offs notwithstanding) was bring back the original universe, but he was stuck after U2K and did what he could do.
Had he and Shooter worked together the story (delays be damned, lol) would have been much better.
Even so, it's possible that Shooter might have prefered to change the ending so that the VALIANT characters would come out on top.
Obviously Perlham understood that the VALIANT characters had a better chance than the VH 2 crappola.
I think that what Perlham intended to do with his reboots (Tomb Raider rip offs notwithstanding) was bring back the original universe, but he was stuck after U2K and did what he could do.
Had he and Shooter worked together the story (delays be damned, lol) would have been much better.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom on Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TimeWillTell
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For what it's worth....
Acclaim approached Shooter to do the Unity 2000 series. Acclaim did not approach Jim with a plot, etc. The storyline was developed between Jim Shooter and the series editor, Mike Marts. They worked TOGETHER on the series. There was no bullying, from either side. The idea was simple. Try to bring everything together so a publishing program could move forward.
As I said, there are a number of reasons the series never was completed. Perham's involvement was one of them. Based on his own personal reasons, Perham did not like the way Unity 2000 was going to play out (read between the lines). So he had no intention of allowing it to see the light of day in its original form as developed, written, drawn and edited by Shooter, Starlin and Marts.
After Mike Marts left for Marvel, the editing job fell on Omar Banmally. At that point the series was just about complete. There were only minor details to work out . Most of the work involved coordinating content coming in from Starlin, Shooter, lettering, etc. Unfortunately, Omar dropped the ball, and was eventually laid off as part of a larger layoff at the company.
Jim Perham volunteered to take over the editing position to get Unity 2000 completed. At the time, he has working for Acclaim Entertainment, Inc. not Acclaim Comics. At that time, Perham had not even seen how Unity 2000 was going to play out. Once he did, and didn't like what he saw he wanted to change things. I do not think Perham EVER spoke to Jim Shooter or Jim Starlin about his ideas, knowing what the reaction would be.
To say that the series was not completed soley because of Jim Perham would be incorrect. There were many reasons. Although, I'm sure Perham was quite happy that it was never published.
What Mike Marts, Jim Shooter and Jim Starlin came up with was great. There was no need to change a thing other than for personal reasons.
-TimeWillTell
Acclaim approached Shooter to do the Unity 2000 series. Acclaim did not approach Jim with a plot, etc. The storyline was developed between Jim Shooter and the series editor, Mike Marts. They worked TOGETHER on the series. There was no bullying, from either side. The idea was simple. Try to bring everything together so a publishing program could move forward.
As I said, there are a number of reasons the series never was completed. Perham's involvement was one of them. Based on his own personal reasons, Perham did not like the way Unity 2000 was going to play out (read between the lines). So he had no intention of allowing it to see the light of day in its original form as developed, written, drawn and edited by Shooter, Starlin and Marts.
After Mike Marts left for Marvel, the editing job fell on Omar Banmally. At that point the series was just about complete. There were only minor details to work out . Most of the work involved coordinating content coming in from Starlin, Shooter, lettering, etc. Unfortunately, Omar dropped the ball, and was eventually laid off as part of a larger layoff at the company.
Jim Perham volunteered to take over the editing position to get Unity 2000 completed. At the time, he has working for Acclaim Entertainment, Inc. not Acclaim Comics. At that time, Perham had not even seen how Unity 2000 was going to play out. Once he did, and didn't like what he saw he wanted to change things. I do not think Perham EVER spoke to Jim Shooter or Jim Starlin about his ideas, knowing what the reaction would be.
To say that the series was not completed soley because of Jim Perham would be incorrect. There were many reasons. Although, I'm sure Perham was quite happy that it was never published.
What Mike Marts, Jim Shooter and Jim Starlin came up with was great. There was no need to change a thing other than for personal reasons.
-TimeWillTell
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ManofTheAtom
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I completely disagree with that.
What Shooter, Starlin, and Marts came up with was crap. It was a story designed to move even further away from VALIANT's core and deeper into turning the universe into a DC/Marvel/Image rip off.
Your post does confirm what I just figured out above, though, which makes a lot of sense.
I do wish, however, that Perlham had taken a stronger editorial position and altered the ending of U2K instead of just ignored it.
What Shooter, Starlin, and Marts came up with was crap. It was a story designed to move even further away from VALIANT's core and deeper into turning the universe into a DC/Marvel/Image rip off.
Your post does confirm what I just figured out above, though, which makes a lot of sense.
I do wish, however, that Perlham had taken a stronger editorial position and altered the ending of U2K instead of just ignored it.
Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... -
TimeWillTell
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Hey people.
Contrary to what you want to think or believe, Jim Perham was really a non-issue when it came to the Unity 2000 series. The series would have been completed in its original form if it were not for circumstances beyond the control of Acclaim comics, regardless of what Perham wanted.
So my suggestion regarding Unity 2000? Drop Perham from the equation and focus on the facts.
-TimeWillTell
Contrary to what you want to think or believe, Jim Perham was really a non-issue when it came to the Unity 2000 series. The series would have been completed in its original form if it were not for circumstances beyond the control of Acclaim comics, regardless of what Perham wanted.
So my suggestion regarding Unity 2000? Drop Perham from the equation and focus on the facts.
-TimeWillTell
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ManofTheAtom
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That's my point, heh.
Because Perlham was a non-issue that's why we had a problem.
Had he taken a stronger position about it once he was put in charge and became aware of it, the story could have been salvaged.
Instead of just ignoring it, he could have fixed it.
Pay Shooter and Starlin and ask them to make the story better.
Because Perlham was a non-issue that's why we had a problem.
Had he taken a stronger position about it once he was put in charge and became aware of it, the story could have been salvaged.
Instead of just ignoring it, he could have fixed it.
Pay Shooter and Starlin and ask them to make the story better.
Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... -
TimeWillTell
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Calling Unity 2000 crap is your right. Here's a fact...
Mike Marts is a better editor now and was a better editor then, than Jim Perham can ever hope to be.
As I said... Many of the comments here are mere speculation. Just now someone posted AGAIN, that Shooter wasn't paid at the time Perham took over the editing for Unity #6. That's totally false. Totally.
I don't know where you get your information, but you better look for a more reliable source.
-TimeWillTell
Mike Marts is a better editor now and was a better editor then, than Jim Perham can ever hope to be.
As I said... Many of the comments here are mere speculation. Just now someone posted AGAIN, that Shooter wasn't paid at the time Perham took over the editing for Unity #6. That's totally false. Totally.
I don't know where you get your information, but you better look for a more reliable source.
-TimeWillTell
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TimeWillTell
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ManofTheAtom
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I know I read that one of Perlham's first things was to pay Shooter and Starlin. I also know I read that when he was put in charge he made sure to pay the colorists and the letterer, as well as the inker.
Then the colorist lost their originals when their database broke or something like that, so he had to get someone else to do it (Vanhook I think, not sure).
I'm not debating payments because I'm sure people got paid for their work, what I'm saying is that he could have paid them TWICE, once for Marts crappy "let's turn VALIANT into DC!!" version, and then again for a new "let's turn VALIANT back into VALIANT" version.
Then the colorist lost their originals when their database broke or something like that, so he had to get someone else to do it (Vanhook I think, not sure).
I'm not debating payments because I'm sure people got paid for their work, what I'm saying is that he could have paid them TWICE, once for Marts crappy "let's turn VALIANT into DC!!" version, and then again for a new "let's turn VALIANT back into VALIANT" version.
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ManofTheAtom
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Nope, don't know him, I just don't like rip offs, and U2K was a Crisis rip off.TimeWillTell wrote:Manoftheatom.
I guess you're a friend of Perham...
-TimeWillTell
You tell me, what's so wrong with Perlham disliking U2K?
He wanted VALIANT to be VALIANT, he had been with the company since Shooter was ousted, he understood what worked and what didn't and saw all the mistakes that Layton and Nicieza made and wanted to avoid repeating them.
What's wrong with that?
Marts, on the other hand, kept doing the same thing Nicieza did, one reboot after another.
"Let's keep rebooting till we get it right" is a philosophy that only ensures that you move farther away from your core.
Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... Here's one possible source:TimeWillTell wrote:I don't know where you get your information, but you better look for a more reliable source.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... cgi?id=184
Quote from Perham: "Jim's absolutely right, we have not paid him for 5."
/Magnus
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TimeWillTell
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Way off base...
"Make sure to pay Shooter, Starlin, etc." Total misinformation. Perham had no authority or clout to get anyone paid. Lost work? Sorry. More misinformation.
I'm not here to argue, or change your opinions. I'm simply tryiing to set the record straight on a few things. Believe what you want to.
-TimeWillTell
"Make sure to pay Shooter, Starlin, etc." Total misinformation. Perham had no authority or clout to get anyone paid. Lost work? Sorry. More misinformation.
I'm not here to argue, or change your opinions. I'm simply tryiing to set the record straight on a few things. Believe what you want to.
-TimeWillTell
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ManofTheAtom
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I had forgotten what Perlham said in that interview.
Now we know that the creator he was probably talking about was Waid, who confessed that he only did the Acclaim work for the paycheck, he didn't give a damn about what he was doing (not that much of a surprise since VALIANT didn't have talking dogs...)
And he admits that VH 2 was a bad idea, a terrible idea.
Now we know that the creator he was probably talking about was Waid, who confessed that he only did the Acclaim work for the paycheck, he didn't give a damn about what he was doing (not that much of a surprise since VALIANT didn't have talking dogs...)
And he admits that VH 2 was a bad idea, a terrible idea.
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ManofTheAtom
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I think I read elsewhere that Shooter was paid, but it's been many years and don't remember where it was.magnusr wrote:Here's one possible source:TimeWillTell wrote:I don't know where you get your information, but you better look for a more reliable source.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... cgi?id=184
Quote from Perham: "Jim's absolutely right, we have not paid him for 5."
/Magnus
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Interesting topic. I think I read or heard somewhere once that Perham was going to include
an epiloge at the end of U2K revealing it was all a dream/nightmare.
If so, that would support Time will tell's position that Perham didn't
like the direction the story was going.
Me personally, I think Starlin was a poor choice as a penciller.
Esp. after comparing Shooters plot/script with what was drawn.
I'm sure however, there were many factors involved that contributed to U2K's failure.
DAN
an epiloge at the end of U2K revealing it was all a dream/nightmare.
If so, that would support Time will tell's position that Perham didn't
like the direction the story was going.
Me personally, I think Starlin was a poor choice as a penciller.
Esp. after comparing Shooters plot/script with what was drawn.
I'm sure however, there were many factors involved that contributed to U2K's failure.
DAN
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TimeWillTell
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Don't believe everything you read. When Acclaim acquired Voyager, Jim Perham was released, only to be hired to work in the operations department at Acclaim Entertainment, Inc.
He was a non-player with anything at Acclaim Comics (whether for the good or the bad). That's the truth. No one in the comics division actually wanted Perham's involvement in it no matter how hard he tried to get involved. Let's say it was a disagreement (again either good or bad) with everyone else in the division. He was never an amployee of Acclaim Comics.
There was no way the corporate heads at Acclaim were going to go ahead with Perham's comic book ideas. The division was lucky to be able to at least try and publish Unity 2000.
As I've said again and again, there were a number of reasons the series wasn't published. Stop harping on the Perham angle. It has no relevence whatsoever.
-TimeWillTell
He was a non-player with anything at Acclaim Comics (whether for the good or the bad). That's the truth. No one in the comics division actually wanted Perham's involvement in it no matter how hard he tried to get involved. Let's say it was a disagreement (again either good or bad) with everyone else in the division. He was never an amployee of Acclaim Comics.
There was no way the corporate heads at Acclaim were going to go ahead with Perham's comic book ideas. The division was lucky to be able to at least try and publish Unity 2000.
As I've said again and again, there were a number of reasons the series wasn't published. Stop harping on the Perham angle. It has no relevence whatsoever.
-TimeWillTell
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ManofTheAtom
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I'd have liked for U2K to end with Phil Seleski (in his pajamas, with his glasses, in his kitchen) putting down U2K #6 and saying "that's the worst comic book I've ever read!", then a bright light comes through his window followed by an explosion that blows the glass.
See the chair and the magazine on the table? That's U2K #6!!
See the chair and the magazine on the table? That's U2K #6!!
Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...