VH 1 Can Never Come Back

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Chiclo »

Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:06:56 pm
Chiclo wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:46:21 pm This thread is not claiming that VH1 does not matter. This thread claims that VH1 cannot be revived in print.

You can never enter the same stream twice.
I also heard don't cross the streams. :P

If we're doing semantics, then the whole thread is flawed because there's plenty of conceivable ways that VH1 could come back, even at the least through fan fiction.
You are interfering with MotA’s recovery with that kind of talk!

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Ryan »

Chiclo wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 9:54:20 pm You are interfering with MotA’s recovery with that kind of talk!
:lol: Ok that's fair.

I just think the Valiant brand is at a low point right now. For the fans that are still around, and still care at all, we should try to find the things that bring us together and not divide ourselves based on which era we like more or the minutiae of obscure continuity.

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by magnusr »

Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 10:28:29 pm I just think the Valiant brand is at a low point right now.
A low point means it can only get better.

/Magnus

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:04:14 pm Your thread proclaims that VH1 can never come back because VEI is so superior
That is not what it says.
:atomic: Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... :atomic:

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Ryan »

magnusr wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:49:32 pm
Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 10:28:29 pm I just think the Valiant brand is at a low point right now.
A low point means it can only get better.

/Magnus
Appreciate the optimism. Unfortunately that's not what history tells us. Truly enduring media franchises are much more the exception than the rule. The vast majority of niche fanbases lose steam and totally disappear over time. That's what everyone who cares about Valiant should be trying to prevent, not bicker or snipe at each other :twocents:

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Ryan »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:15:17 am
Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:04:14 pm Your thread proclaims that VH1 can never come back because VEI is so superior
That is not what it says.
Ok then explain your thesis more succinctly.

Is it that VH1 can never come back because they wrote themselves into a corner if you take every comic as gospel and interpret them in the way you interpret them?

Yet if you try to read every VEI comic from 2012 until now there's no way all of these fit into the same continuity. There are so many inconsistencies and entire series that have to be ignored to make it work. Yet it's no big deal, because I guess nobody on here is reading them? Or just not held to the same standard?

I don't get the point of this thread. There's no debate going on, VEI is continuing in current comics as we speak and VH1 remains a dead universe for the old fans. We should all come together to support the current effort, not take unnecessary shots at people who prefer a different era.

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:55:11 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:15:17 am
Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:04:14 pm Your thread proclaims that VH1 can never come back because VEI is so superior
That is not what it says.
Ok then explain your thesis more succinctly.

Is it that VH1 can never come back because they wrote themselves into a corner if you take every comic as gospel and interpret them in the way you interpret them?

Yet if you try to read every VEI comic from 2012 until now there's no way all of these fit into the same continuity. There are so many inconsistencies and entire series that have to be ignored to make it work. Yet it's no big deal, because I guess nobody on here is reading them? Or just not held to the same standard?

I don't get the point of this thread. There's no debate going on, VEI is continuing in current comics as we speak and VH1 remains a dead universe for the old fans. We should all come together to support the current effort, not take unnecessary shots at people who prefer a different era.
They didn't paint themselves into a corner. Rai #0 is as valid as any other comic they published, and there is no reason to ignore it. Poor editorial decisions that followed, such as VH 2 and Unity 2000, are what needs to be explained away.

if VH 1 had returned in 2012, it would have been without Jack and Darque. If it had either or both then it wouldn't be VH 1, it would be something else. And if it's going to be something else then they might as well reboot, like they did so they can use those characters.

The VEI version of Rai #0 jumped ahead in places so they wouldn't limit themselves even as it catalogued the story that was rather than the story that will be.
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Ryan »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:37:09 am They didn't paint themselves into a corner. Rai #0 is as valid as any other comic they published, and there is no reason to ignore it. Poor editorial decisions that followed, such as VH 2 and Unity 2000, are what needs to be explained away.
You interpret it as gospel that can't be contradicted, despite multiple contradictions within the VH1 comics. I interpret it exactly how it's presented, as a story being told in 4001 by Rokland Tate. A story that has errors and isn't a definitive history of Vh1.
if VH 1 had returned in 2012, it would have been without Jack and Darque. If it had either or both then it wouldn't be VH 1, it would be something else.
In your interpretation only. In fact, VEI had actually commissioned a story by Bob Hall that used a time arc to save Jack from jumping off the building in #43 and brought him in to the present day. That story was written by Bob but was never published as VEI decided to go full reboot.
And if it's going to be something else then they might as well reboot, like they did so they can use those characters.
Your opinion, not definitive fact. Plenty of creative ways to use the best of VH1 without fully rebooting. Even if, to you, it's not 'really' VH1.

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:09:18 am You interpret it as gospel that can't be contradicted, despite multiple contradictions within the VH1 comics. I interpret it exactly how it's presented, as a story being told in 4001 by Rokland Tate. A story that has errors and isn't a definitive history of Vh1.
Nothing in VH 1 contradicted Rai #0 until VH 2.
In your interpretation only. In fact, VEI had actually commissioned a story by Bob Hall that used a time arc to save Jack from jumping off the building in #43 and brought him in to the present day. That story was written by Bob but was never published as VEI decided to go full reboot.
That was a good decision. There are much better ways to solve the ending of 43 than that which don't contradict Rai #0.
Your opinion, not definitive fact. Plenty of creative ways to use the best of VH1 without fully rebooting. Even if, to you, it's not 'really' VH1.
Any interpretation of VH 1 that ignores Rai #0 would, by definition, not be VH 1.
:atomic: Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... :atomic:

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

My mistake, the conversations about new comics are in the VALIANT Published Issue Discussions sub-forum, not the registered members section.
:atomic: Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... :atomic:

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Chiclo »

magnusr wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:49:32 pm
Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 10:28:29 pm I just think the Valiant brand is at a low point right now.
A low point means it can only get better.

/Magnus
I dunno, if my life has taught me anything, it is that even most rock bottoms have a basement.

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by magnusr »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:13:29 am Nothing in VH 1 contradicted Rai #0 until VH 2.
Well, they were on the limit. For instance the scene where Aric and Turok don't want to help did happen, but Aric immediately changed his mind and did help...

/Magnus

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:59:22 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:13:29 am Nothing in VH 1 contradicted Rai #0 until VH 2.
Well, they were on the limit. For instance the scene where Aric and Turok don't want to help did happen, but Aric immediately changed his mind and did help...

/Magnus
Which shows that things need not have happened exactly as shown, but it's not really a contradiction. More like, missing information. Game of broken telephone.
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

I was just reminded of X-O Manowar #68 contradicting Rai #0, as does Aric killing Darque.

Since that was done to establish VH 2, though, it can be dismissed as easily as the rest.
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by magnusr »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:08:44 am I was just reminded of X-O Manowar #68 contradicting Rai #0, as does Aric killing Darque.
Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:15:59 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:08:44 am I was just reminded of X-O Manowar #68 contradicting Rai #0, as does Aric killing Darque.
Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus
Sure, but that would be anti-climactic. Like saying that Shadowman dying in 99 is not the same as Jack dying in 99. That the lines got crossed and people assumed it was Jack who died in 99 because in 97 they found out he was Shadowman, but in reality it was someone else.

That's how it could play out, but is it what people want to see?
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by magnusr »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:22:22 am Like saying that Shadowman dying in 99 is not the same as Jack dying in 99.
Good example.
That's how it could play out, but is it what people want to see?
If it's very well made, then it'd be ok by me.

/Magnus

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:25:34 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:22:22 am Like saying that Shadowman dying in 99 is not the same as Jack dying in 99.
Good example.
That's how it could play out, but is it what people want to see?
If it's very well made, then it'd be ok by me.

/Magnus
Truthfully, I would not opposite it. It would just have to be a better Shadowman than Michael Leroi.
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:08:44 am I was just reminded of X-O Manowar #68 contradicting Rai #0, as does Aric killing Darque.

Since that was done to establish VH 2, though, it can be dismissed as easily as the rest.
Post-BQ is full of them. Off the top of my head Ax also died, well before he dies in Rai 0 in 2028.

Once you start dismissing events that happened in actual Vh1 comics, aren't you doing the same thing as someone who would dismiss events from Rai 0? What makes one more important than the other? Other than your own opinion?

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:58:58 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:08:44 am I was just reminded of X-O Manowar #68 contradicting Rai #0, as does Aric killing Darque.

Since that was done to establish VH 2, though, it can be dismissed as easily as the rest.
Post-BQ is full of them. Off the top of my head Ax also died, well before he dies in Rai 0 in 2028.

Once you start dismissing events that happened in actual Vh1 comics, aren't you doing the same thing as someone who would dismiss events from Rai 0? What makes one more important than the other? Other than your own opinion?
Ax dying was in 66 I believe.

Dismissing them it's not a matter of opinion, but rather that their existence was to serve a purpose that is not connected to VH 1. In the case of the last three issues of X-O, it was to serve Nicieza's reboot.
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Ryan »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:03:42 pm
Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:58:58 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:08:44 am I was just reminded of X-O Manowar #68 contradicting Rai #0, as does Aric killing Darque.

Since that was done to establish VH 2, though, it can be dismissed as easily as the rest.
Post-BQ is full of them. Off the top of my head Ax also died, well before he dies in Rai 0 in 2028.

Once you start dismissing events that happened in actual Vh1 comics, aren't you doing the same thing as someone who would dismiss events from Rai 0? What makes one more important than the other? Other than your own opinion?
Ax dying was in 66 I believe.

Dismissing them it's not a matter of opinion, but rather that their existence was to serve a purpose that is not connected to VH 1. In the case of the last three issues of X-O, it was to serve Nicieza's reboot.
Where does it say that anywhere? In the comics or in interviews?

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

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magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:15:59 am Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus
Exactly. Really the only line in Rai 0 that's under any scrutiny is this one:
Screenshot 2024-02-28 120932.png
No mention of Jack dying or Master Darque at all. Just 'ridding humanity of the Darque Power'. Shadowman had already been established as a lineage hero so 'the dark vested hero called Shadowman' could be Maxim or someone else. Darque could be alive and well with no contradictions.

So this is the reason VH1 Can Never Come Back? :lol:
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

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Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:12:34 pm
magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:15:59 am Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus
Exactly. Really the only line in Rai 0 that's under any scrutiny is this one:

Screenshot 2024-02-28 120932.png

No mention of Jack dying or Master Darque at all. Just 'ridding humanity of the Darque Power'. Shadowman had already been established as a lineage hero so 'the dark vested hero called Shadowman' could be Maxim or someone else. Darque could be alive and well with no contradictions.

So this is the reason VH1 Can Never Come Back? :lol:
It could, sure.
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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by Ryan »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:15:10 pm
Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:12:34 pm
magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:15:59 am Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus
Exactly. Really the only line in Rai 0 that's under any scrutiny is this one:

Screenshot 2024-02-28 120932.png

No mention of Jack dying or Master Darque at all. Just 'ridding humanity of the Darque Power'. Shadowman had already been established as a lineage hero so 'the dark vested hero called Shadowman' could be Maxim or someone else. Darque could be alive and well with no contradictions.

So this is the reason VH1 Can Never Come Back? :lol:
It could, sure.
To me, concerns about the minutiae of specific continuity or whether something is called Vh1, Vh4 or whatever isn't that important. What I'd like to see most is more respect for the original universe from the VEI people and a true passionate care for the characters/world from the people making the comics. That would go a long way for me.

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Re: VH 1 Can Never Come Back

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:27:15 pm
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:15:10 pm
Ryan wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:12:34 pm
magnusr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:15:59 am Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus
Exactly. Really the only line in Rai 0 that's under any scrutiny is this one:

Screenshot 2024-02-28 120932.png

No mention of Jack dying or Master Darque at all. Just 'ridding humanity of the Darque Power'. Shadowman had already been established as a lineage hero so 'the dark vested hero called Shadowman' could be Maxim or someone else. Darque could be alive and well with no contradictions.

So this is the reason VH1 Can Never Come Back? :lol:
It could, sure.
To me, concerns about the minutiae of specific continuity or whether something is called Vh1, Vh4 or whatever isn't that important. What I'd like to see most is more respect for the original universe from the VEI people and a true passionate care for the characters/world from the people making the comics. That would go a long way for me.
I don't think we've seen anything less since VEI started.
:atomic: Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... :atomic:


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