Opinions on the Harbinger 'eras'?

[Ryan]

I haven't read the post-Unity Harbinger in forever, and some I never read. Wondering what peoples' opinions are on these, if anyone is still interested.

Shooter era 1-7
Unity 8-9
Lapham era 0,10-13
Fontenot era pt.1 14-25
Fontenot era pt. 2 26-38 ('New Harbingers')
Vanhook era 39-41

[Ryan]

Shooter era + Unity - some of the best comics ever made (IMO). Established Harbinger as the flagship team book, the X-Men of Valiant but with their own unique style and voice that was in some ways nothing like X-Men.

Lapham era - I don't remember much other than being a bit disappointed by #0, need to do a re-read. I think it's his first writing work, Stray Bullets (that he did later) was good (although the 'meta' story never materialized). He has a knack for writing teen characters.

Fontenot era 1 - I know I read most of these, again don't remember much. Also he must have been a very young guy getting his first writing work, I think he was from Knob Row/Kubert school? Crazy to get your first writing work on a flagship title that was selling tons of copies at the time. I remember loving Harbinger #25 and the fight between Pete and Harada is one of the most iconic post-Unity moments.

Fontenot era 2 - I remember reading these at the beginning of the change and not liking it as much without Pete. At some point I stopped reading (looks like most people did).

Vanhook era - Don't remember these. Not sure if Vanhook was brought in to wrap things up or if he had bigger plans that were cut short due to Birthquake cancelation.

[ManofTheAtom]

Shooter era + Unity - some of the best comics ever made (IMO). Established Harbinger as the flagship team book, the X-Men of Valiant but with their own unique style and voice that was in some ways nothing like X-Men.

Lapham era - I don't remember much other than being a bit disappointed by #0, need to do a re-read. I think it's his first writing work, Stray Bullets (that he did later) was good (although the 'meta' story never materialized). He has a knack for writing teen characters.

Fontenot era 1 - I know I read most of these, again don't remember much. Also he must have been a very young guy getting his first writing work, I think he was from Knob Row/Kubert school? Crazy to get your first writing work on a flagship title that was selling tons of copies at the time. I remember loving Harbinger #25 and the fight between Pete and Harada is one of the most iconic post-Unity moments.

Fontenot era 2 - I remember reading these at the beginning of the change and not liking it as much without Pete. At some point I stopped reading (looks like most people did).

Vanhook era - Don't remember these. Not sure if Vanhook was brought in to wrap things up or if he had bigger plans that were cut short due to Birthquake cancelation.

I got into VALIANT after Deathmate, so I first read the Fontenot stuff before I did the Shooter or Lapham stuff.

I liked all of it, to be honest.

[Ryan]

I got into VALIANT after Deathmate, so I first read the Fontenot stuff before I did the Shooter or Lapham stuff.

I liked all of it, to be honest.

That's cool, reading backwards like that to fill in the backstory can be really fun sometimes.

So any thoughts on how it ended and where the Vanhook run was going?

I'm really not a fan of Pete as 'The Harbinger'. It's such a logic gap between how the early issues are to Pete becoming a time traveler cliche super villain in a red armor suit. Like a bad Marvel comic.

The way the Visitor ended was a big 'jump the shark' moment for me, the way it had been set up and hyped from the beginning just didn't fit with the reveal. There's a thread on here somewhere where Vanhook even says they didn't know who the Visitor was going to be until some time after it had been coming out. That all soured me on reading the late Harbingers.

[ManofTheAtom]

I got into VALIANT after Deathmate, so I first read the Fontenot stuff before I did the Shooter or Lapham stuff.

I liked all of it, to be honest.

That's cool, reading backwards like that to fill in the backstory can be really fun sometimes.

So any thoughts on how it ended and where the Vanhook run was going?

I'm really not a fan of Pete as 'The Harbinger'. It's such a logic gap between how the early issues are to Pete becoming a time traveler cliche super villain in a red armor suit. Like a bad Marvel comic.

The way the Visitor ended was a big 'jump the shark' moment for me, the way it had been set up and hyped from the beginning just didn't fit with the reveal. There's a thread on here somewhere where Vanhook even says they didn't know who the Visitor was going to be until some time after it had been coming out. That all soured me on reading the late Harbingers.

I like how he turned Faith into the new leader of the resistance, which was in keeping with Rai #0.

I didn't mind Pete being the Harbinger, it made more sense than it being just a random guy that happened to be just as powerful.

I may have had problems with the Visitor coming from the future, but I don't recall what they were this far from then. Now it doesn't seem that bad specially since it was somewhat set up.

THAT said, the man Ivar met during the Harbinger Wars that I believe was supposed to be Peter and, therefore, the Visitor (again, I don't remember the details) was too young given the state of the world as presented in that comic and Rai #0.

Which is to say when we see Kris in Rai #0 as an old woman she is living in a house in what appears to be a regular neighborhood, while, in contrast, the man Ivar met we think is Peter lived in an apocalyptic landscape, did he not?

Whether that man was or wasn't Peter, didn't the Visitor remember the Harbinger Wars? Again, I don't remember the details.

It would be cool for Peter to have vanished after he left his grandkids with Kris and gone back in time to the present to become the Visitor, and I wouldn't have ANY problem with that, but things don't perfectly line up for that to work as well as it could.

[Ryan]

Pete goes from this:

To this:

The character and the style seem like they're from different planets altogether.

[Ryan]

I like how he turned Faith into the new leader of the resistance, which was in keeping with Rai #0.

I didn't mind Pete being the Harbinger, it made more sense than it being just a random guy that happened to be just as powerful.

I may have had problems with the Visitor coming from the future, but I don't recall what they were this far from then. Now it doesn't seem that bad specially since it was somewhat set up.

THAT said, the man Ivar met during the Harbinger Wars that I believe was supposed to be Peter and, therefore, the Visitor (again, I don't remember the details) was too young given the state of the world as presented in that comic and Rai #0.

Which is to say when we see Kris in Rai #0 as an old woman she is living in a house in what appears to be a regular neighborhood, while, in contrast, the man Ivar met we think is Peter lived in an apocalyptic landscape, did he not?

Whether that man was or wasn't Peter, didn't the Visitor remember the Harbinger Wars? Again, I don't remember the details.

It would be cool for Peter to have vanished after he left his grandkids with Kris and gone back in time to the present to become the Visitor, and I wouldn't have ANY problem with that, but things don't perfectly line up for that to work as well as it could.

Yeah that's true about Faith, but it seemed a bit too fast. Rai 0 made it seem like she would be the leader many years later.

The details of it all are foggy to me as well. It doesn't make any sense though why would Pete pose as an alien? If he wanted a disguise, ok, but pretend to be an alien with totally different powers makes no sense and is never explained in any coherent way IIRC.

It just felt like they were just making up whatever they could think of to try and get a hit in those last years and then trying to figure out how it would fit later. None of it vibes with Rai 0 either.

[ManofTheAtom]

I like how he turned Faith into the new leader of the resistance, which was in keeping with Rai #0.

I didn't mind Pete being the Harbinger, it made more sense than it being just a random guy that happened to be just as powerful.

I may have had problems with the Visitor coming from the future, but I don't recall what they were this far from then. Now it doesn't seem that bad specially since it was somewhat set up.

THAT said, the man Ivar met during the Harbinger Wars that I believe was supposed to be Peter and, therefore, the Visitor (again, I don't remember the details) was too young given the state of the world as presented in that comic and Rai #0.

Which is to say when we see Kris in Rai #0 as an old woman she is living in a house in what appears to be a regular neighborhood, while, in contrast, the man Ivar met we think is Peter lived in an apocalyptic landscape, did he not?

Whether that man was or wasn't Peter, didn't the Visitor remember the Harbinger Wars? Again, I don't remember the details.

It would be cool for Peter to have vanished after he left his grandkids with Kris and gone back in time to the present to become the Visitor, and I wouldn't have ANY problem with that, but things don't perfectly line up for that to work as well as it could.

Yeah that's true about Faith, but it seemed a bit too fast. Rai 0 made it seem like she would be the leader many years later.

The details of it all are foggy to me as well. It doesn't make any sense though why would Pete pose as an alien? If he wanted a disguise, ok, but pretend to be an alien with totally different powers makes no sense and is never explained in any coherent way IIRC.

It just felt like they were just making up whatever they could think of to try and get a hit in those last years and then trying to figure out how it would fit later. None of it vibes with Rai 0 either.

I didn't mind that they went there with Faith when they did, I just wish we had seen more and something more coherent.

As for the alien thing, maybe if Faith had been involved more she could have suggested it or something.

[ManofTheAtom]

Pete goes from this:
Screenshot 2025-03-25 221945.png

To this:
RCO018_1494299846.jpg




The character and the style seem like they're from different planets altogether.

Harada's manipulations.

[Ryan]

I didn't mind that they went there with Faith when they did, I just wish we had seen more and something more coherent.

For sure. If they'd made the effort to actually tie it in to Rai 0 and explain it better it could have worked.

Harada's manipulations.

I like the explanation that Phil messed up reality so bad that the farther away we get from A&O the more crazy things get and the more 'comic booky' the world becomes.

That's a good in-story way to explain everything post-Chaos effect (including X-O/IM, VH2, U2K, multiverses, etc, etc.), and that at least makes the entire Valiant library make some sort of 'sense' (for me anyway). And it actually makes Erica look right during Unity in hindsight. But it still doesn't make reading those bad comics any better.

It just makes me wish we had 41 issues of Harbinger that actually stuck to the VALIANT style of Harbinger 1.

[ManofTheAtom]

I didn't mind that they went there with Faith when they did, I just wish we had seen more and something more coherent.

For sure. If they'd made the effort to actually tie it in to Rai 0 and explain it better it could have worked.

Harada's manipulations.

I like the explanation that Phil messed up reality so bad that the farther away we get from A&O the more crazy things get and the more 'comic booky' the world becomes.

That's a good in-story way to explain everything post-Chaos effect (including X-O/IM, VH2, U2K, multiverses, etc, etc.), and that at least makes the entire Valiant library make some sort of 'sense' (for me anyway). And it actually makes Erica look right during Unity in hindsight. But it still doesn't make reading those bad comics any better.

It just makes me wish we had 41 issues of Harbinger that actually stuck to the VALIANT style of Harbinger 1.

Not a fan of that particular explanation, though. I'm satisfied with the idea that Harada captured Peter and manipulated him to turn him into his enforcer, then his future self snapped him back to who he really is. That works better for me.

As for Harbinger, sure, it would have been preferable to have a more consistent narrative, but, overall, I have no complaints in the multiple directions. They could have been much worse. None of them went full X-Men, they all stayed relatively grounded throughout.

[Ryan]

Not a fan of that particular explanation, though. I'm satisfied with the idea that Harada captured Peter and manipulated him to turn him into his enforcer, then his future self snapped him back to who he really is. That works better for me.

As for Harbinger, sure, it would have been preferable to have a more consistent narrative, but, overall, I have no complaints in the multiple directions. They could have been much worse. None of them went full X-Men, they all stayed relatively grounded throughout.

Right on. I guess that's why we basically disagree on the value of post-CE VH1. If it were up to me (in an actual VH1 continuation), I'd probably ignore or find a way around most of everything post-CE (or earlier). Not only from my own taste and what I consider fits in to 'true Valiant', but also just from the fan reaction at the time (everyone stopped reading) and the fan reaction on this site from 2002-10 or so.

Certainly there are plenty of ways that the post-CE stuff could be worked in to a new VH1, but I just don't see the value in it. Most fans either weren't reading by then or have a poor opinion of that whole era, for good reason.

As for Harbinger, that's cool to know. I haven't read many of the late issues and I was looking for opinions on how the different eras compare, I'm glad that Pete was brought back. I wish A-ien would release all the original Vh1 series in big compendiums.

[ManofTheAtom]

Not a fan of that particular explanation, though. I'm satisfied with the idea that Harada captured Peter and manipulated him to turn him into his enforcer, then his future self snapped him back to who he really is. That works better for me.

As for Harbinger, sure, it would have been preferable to have a more consistent narrative, but, overall, I have no complaints in the multiple directions. They could have been much worse. None of them went full X-Men, they all stayed relatively grounded throughout.

Right on. I guess that's why we basically disagree on the value of post-CE VH1. If it were up to me (in an actual VH1 continuation), I'd probably ignore or find a way around most of everything post-CE (or earlier). Not only from my own taste and what I consider fits in to 'true Valiant', but also just from the fan reaction at the time (everyone stopped reading) and the fan reaction on this site from 2002-10 or so.

Certainly there are plenty of ways that the post-CE stuff could be worked in to a new VH1, but I just don't see the value in it. Most fans either weren't reading by then or have a poor opinion of that whole era, for good reason.

As for Harbinger, that's cool to know. I haven't read many of the late issues and I was looking for opinions on how the different eras compare, I'm glad that Pete was brought back. I wish A-ien would release all the original Vh1 series in big compendiums.

Cool.

[magnusr]

Help me remember. Isn't there an article or interview where Shooter says that Valiant choose to radically change Harbinger so it didn't stay too close to a movie treatment that was Shooter's personal copyright?

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

Help me remember. Isn't there an article or interview where Shooter says that Valiant choose to radically change Harbinger so it didn't stay too close to a movie treatment that was Shooter's personal copyright?

/Magnus

Don't recall.

[Ryan]

Help me remember. Isn't there an article or interview where Shooter says that Valiant choose to radically change Harbinger so it didn't stay too close to a movie treatment that was Shooter's personal copyright?

/Magnus

I don't remember, but that would make some sense. Shooter has a Harbinger script that predates Valiant with Pete as the main character.

[The Harbinger]

I haven't read the post-Unity Harbinger in forever, and some I never read. Wondering what peoples' opinions are on these, if anyone is still interested.

Shooter era 1-7
Unity 8-9
Lapham era 0,10-13
Fontenot era pt.1 14-25
Fontenot era pt. 2 26-38 ('New Harbingers')
Vanhook era 39-41

Shooter era is great, been done multiple times.

Latham had some strong issues like #12 and HARD Corps

Fontenot era 1 I enjoy, but has a good amount of filler too. Screen is awesome though and Harbinger #25 is an iconic issue.

26-38 is horrendous. Characters are unlikable, and maybe the first iteration of Valiant zaniness that haunted the DMG era (and some of VEI). The team is pretty ineffective and can’t really change the world the way Pete could, and at all times stand no threat to Harada.

39-41 at least brought back Spike, but mostly they had no idea where they wanted to take the story. Anvil’s dead, and nobody cares and it’s never revisited ever again

[ManofTheAtom]

I do remember liking when the focus shifted to the kids as students at the foundation.

[Chiclo]

I do remember liking when the focus shifted to the kids as students at the foundation.

Kind of like how Daniel-san was not actually the Karate Kid.

[ManofTheAtom]

I do remember liking when the focus shifted to the kids as students at the foundation.

Kind of like how Daniel-san was not actually the Karate Kid.

Interesting.

[Ryan]

Shooter era is great, been done multiple times.

Latham had some strong issues like #12 and HARD Corps

Fontenot era 1 I enjoy, but has a good amount of filler too. Screen is awesome though and Harbinger #25 is an iconic issue.

26-38 is horrendous. Characters are unlikable, and maybe the first iteration of Valiant zaniness that haunted the DMG era (and some of VEI). The team is pretty ineffective and can’t really change the world the way Pete could, and at all times stand no threat to Harada.

39-41 at least brought back Spike, but mostly they had no idea where they wanted to take the story. Anvil’s dead, and nobody cares and it’s never revisited ever again

That's pretty much what I remember about 26-38. It was like the Doors without Jim Morrison.

That's not to say Harbinger can't be interesting without Pete. It could be done. It just wasn't done here.

[ManofTheAtom]

To be fair, the protagonist changed from Peter to Faith (the third member of the resistance originally introduced).

It made sense to push Peter aside after Harbinger #25, while Kris would not have been able to carry the series (it is unfortunate that she was pretty much entirely written out of the universe as a whole).

I had no problem with Faith as the new main character, or her becoming a student at the Foundation. It provided readers with an inside look into the world of the villain. Likewise, I had no problem with the reveal about Peter becoming the Harbinger. It was unexpected.

[The Harbinger]

To be fair, the protagonist changed from Peter to Faith (the third member of the resistance originally introduced).

It made sense to push Peter aside after Harbinger #25, while Kris would not have been able to carry the series (it is unfortunate that she was pretty much entirely written out of the universe as a whole).

I had no problem with Faith as the new main character, or her becoming a student at the Foundation. It provided readers with an inside look into the world of the villain. Likewise, I had no problem with the reveal about Peter becoming the Harbinger. It was unexpected.

As an idea, it’s not a bad. However it’s crazy to think Zephyr would ever be allowed around Eggbreakrrs and wouldn’t be killed immediately along with anyone that helped her.

A lot of those stories were just terrible and went nowhere. Useless for Chaos Effect, Hard Corps suddenly deciding not to assassinate Harada, the dog breaking 2 dudes into a high security facility before Valiant itself realizes none of this makes sense.

Only issue that really mattered from that run was Stronghold/Livewire. Everything else was very, very bad

[ManofTheAtom]

To be fair, the protagonist changed from Peter to Faith (the third member of the resistance originally introduced).

It made sense to push Peter aside after Harbinger #25, while Kris would not have been able to carry the series (it is unfortunate that she was pretty much entirely written out of the universe as a whole).

I had no problem with Faith as the new main character, or her becoming a student at the Foundation. It provided readers with an inside look into the world of the villain. Likewise, I had no problem with the reveal about Peter becoming the Harbinger. It was unexpected.

As an idea, it’s not a bad. However it’s crazy to think Zephyr would ever be allowed around Eggbreakrrs and wouldn’t be killed immediately along with anyone that helped her.

A lot of those stories were just terrible and went nowhere. Useless for Chaos Effect, Hard Corps suddenly deciding not to assassinate Harada, the dog breaking 2 dudes into a high security facility before Valiant itself realizes none of this makes sense.

Only issue that really mattered from that run was Stronghold/Livewire. Everything else was very, very bad

I don't recall offhand how they handled Faith becoming a student, but I recall not having a problem with it. Narratively it made sense in that it allowed her to recruit new members of the resistance while, at the same time, helped her hone her own skills.

[ManofTheAtom]

The question becomes, where could Harbinger as a series have gone after the final battle between Harada and Peter in issue 25?

Is Harada outed? Does the Foundation fall? Did the good guys win? Does Pete just dust himself off and walk off into the sunset with his friends?

The VEI version sort of did a version of that, in that, yes, Harada was outed and, to a point, the Foundation did fall. He had to move to another part of the world to continue his plans using different methods than he had before (Imperium) and, for that series, it worked really well.

In VH-1, however, they decided to keep his public façade as a good guy and shifted the focus from Peter and his resistance attacking the Foundation from the outside to Faith attacking it from the inside while recruiting members of a new resistance movement.

I for one liked seeing an expansion of the inner workings of the Foundation and the "villains" that follow Harada's vision. It was a good counterbalance to the previous run showing how Peter's side of the conflict worked.

Ultimately, I think what both VEI and VH-1 did after Harada and Pete had their decisive battle was equally valid.

Both developed new characters on Harada's side of the war (the ones VEI introduced in Imperium may have been less grounded than the ones introduced in VH-1 when Faith joined the school, but they were generally more interesting) which expanded the world building and the narrative moving forward.