VH-2 invalidated

[Chiclo]

It was those rules that made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel, while it was deviating from them that ultimately ruined what VALIANT/VH-1 was.

No one is arguing against that. You keep shifting the goal posts.

They all "count". It's a matter of interpretation.

Is it really "magic" or is it something that can be quantified?

Through effort, most of it can be.

That's exactly what I'm saying. With the parameters of Vh1 'science' laid out as you have, anything can be hand wavey explained through pseudo-science (BS). Phil changed physics, alien tech, time travel, etc.

That extends for everything in VH2 and VEI as well.

No, because when we get to VH 2 we have to deal with Marvel crap that doesn't fit with VALIANT's tone and style.

For starters, prior to VH 2 it had already been established that the Marvel Universe is entirely fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Phil read Thor comics, Faith read X-Men comics, and a kid in the 41st Century read a Thing vs Superman comic.

Earlier in this thread, you lamented that comics are not taken seriously as a medium. There are both biographical and historical comics that depict real people like Lady Gaga and George Washington and Lazaro Cardenas. Just because an individual appears in a comic does not make that individual fictional.

Buddhists would say that all these worlds are every bit as real as VH1 on some level - even made-up worlds like VH2, Marvel, and this one we are in now.

[ManofTheAtom]

It was those rules that made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel, while it was deviating from them that ultimately ruined what VALIANT/VH-1 was.

No one is arguing against that. You keep shifting the goal posts.

They all "count". It's a matter of interpretation.

Is it really "magic" or is it something that can be quantified?

Through effort, most of it can be.

That's exactly what I'm saying. With the parameters of Vh1 'science' laid out as you have, anything can be hand wavey explained through pseudo-science (BS). Phil changed physics, alien tech, time travel, etc.

That extends for everything in VH2 and VEI as well.

No, because when we get to VH 2 we have to deal with Marvel crap that doesn't fit with VALIANT's tone and style.

For starters, prior to VH 2 it had already been established that the Marvel Universe is entirely fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Phil read Thor comics, Faith read X-Men comics, and a kid in the 41st Century read a Thing vs Superman comic.

Earlier in this thread, you lamented that comics are not taken seriously as a medium. There are both biographical and historical comics that depict real people like Lady Gaga and George Washington and Lazaro Cardenas. Just because an individual appears in a comic does not make that individual fictional.

Buddhists would say that all these worlds are every bit as real as VH1 on some level - even made-up worlds like VH2, Marvel, and this one we are in now.

The Marvel heroes are NOT real in the VALIANT Universe, so comparing the two is a false equivalency.

When Faith first met Solar she said, "There used to be comics about Doctor Solar a way long time ago! What are you doing here, in real life?"

Had Faith appeared in X-O Manowar/Iron Man, she would have reacted EXACTLY the same way to meeting Iron Man or any other Marvel character for the simple reason that those characters are as fictional in the VALIANT Universe as Gold Key's Doctor Solar.

You don't question her assertion that Doctor Solar was a fictional character that shouldn't exist in the real world, but do question her and Phil's references to Marvel characters being equally fictional. Why?

[Ryan]

Who said anything about fans?

I just said that had Shooter stayed he might have provided an explanation for how Harbinger abilities work. Just because no one else did after he left does not mean that no one in the future ever will.

You're the fan basing your argument on your own fan speculation about what might have been in the comics or might one day be in the comics. I'm talking about what's actually presented in the comics.

If the argument is able to include anything that could have possibly been written by Jim Shooter in the past, present, or future then the debate has no real parameters. Any fantasy is valid.

If that's the case, then I think you should just save it for your zine, right after the chapter on how "VH2 is a Faith Herbert fan comic".

[ManofTheAtom]

Who said anything about fans?

I just said that had Shooter stayed he might have provided an explanation for how Harbinger abilities work. Just because no one else did after he left does not mean that no one in the future ever will.

You're the fan basing your argument on your own fan speculation about what might have been in the comics or might one day be in the comics. I'm talking about what's actually presented in the comics.

If the argument is able to include anything that could have possibly been written by Jim Shooter in the past, present, or future then the debate has no real parameters. Any fantasy is valid.

If that's the case, then I think you should just save it for your zine, right after the chapter on how "VH2 is a Faith Herbert fan comic".

Stay on topic...

In "The Island of Doctor Moreau", the Beast folk worshipped Moreau as a deity in spite of the fact that he used science and not magic to create them.

A plausible explanation for Harbingers and immortals could very well involve Solar's meddling with the physical nature of the universe, but be confused as divine work by those who, like the Beast Folk do Moreau, might believe he is a God.

Mothergod's followers did, even though there was nothing divine about her either.

[Chiclo]

You don't question her assertion that Doctor Solar was a fictional character that shouldn't exist in the real world, but do question her and Phil's references to Marvel characters being equally fictional. Why?

Faith thought that Doctor Solar should not be real and yet, there was a Doctor Solar, real enough.

I don’t think Faith can say for certain that individuals don’t exist. Solar might be in a better position but he still has human limits to his intellect and new to his powers and much has not come to his attention.

Iron Man and the cosmic cube could have been accidentally created by Solar in the same way he accidentally created the Harbingers and Anni-Padda brothers. Maybe he made them later? Maybe he accidentally made the crossover possible to the parallel Earth.

[Chiclo]

Who said anything about fans?

I just said that had Shooter stayed he might have provided an explanation for how Harbinger abilities work. Just because no one else did after he left does not mean that no one in the future ever will.

You're the fan basing your argument on your own fan speculation about what might have been in the comics or might one day be in the comics. I'm talking about what's actually presented in the comics.

If the argument is able to include anything that could have possibly been written by Jim Shooter in the past, present, or future then the debate has no real parameters. Any fantasy is valid.

If that's the case, then I think you should just save it for your zine, right after the chapter on how "VH2 is a Faith Herbert fan comic".

Stay on topic...

In "The Island of Doctor Moreau", the Beast folk worshipped Moreau as a deity in spite of the fact that he used science and not magic to create them.

A plausible explanation for Harbingers and immortals could very well involve Solar's meddling with the physical nature of the universe, but be confused as divine work by those who, like the Beast Folk do Moreau, might believe he is a God.

Mothergod's followers did, even though there was nothing divine about her either.

How are Phil and Erica not gods in a comic book sense? Their powers of creation exceed those of characters like Thor and Darkseid.

[ManofTheAtom]

Faith thought that Doctor Solar should not be real and yet, there was a Doctor Solar, real enough.

I don’t think Faith can say for certain that individuals don’t exist. Solar might be in a better position but he still has human limits to his intellect and new to his powers and much has not come to his attention.

Iron Man and the cosmic cube could have been accidentally created by Solar in the same way he accidentally created the Harbingers and Anni-Padda brothers. Maybe he made them later? Maybe he accidentally made the crossover possible to the parallel Earth.

Except that that is NOT the Doctor Phillip Solar from the Gold Key comics Faith read. That is Phillip Seleski, a real person.

It is plausible that the Marvel characters X-O Manowar met were all created by Solar. That is a valid argument.

[ManofTheAtom]

How are Phil and Erica not gods in a comic book sense? Their powers of creation exceed those of characters like Thor and Darkseid.

Divinity is a matter of perspective.

It is the same principle as Clarke's third law, but applied to power rather than technology.

"Any sufficiently powerful individual is indistinguishable from a God".

[syzhang28]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

[ManofTheAtom]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

[Chiclo]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

This is an example of an ad hominem attack.

For the record, that is not a comment on the veracity of the claim.

[lorddunlow]

This thread feels like the old good times...

[Chiclo]

Did that hippy just call me old?

[ManofTheAtom]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

This is an example of an ad hominem attack.

For the record, that is not a comment on the veracity of the claim.

He set himself up for it...

[ManofTheAtom]

This thread feels like the old good times...

It is what I was asked back here to do, heh...

[ManofTheAtom]

Did that hippy just call me old?

[Ryan]

A plausible explanation for Harbingers and immortals could very well involve Solar's meddling with the physical nature of the universe,

When you have to introduce "could be" into an argument, its no longer based on fact but on pure speculation. It could have been space aliens altering reality with 'science so advanced it seems like magic'. It could have been that Valiant was created by the GK Solar artist using magic ink supplied by the devil (oh that one was actually written by Shooter). It could have been that Valiant was going to be revealed as a microverse existing inside of Faith Herbert's belly button.

If we really want to know what was intended originally, that was the whole reason behind my fanzine project "The Secrets of the Valiant Universe Fanzine". I had intended to try and find all these things out while the people who created Valiant are still around. That includes trying to reconstruct the original version of Rai 0.

But there doesn't seem to be much interest on here for those answers anymore, and I don't have the resources or connections myself to get those interviews or get that material.

[Chiclo]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

This is an example of an ad hominem attack.

For the record, that is not a comment on the veracity of the claim.

He set himself up for it...

An excuse for the behaviour but not a validation for your argument.

[ManofTheAtom]

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

This is an example of an ad hominem attack.

For the record, that is not a comment on the veracity of the claim.

He set himself up for it...

An excuse for the behaviour but not a validation for your argument.

There was no argument. He came at me with an aggressive response and I turned it back on him using his own words.

[ManofTheAtom]

A plausible explanation for Harbingers and immortals could very well involve Solar's meddling with the physical nature of the universe,

When you have to introduce "could be" into an argument, its no longer based on fact but on pure speculation. It could have been space aliens altering reality with 'science so advanced it seems like magic'. It could have been that Valiant was created by the GK Solar artist using magic ink supplied by the devil (oh that one was actually written by Shooter). It could have been that Valiant was going to be revealed as a microverse existing inside of Faith Herbert's belly button.

If we really want to know what was intended originally, that was the whole reason behind my fanzine project "The Secrets of the Valiant Universe Fanzine". I had intended to try and find all these things out while the people who created Valiant are still around. That includes trying to reconstruct the original version of Rai 0.

But there doesn't seem to be much interest on here for those answers anymore, and I don't have the resources or connections myself to get those interviews or get that material.

Try Facebook. Connect with Shooter and Jackson on there. Vanhook too.

[Ryan]

A plausible explanation for Harbingers and immortals could very well involve Solar's meddling with the physical nature of the universe,

When you have to introduce "could be" into an argument, its no longer based on fact but on pure speculation. It could have been space aliens altering reality with 'science so advanced it seems like magic'. It could have been that Valiant was created by the GK Solar artist using magic ink supplied by the devil (oh that one was actually written by Shooter). It could have been that Valiant was going to be revealed as a microverse existing inside of Faith Herbert's belly button.

If we really want to know what was intended originally, that was the whole reason behind my fanzine project "The Secrets of the Valiant Universe Fanzine". I had intended to try and find all these things out while the people who created Valiant are still around. That includes trying to reconstruct the original version of Rai 0.

But there doesn't seem to be much interest on here for those answers anymore, and I don't have the resources or connections myself to get those interviews or get that material.

Try Facebook. Connect with Shooter and Jackson on there. Vanhook too.

Their fan pages? Well either way most of the people who were interested in that kind of information seem to have left or don't post anymore.

The original Rai 0 is the linchpin for how much the direction of the narrative changed after Shooter left. There are around 7 penciled pages that can be found online in low resolution. If I could get the script or notes we'd be cooking, but no one I've asked has had that or answered.

I would also like to know what this version of the character would have been like:

Screenshot_20230113_064713.png

Jim Shooter and I went to dinner and worked on fleshing out his character... The character was to be a superior fighter with all types of weapons and no super powers. All of the arms and other equipment were not ficticious but based on real weapons. -Don Perlin

[ManofTheAtom]

Anyway...

In one scenario, Phil Seleski could have had a massive schizophrenic attack that results in his conjuring up the entire fully formed Marvel Universe out of his head like he did Doctor Solar in Second Death, The Destroyer in Afraid of The Darque, and the Explorer in Rai #0/Deathmate.

This faux Marvel Universe could exist in its own separate pocket universe within the larger VALIANT Universe, possibly within Unreality like the Lost Land.

In another scenario (the one I'd prefer), Phil purposely decides to create the Marvel Universe from the comics he read as a kid the same way he created Earth 2 in Jurgens' Brave New World.

Like in the first scenario, this would involve his entering Unreality and creating a pocket universe where he can experiment the way he did when he traveled to another solar system and changed an alien world into a replica of Earth. This would be the same experiment but on a cosmic scale and specifically intended to recreate the Marvel Universe.

It is from this pocket universe that the Iron Man X-O Manowar met came from.

Phil screwing up again.

This scenario would line up with my suggestion that Loremaster from Unity 2000 is another split of Solar. It could have been him who conducted this experiment.

On another note, notice his reference to his manipulating the gene pool of Earth 2 that brought about the Specials. He could have done the same on Earth 1 to create Harbingers, Geomancers, immortals, and the like. They just didn't get around to explaining.

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[ManofTheAtom]

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[ManofTheAtom]

A plausible explanation for Harbingers and immortals could very well involve Solar's meddling with the physical nature of the universe,

When you have to introduce "could be" into an argument, its no longer based on fact but on pure speculation. It could have been space aliens altering reality with 'science so advanced it seems like magic'. It could have been that Valiant was created by the GK Solar artist using magic ink supplied by the devil (oh that one was actually written by Shooter). It could have been that Valiant was going to be revealed as a microverse existing inside of Faith Herbert's belly button.

If we really want to know what was intended originally, that was the whole reason behind my fanzine project "The Secrets of the Valiant Universe Fanzine". I had intended to try and find all these things out while the people who created Valiant are still around. That includes trying to reconstruct the original version of Rai 0.

But there doesn't seem to be much interest on here for those answers anymore, and I don't have the resources or connections myself to get those interviews or get that material.

Try Facebook. Connect with Shooter and Jackson on there. Vanhook too.

Their fan pages? Well either way most of the people who were interested in that kind of information seem to have left or don't post anymore.

The original Rai 0 is the linchpin for how much the direction of the narrative changed after Shooter left. There are around 7 penciled pages that can be found online in low resolution. If I could get the script or notes we'd be cooking, but no one I've asked has had that or answered.

I would also like to know what this version of the character would have been like:

Screenshot_20230113_064713.png

Jim Shooter and I went to dinner and worked on fleshing out his character... The character was to be a superior fighter with all types of weapons and no super powers. All of the arms and other equipment were not ficticious but based on real weapons. -Don Perlin

Far as I know they are their personal pages. I've been connected to Jackson and Vanhook there for a LONG time, and Shooter recently accepted my friend request.

That looks interesting, but I think the finished version worked out better, heh.

[Ryan]

Far as I know they are their personal pages. I've been connected to Jackson and Vanhook there for a LONG time, and Shooter recently accepted my friend request.

That looks interesting, but I think the finished version worked out better, heh.

That's interesting because that's the split when the 'Marvelization' of Valiant really began. No more real-time, no more 'hard science', casual time travel, necromantic magic, etc. etc.

Your theory is that VH2 is when Valiant stopped being Valiant and became something else because it stopped following rules, I'm saying if that's the criteria for invalidating parts of Valiant history, then it should really begin right there at post-Unity.