VH 1 Can Never Come Back

[ManofTheAtom]

When Ronald. D. Moore rebooted Battlestar Galactica, fans of the original argued that it should have instead been a continuation of the original, to which he responded that that would have required also including Galactica 1980, in which the colonials found Earth.

For VALIANT, bringing VH 1 back would HAVE to include respecting the events depicted in Rai #0, such as the death of Jack Boniface and the end of Master Darque and the Darque power in 1999, the death of Archer, his marriage to Flamingo, and Geoff becoming a grandfather in 2020, and the upcoming death of Bloodshot in 2028.

VH 1 in 2024 -- or even in 2012 -- would not be the VH 1 of the '90s. Any betrayal of Rai #0 would be a betrayal of VALIANT in general, and it would just be fanaticism, favoritism, etc.

For a VH 1 revival to work in 2024 -- or, again, 2012 for that matter -- would require new characters, new concepts, etc. to co-exist alongside which ever original ones from the '90s were still viable today. If whoever publishes VALIANT is going to do that, they might as well reboot so they can have both the original characters in their prime and those new concepts.

The passage of real time was as much an important aspect of VH 1 as tight continuity and a real-world setting.

I was THE loudest voice here who was against a reboot and starting from scratch, but hindsight and all that shows that it really was the only way to go.

Dinesh provided VALIANT with a strong foundation (considerably stronger than VH 2 did), and that's what Alien should build on.

[magnusr]

If whoever publishes VALIANT is going to do that, they might as well reboot so they can have both the original characters in their prime and those new concepts.

While I agree with the post, I think it's worth pointing out that "might as well" is not the same as "should instead".

Dinesh provided VALIANT with a strong foundation (considerably stronger than VH 2 did), and that's what Alien should build on.

Should build on his foundation, yes, but I assume you don't mean they should adher to every VEI/DMG story.

/Magnus

[Rai-fan]

I disagree on two points.

On the one hand, yes - VH1 can never come back - it was a specific product of its place and time, and I'm guessing most fans who were nostalgic for it are like me -- mid-teens at the time, but now into middle age.

VH1 may have technically been around for 6 years (1991-1996), but it burned brightly for only three (1992-1994). In terms of fandom and cultural imprint, that's a really short window.

However, re. fidelity to Rai 0, etc. my disagreement is two-fold:

1) Shooter himself expanded on Shadowman's death in 1999 his VH2 story "The Valiant Deaths of Jack Boniface" - Shadowman vol. 3 # 3-4. A similar (multiversal) approach would work with a reboot, even if the details differed.

2) I read most of Dark Key (also by Shooter). While I felt Turok missed the mark, Shooter's Dark Horse Magnus and Solar runs felt - and read - very much like pre-Unity Magnus and Solar. It was refreshing in a nostalgic way.

And it didn't really work. Because honestly, comics storytelling had moved on, evolved, since the early 1990s.

Even Jim Shooter's brief return to pre-Unity-style stories featuring Magnus and Doctor Solar just...didn't...work in the 21st century.

My point?

I really think you can't go home again.

For me, much of the magic of (pre-Birthquake) VH1 Valiant was in the broader context to what else was on the stands at the time - and associated fandom.

For a brief period in the early 90s the nerds won out - and an upstart indy comic comic not only served as the antithesis of Image, with a focus on story over exaggerated muscular heroes - but also credibly took on Marvel and DC.

And it was glorious.

[ManofTheAtom]

While I agree with the post, I think it's worth pointing out that "might as well" is not the same as "should instead".

VH 1 could have survived past the deaths of those characters with the addition of new ones had it not ever stopped publishing. But since it did, bringing it back in 2012 did work best as a reboot than as a continuation. As the latter, it would have lacked, at the very least, both Shadowman and Darque.

Should build on his foundation, yes, but I assume you don't mean they should adher to every VEI/DMG story.

/Magnus

Yeah, they should. You take the good, you take the bad, and there you have, the facts of life.

Same for VH 1 with Birthquake and Battlestar Galactica with Galactica 1980.

[ManofTheAtom]

1) Shooter himself expanded on Shadowman's death in 1999 his VH2 story "The Valiant Deaths of Jack Boniface" - Shadowman vol. 3 # 3-4. A similar (multiversal) approach would work with a reboot, even if the details differed.

But that was VH 2, though, and as Pelham referred to it, a knock-off of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

For a brief period in the early 90s the nerds won out - and an upstart indy comic comic not only served as the antithesis of Image, with a focus on story over exaggerated muscular heroes - but also credibly took on Marvel and DC.

And it was glorious.

Yep.

[Ryan]

I don't agree that VH1 could never come back, but I do agree that it's not coming back and at this point in time it doesn't make much sense for it to come back.

For VALIANT, bringing VH 1 back would HAVE to include respecting the events depicted in Rai #0, such as the death of Jack Boniface and the end of Master Darque and the Darque power in 1999, the death of Archer, his marriage to Flamingo, and Geoff becoming a grandfather in 2020, and the upcoming death of Bloodshot in 2028.

VH 1 in 2024 -- or even in 2012 -- would not be the VH 1 of the '90s. Any betrayal of Rai #0 would be a betrayal of VALIANT in general, and it would just be fanaticism, favoritism, etc.

I disagree with this, VH1 could easily come back without a strict adherence to Rai 0. It had already been contradicted many times within VH1 itself, not to mention the multiple reboots. It's just comic books, there would be plenty of creative ways to revive the Vh1 characters without being strictly bound to Rai 0.

Dinesh provided VALIANT with a strong foundation (considerably stronger than VH 2 did), and that's what Alien should build on.

That's exactly what they're doing. Not sure why this argument is being made when there are already multiple comics coming out this month by Alien that are directly continuing VEI. Shouldn't you guys be discussing the Valiantines day special and the new Ninjak/X-O comics? You're getting exactly what you want, and yet you don't even buy, read, or discuss them?

[Ryan]

VH1 may have technically been around for 6 years (1991-1996), but it burned brightly for only three (1992-1994). In terms of fandom and cultural imprint, that's a really short window.

Great post. This is true. A very short window of extremely strong fandom and cultural imprint. However that's what Valiant is. None of the reboots or revivals have come close to matching that cultural/fandom impact. So any new Valiant comics should look hard at that time and what caused it.

However, re. fidelity to Rai 0, etc. my disagreement is two-fold:

1) Shooter himself expanded on Shadowman's death in 1999 his VH2 story "The Valiant Deaths of Jack Boniface" - Shadowman vol. 3 # 3-4. A similar (multiversal) approach would work with a reboot, even if the details differed.

2) I read most of Dark Key (also by Shooter). While I felt Turok missed the mark, Shooter's Dark Horse Magnus and Solar runs felt - and read - very much like pre-Unity Magnus and Solar. It was refreshing in a nostalgic way.

And it didn't really work. Because honestly, comics storytelling had moved on, evolved, since the early 1990s.

Even Jim Shooter's brief return to pre-Unity-style stories featuring Magnus and Doctor Solar just...didn't...work in the 21st century.

My point?

I really think you can't go home again.

Good points again. As someone who reveres Shooter, even I think those books fell well short of expectations. It happens a lot though when creators (in comics, film, etc.) go back to a previous hit and try to recapture it. With a few exceptions it usually falls flat.

I think it's more up to the next generation to try and bring forward what were the best parts into the modern era. There's no one formula, but lots of different ways to do that and that's what VEI/DMG/Alien have all been trying to do in their way.

For me, much of the magic of (pre-Birthquake) VH1 Valiant was in the broader context to what else was on the stands at the time - and associated fandom.

For a brief period in the early 90s the nerds won out - and an upstart indy comic comic not only served as the antithesis of Image, with a focus on story over exaggerated muscular heroes - but also credibly took on Marvel and DC.

And it was glorious.

That's a key point. If one examines what Valiant did in 1991-93, it was in complete contrast with all the trends within comics. Ever since Spider-Man 1 sold a kajillion copies in 1990, the trend was toward big, splashy illustrations and less story. Valiant went completely against the grain and brought back 60s style storytelling that was already old in the 90's.

The fact that they weren't just following the comics industry trends is a major factor that made them stand out. Then when people realized the stories actually made sense, that's when the craze started.

[ManofTheAtom]

I disagree with this, VH1 could easily come back without a strict adherence to Rai 0. It had already been contradicted many times within VH1 itself, not to mention the multiple reboots. It's just comic books, there would be plenty of creative ways to revive the Vh1 characters without being strictly bound to Rai 0.

But without the strict adherence to Rai #0, it's no longer VH 1.

That's exactly what they're doing. Not sure why this argument is being made when there are already multiple comics coming out this month by Alien that are directly continuing VEI. Shouldn't you guys be discussing the Valiantines day special and the new Ninjak/X-O comics? You're getting exactly what you want, and yet you don't even buy, read, or discuss them?

I think the discussions are taking place in a different part of this board, not the general discussion area.

[Ryan]

I disagree with this, VH1 could easily come back without a strict adherence to Rai 0. It had already been contradicted many times within VH1 itself, not to mention the multiple reboots. It's just comic books, there would be plenty of creative ways to revive the Vh1 characters without being strictly bound to Rai 0.

But without the strict adherence to Rai #0, it's no longer VH 1.

In your opinion. How do you explain all the VH1 comics that contradict Rai 0?

You wouldn't have to call it VH1 then, it could just be "VH1 style comics with the VH1 versions of the characters". But it's silly to be that rigid about specific aspects of continuity while completely ignoring all the other contradictions and reboots.

I think the discussions are taking place in a different part of this board, not the general discussion area.

Ok, I haven't seen much. You'd think there'd be more with all the love and demand for more VEI comics that supposedly exists.

[ManofTheAtom]

In your opinion. How do you explain all the VH1 comics that contradict Rai 0?

You wouldn't have to call it VH1 then, it could just be "VH1 style comics with the VH1 versions of the characters". But it's silly to be that rigid about specific aspects of continuity while completely ignoring all the other contradictions and reboots.

We've gone through that. VH 2 is easily explained away by the fact that it involved a crossover between X-O Manowar and Iron Man, which is unsupported by what came before it.

It can either be credited to Cresendo's VR machine or, more simply, FAITH FANFIC.

After Unity, Faith wrote a fan fiction crossover between the fictional Marvel characters and the real-world VALIANT heroes.

Ok, I haven't seen much. You'd think there'd be more with all the love and demand for more VEI comics that supposedly exists.

Sure.

[Ryan]

How do you explain all the VH1 comics that contradict Rai 0?

We've gone through that. VH 2 is easily explained away

ok then.

I think I've come around to agreeing with the main point of this thread though. If VH1 = strict adherence to Rai 0 (even though I don't buy that) then yes I would hope that VH1 never comes back.

I agree with Rai-fan "VH1 can never come back - it was a specific product of its place and time". If it were up to me, I would argue for a VH4 that restores many of the characters and much of the history from VH1, but start fresh, not tied to Rai 0 or post-Birthquake.

Everyone on here probably has a different opinion on how they would 'cherry-pick' to create a new VH4. My opinion is mine alone from being a life-long fan and reader, and I share it for discussion purposes, but I don't push it on other people or expect them to adopt it as dogma.

[ManofTheAtom]

How do you explain all the VH1 comics that contradict Rai 0?

We've gone through that. VH 2 is easily explained away

ok then.

I think I've come around to agreeing with the main point of this thread though. If VH1 = strict adherence to Rai 0 (even though I don't buy that) then yes I would hope that VH1 never comes back.

I agree with Rai-fan "VH1 can never come back - it was a specific product of its place and time". If it were up to me, I would argue for a VH4 that restores many of the characters and much of the history from VH1, but start fresh, not tied to Rai 0 or post-Birthquake.

Everyone on here probably has a different opinion on how they would 'cherry-pick' to create a new VH4. My opinion is mine alone from being a life-long fan and reader, and I share it for discussion purposes, but I don't push it on other people or expect them to adopt it as dogma.

Well, VEI restored much of VH-1 with no ties to Rai #0. Just also none of the history either.

[Ryan]

Well, VEI restored much of VH-1 with no ties to Rai #0. Just also none of the history either.

Exactly. VEI chose what they wanted to keep and what to toss.

X-O, Harbinger, Ninjak, A&A based on the VH1 versions - both cosmetically and keeping many of the main story beats while starting fresh and changing many details.

Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, EW - Much more based on VH2 versions with more or less VH1 and new aspects mixed in.

Rai - Using some of the look and names from VH1 but completely new characters and world.

If given the opportunity, I'm sure everyone would choose a different combination of characters and history to keep/change. Personally I would be more of a purist to the original good stuff and keep many of the characters and history from that time.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, VEI restored much of VH-1 with no ties to Rai #0. Just also none of the history either.

Exactly. VEI chose what they wanted to keep and what to toss.

X-O, Harbinger, Ninjak, A&A based on the VH1 versions - both cosmetically and keeping many of the main story beats while starting fresh and changing many details.

Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, EW - Much more based on VH2 versions with more or less VH1 and new aspects mixed in.

Rai - Using some of the look and names from VH1 but completely new characters and world.

If given the opportunity, I'm sure everyone would choose a different combination of characters and history to keep/change. Personally I would be more of a purist to the original good stuff and keep many of the characters and history from that time.

That history would include Rai #0, though, which by 2024 means that Master Darque, Shadowman, and Archer are gone, while the Harbinger kids are in their 50s or so.

[Ryan]

Personally I would be more of a purist to the original good stuff and keep many of the characters and history from that time.

That history would include Rai #0, though, which by 2024 means that Master Darque, Shadowman, and Archer are gone, while the Harbinger kids are in their 50s or so.

This is VH4, not VH1. I would keep much of the history, not all. I personally wouldn't strictly follow Rai 0, just treat it for what it is (in the fiction) - a story told by Rokland Tate that had been passed down through centuries and filled with misinterpretations and inaccuracies.

I'd use time travel for Shadowman and Darque. Archer would be dead, Old man Pete is teaching a younger generation of Harbingers, Bloodshot's blood passes to someone else in 2028. EW and Ivar are still around, Aric is still around with X-O, although the armor could be passed to his child or someone else. Rai would start in the 3000s showing the beginning of the Rai lineage and tying in to the Harbinger Wars.

It's just my perspective. In no way am I saying this is the only way to do things. I've just always loved these characters and this world, I have dozens of reboot ideas for all the characters scribbled in sketchbooks for years. Just something fun to think about, basically just fan fiction. Everyone is free to have their own interpretations of the Valiant characters.

[Ryan]

For me, much of the magic of (pre-Birthquake) VH1 Valiant was in the broader context to what else was on the stands at the time - and associated fandom.

To use the parlance of our times, early Valiant was a vibe. There was just something so different and special about those comics, especially (as you say) in the broader context of what else was out there at the time.

Coming home with the Wednesday (or was it Thursday back then?) stack of comics, (early) Valiant just had such a different feel to everything else in the stack. All the bombastic Image and Marvel/DC stuff (which I also liked) just screamed for your attention while the Valiant books had a class and dignity to them that made you want to read them with special attention and care.

[ManofTheAtom]

Personally I would be more of a purist to the original good stuff and keep many of the characters and history from that time.

That history would include Rai #0, though, which by 2024 means that Master Darque, Shadowman, and Archer are gone, while the Harbinger kids are in their 50s or so.

This is VH4, not VH1. I would keep much of the history, not all. I personally wouldn't strictly follow Rai 0, just treat it for what it is (in the fiction) - a story told by Rokland Tate that had been passed down through centuries and filled with misinterpretations and inaccuracies.

I'd use time travel for Shadowman and Darque. Archer would be dead, Old man Pete is teaching a younger generation of Harbingers, Bloodshot's blood passes to someone else in 2028. EW and Ivar are still around, Aric is still around with X-O, although the armor could be passed to his child or someone else. Rai would start in the 3000s showing the beginning of the Rai lineage and tying in to the Harbinger Wars.

It's just my perspective. In no way am I saying this is the only way to do things. I've just always loved these characters and this world, I have dozens of reboot ideas for all the characters scribbled in sketchbooks for years. Just something fun to think about, basically just fan fiction. Everyone is free to have their own interpretations of the Valiant characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

For me, much of the magic of (pre-Birthquake) VH1 Valiant was in the broader context to what else was on the stands at the time - and associated fandom.

To use the parlance of our times, early Valiant was a vibe. There was just something so different and special about those comics, especially (as you say) in the broader context of what else was out there at the time.

Coming home with the Wednesday (or was it Thursday back then?) stack of comics, (early) Valiant just had such a different feel to everything else in the stack. All the bombastic Image and Marvel/DC stuff (which I also liked) just screamed for your attention while the Valiant books had a class and dignity to them that made you want to read them with special attention and care.

[Chiclo]

I am proud of you, MotA. Saying out loud that VH1 can never come back is the first step in recovery.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am proud of you, MotA. Saying out loud that VH1 can never come back is the first step in recovery.

[Ryan]

I am proud of you, MotA. Saying out loud that VH1 can never come back is the first step in recovery.

The fact that new VEI comics are coming out and instead of talking about them people have to make threads about how much VH1 doesn't matter, just proves the point of how much VH1 DOES still matter.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am proud of you, MotA. Saying out loud that VH1 can never come back is the first step in recovery.

The fact that new VEI comics are coming out and instead of talking about them people have to make threads about how much VH1 doesn't matter, just proves the point of how much VH1 DOES still matter.

Check the register membered area for discussions on the new comic, and the Facebook page too.

[Chiclo]

I am proud of you, MotA. Saying out loud that VH1 can never come back is the first step in recovery.

The fact that new VEI comics are coming out and instead of talking about them people have to make threads about how much VH1 doesn't matter, just proves the point of how much VH1 DOES still matter.

This thread is not claiming that VH1 does not matter. This thread claims that VH1 cannot be revived in print.

You can never enter the same stream twice.

[Ryan]

I am proud of you, MotA. Saying out loud that VH1 can never come back is the first step in recovery.

The fact that new VEI comics are coming out and instead of talking about them people have to make threads about how much VH1 doesn't matter, just proves the point of how much VH1 DOES still matter.

Check the register membered area for discussions on the new comic, and the Facebook page too.

It doesn't seem very lively. Your thread proclaims that VH1 can never come back because VEI is so superior and yet you haven't read a Valiant comic since Stalinverse (in 2017)? I just don't understand that. Let people enjoy whatever they want, no one knows what the future holds.

[Ryan]

This thread is not claiming that VH1 does not matter. This thread claims that VH1 cannot be revived in print.

You can never enter the same stream twice.

I also heard don't cross the streams.

If we're doing semantics, then the whole thread is flawed because there's plenty of conceivable ways that VH1 could come back, even at the least through fan fiction.