VH 0 Phil and VH 1 Aric

[ManofTheAtom]

In Alpha & Omega, Phil Seleski built a fusion reactor that became a wish machine which turned him into his favorite childhood comic book superhero, Doctor Solar.

In X-O Manowar/Iron Man, Aric Dacia similarly used the Cosmic Cube to give himself the X-O Manowar in 408 A.D. so he could use it to conquer his enemies (sidenote: VH 2 should have more deeply explored how having the X-O Manowar helped the Visigoths with the sacking of Rome, and how come they didn't use it to take over the world. You'd think that would have been enough to radically change history in their favor...).

In both instances, they used advanced machines to make their wishes come true.

Could a similar device be used to explain the creation of VEI? For that matter, could magic ink from VH 2/Unity 2000 likewise be considered a wish machine of some sort that falls into the category of being advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic?

In essence, what these wish machines do is rewrite the energy state of the universe, changing it from VH 0 to VH 1, from VH 1 to VH 2, from VH 2 to the unpublished VH 3, and from either VH 2 or VH 3 to VEI.
 
If a wish machine played a role in VEI's creation, what could that wish machine be and who could have been the one that made the wish?

[Chiclo]

A wish machine sounds pretty magical to me.

[ManofTheAtom]

A wish machine sounds pretty magical to me.

It's just a fancy name for an energy manipulator.

[Chiclo]

A wish machine sounds pretty magical to me.

It's just a fancy name for an energy manipulator.

I dunno, manipulating energy with wishes sounds pretty magical. Abracadabra! Is Phil manifesting? Does he need to recharge his healing crystals in the light of the full moon and burn sage?

[ManofTheAtom]

A wish machine sounds pretty magical to me.

It's just a fancy name for an energy manipulator.

I dunno, manipulating energy with wishes sounds pretty magical. Abracadabra! Is Phil manifesting? Does he need to recharge his healing crystals in the light of the full moon and burn sage?

There was no abracadabra per se, though.

Phil merely inadvertently created technology that was sufficiently advanced that it was indistinguishable from magic. The A.I.M. scientists did the same when they created the Cosmic Cube.

[Ryan]

In Alpha & Omega, Phil Seleski built a fusion reactor that became a wish machine which turned him into his favorite childhood comic book superhero, Doctor Solar.

In X-O Manowar/Iron Man, Aric Dacia similarly used the Cosmic Cube to give himself the X-O Manowar in 408 A.D. so he could use it to conquer his enemies (sidenote: VH 2 should have more deeply explored how having the X-O Manowar helped the Visigoths with the sacking of Rome, and how come they didn't use it to take over the world. You'd think that would have been enough to radically change history in their favor...).

In both instances, they used advanced machines to make their wishes come true.

Could a similar device be used to explain the creation of VEI? For that matter, could magic ink from VH 2/Unity 2000 likewise be considered a wish machine of some sort that falls into the category of being advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic?

In essence, what these wish machines do is rewrite the energy state of the universe, changing it from VH 0 to VH 1, from VH 1 to VH 2, from VH 2 to the unpublished VH 3, and from either VH 2 or VH 3 to VEI.
 
If a wish machine played a role in VEI's creation, what could that wish machine be and who could have been the one that made the wish?

I wanna say the goat but I'll restrain myself... I think the answer would have to be somewhere in Unity 2000. It's the only comic (I think) that deals with Valiant as a 'multiverse' of sorts.

A wish machine sounds pretty magical to me.

I agree. But it's still a sci-fi/fantasy story so there has to be some fantasy involved. The difference I think with Vh1 and other sci-fi that leans to the hard side is that they try to limit the number of fantasy elements they introduce and then try to extrapolate realistically from there.

[ManofTheAtom]

In Alpha & Omega, Phil Seleski built a fusion reactor that became a wish machine which turned him into his favorite childhood comic book superhero, Doctor Solar.

In X-O Manowar/Iron Man, Aric Dacia similarly used the Cosmic Cube to give himself the X-O Manowar in 408 A.D. so he could use it to conquer his enemies (sidenote: VH 2 should have more deeply explored how having the X-O Manowar helped the Visigoths with the sacking of Rome, and how come they didn't use it to take over the world. You'd think that would have been enough to radically change history in their favor...).

In both instances, they used advanced machines to make their wishes come true.

Could a similar device be used to explain the creation of VEI? For that matter, could magic ink from VH 2/Unity 2000 likewise be considered a wish machine of some sort that falls into the category of being advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic?

In essence, what these wish machines do is rewrite the energy state of the universe, changing it from VH 0 to VH 1, from VH 1 to VH 2, from VH 2 to the unpublished VH 3, and from either VH 2 or VH 3 to VEI.
 
If a wish machine played a role in VEI's creation, what could that wish machine be and who could have been the one that made the wish?

I wanna say the goat but I'll restrain myself... I think the answer would have to be somewhere in Unity 2000. It's the only comic (I think) that deals with Valiant as a 'multiverse' of sorts.

A wish machine sounds pretty magical to me.

I agree. But it's still a sci-fi/fantasy story so there has to be some fantasy involved. The difference I think with Vh1 and other sci-fi that leans to the hard side is that they try to limit the number of fantasy elements they introduce and then try to extrapolate realistically from there.

That multiverse stuff would need to be explained away as being more of Phil's comic book fanboy nonsense, heh.

Someone would have to become aware of the way Aric changed reality and wished it back to how it was using a McGuffin, thus resulting in VEI, which is a close approximation of VH 1.

[jakgrimm]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

[ManofTheAtom]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

Heh.

She did. She made her own reactor. So those things can be replicated.

[Ryan]

That multiverse stuff would need to be explained away as being more of Phil's comic book fanboy nonsense, heh.

Someone would have to become aware of the way Aric changed reality and wished it back to how it was using a McGuffin, thus resulting in VEI, which is a close approximation of VH 1.

I don't think it's the most elegant solution, but just for the sake of argument let's say we're going from your premise that Valiant can only have one true universe and any other parallel universe versions are some sort of projections or illusions.

In that case, I like the idea that VH2 was an animation universe that was produced within VH1, which is why most of the concepts aren't based on 'reality' (aka VH1). Then VEI is the cinematic universe within VH1 that was partially based on the VH2 animation universe and partially based on 'reality' (VH1). That also explains why VEI reads like a wannabe MCU movie .

I don't think the solution to the 3 universe problem has to be overly complicated though. The more complex it gets, the more it takes away from the whole point of the solution, which is that all 3 parallel universes should be valid in some way and the focus being on the exciting stories being told now.

[Ryan]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

To me VEI to VH1 is sorta like Total Recall 2012 to Total Recall 1990 (Similar years too). Sure TR 2012 had better special effects, more modern storytelling and updated some of the campy 90's aspects and it was a decent movie that made its money back. But ultimately it's a forgettable remake of a classic and was fine in its time but will never replace or eclipse the classic status of the original.

[ManofTheAtom]

That multiverse stuff would need to be explained away as being more of Phil's comic book fanboy nonsense, heh.

Someone would have to become aware of the way Aric changed reality and wished it back to how it was using a McGuffin, thus resulting in VEI, which is a close approximation of VH 1.

I don't think it's the most elegant solution, but just for the sake of argument let's say we're going from your premise that Valiant can only have one true universe and any other parallel universe versions are some sort of projections or illusions.

In that case, I like the idea that VH2 was an animation universe that was produced within VH1, which is why most of the concepts aren't based on 'reality' (aka VH1). Then VEI is the cinematic universe within VH1 that was partially based on the VH2 animation universe and partially based on 'reality' (VH1). That also explains why VEI reads like a wannabe MCU movie .

I don't think the solution to the 3 universe problem has to be overly complicated though. The more complex it gets, the more it takes away from the whole point of the solution, which is that all 3 parallel universes should be valid in some way and the focus being on the exciting stories being told now.

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

[ManofTheAtom]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

To me VEI to VH1 is sorta like Total Recall 2012 to Total Recall 1990 (Similar years too). Sure TR 2012 had better special effects, more modern storytelling and updated some of the campy 90's aspects and it was a decent movie that made its money back. But ultimately it's a forgettable remake of a classic and was fine in its time but will never replace or eclipse the classic status of the original.

Ouch, heh.

[Ryan]

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

[Ryan]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

To me VEI to VH1 is sorta like Total Recall 2012 to Total Recall 1990 (Similar years too). Sure TR 2012 had better special effects, more modern storytelling and updated some of the campy 90's aspects and it was a decent movie that made its money back. But ultimately it's a forgettable remake of a classic and was fine in its time but will never replace or eclipse the classic status of the original.

Ouch, heh.

That came off kind of harsh. I mean no offense to people who love VEI, it's high quality stuff. I'm admittedly biased toward VH1. It's been my favorite comics since first reading Magnus 4 at age 11. Total Recall is also one of my favorite movies for similar reasons. It's probable that no reboot would have ever satisfied me, so take my criticisms with that in mind.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

[Ryan]

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

Yikes. I always thought the intention was to come out with the 'best' characters from VH1 and 2 and continue with those. VH1 X-O, Solar, etc. VH2 Bloodshot, Shadowman (video game version). Sort of similar to what VEI did without ever giving an 'in-story' explanation for it like U2K was trying to do.

I think enough years had passed though, since they were going full reboot an in-story explanation would have only made things more confusing. The point of a reboot is to make it easier for new people jump on without needing to deal with all the history.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

Yikes. I always thought the intention was to come out with the 'best' characters from VH1 and 2 and continue with those. VH1 X-O, Solar, etc. VH2 Bloodshot, Shadowman (video game version). Sort of similar to what VEI did without ever giving an 'in-story' explanation for it like U2K was trying to do.

I think enough years had passed though, since they were going full reboot an in-story explanation would have only made things more confusing. The point of a reboot is to make it easier for new people jump on without needing to deal with all the history.

That was Nicieza's plan for his version of the 99 event.

[Ryan]

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

Yikes. I always thought the intention was to come out with the 'best' characters from VH1 and 2 and continue with those. VH1 X-O, Solar, etc. VH2 Bloodshot, Shadowman (video game version). Sort of similar to what VEI did without ever giving an 'in-story' explanation for it like U2K was trying to do.

I think enough years had passed though, since they were going full reboot an in-story explanation would have only made things more confusing. The point of a reboot is to make it easier for new people jump on without needing to deal with all the history.

That was Nicieza's plan for his version of the 99 event.

I mean it makes sense, it's like a consolidation. There had been something like 30 different title characters by that point between VH1 and 2. From that, choose the 5-8 strongest characters/concepts and re-start from there. That's exactly what VEI did. Now how do you explain that within the narrative to make it somehow make sense that there are these different iterations of the same characters suddenly in the same world? Lots of ways to do it.

[Ryan]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

To me VEI to VH1 is sorta like Total Recall 2012 to Total Recall 1990 (Similar years too). Sure TR 2012 had better special effects, more modern storytelling and updated some of the campy 90's aspects and it was a decent movie that made its money back. But ultimately it's a forgettable remake of a classic and was fine in its time but will never replace or eclipse the classic status of the original.

Ouch, heh.

That's also just the danger of a reboot. A reboot is meant to replace the previous version, not co-exist or build off of the history. It puts it in direct competition with the earlier version that hardcore fans think of as a beloved classic. Adds to the challenge significantly.

That's why Marvel has never fully rebooted after all these years and DC reboots never fully stick.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think we should keep the notion that Aric used his own wish machine, the Cosmic Cube, to give himself the armor the same way Phil used his wish machine to turn himself into Solar, though.

In the process of doing VH 2, Nicieza inadvertently created a sort of running theme in the VALIANT comics; heroes who gain access to wish machines that grant them their fondest desires.

it's worth investigating.

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

Yikes. I always thought the intention was to come out with the 'best' characters from VH1 and 2 and continue with those. VH1 X-O, Solar, etc. VH2 Bloodshot, Shadowman (video game version). Sort of similar to what VEI did without ever giving an 'in-story' explanation for it like U2K was trying to do.

I think enough years had passed though, since they were going full reboot an in-story explanation would have only made things more confusing. The point of a reboot is to make it easier for new people jump on without needing to deal with all the history.

That was Nicieza's plan for his version of the 99 event.

I mean it makes sense, it's like a consolidation. There had been something like 30 different title characters by that point between VH1 and 2. From that, choose the 5-8 strongest characters/concepts and re-start from there. That's exactly what VEI did. Now how do you explain that within the narrative to make it somehow make sense that there are these different iterations of the same characters suddenly in the same world? Lots of ways to do it.

They're all the same character.

Everything in the universe is energy, it's all in how you move it.

VH 2 Gilad and VEI Gilad are the same as VH 1 Gilad. They've all been recreated, changed from one to the other. Just like Phi when he went from being human to becoming Solar.

When Aric gave himself the X-O Manowar armor, he changed history, which in turn changed what happened after. Add to that Solar changing things when he observed it happen.

Likewise, something similar can be said to have taken place between VH 2 and VEI.

As for the "original" VALIANT characters in Unity 2000, we can say that it turns out that they were fictional after all, which is why the "magic ink" destroyed them.

[ManofTheAtom]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

To me VEI to VH1 is sorta like Total Recall 2012 to Total Recall 1990 (Similar years too). Sure TR 2012 had better special effects, more modern storytelling and updated some of the campy 90's aspects and it was a decent movie that made its money back. But ultimately it's a forgettable remake of a classic and was fine in its time but will never replace or eclipse the classic status of the original.

Ouch, heh.

That's also just the danger of a reboot. A reboot is meant to replace the previous version, not co-exist or build off of the history. It puts it in direct competition with the earlier version that hardcore fans think of as a beloved classic. Adds to the challenge significantly.

That's why Marvel has never fully rebooted after all these years and DC reboots never fully stick.

VEI can co-exist with VH 1 and VH 2 by using the device I propose above; all the characters are the same, they've just been changed by the wish machines.

[Ryan]

I need to read X-O/Iron Man! Definitely there's a wish machine theme going on, is that how Unity 2000 ended too? I know the 'magic ink' or whatever but I forget the details.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been an in-story explanation as to why the VEI universe has super powered beings and those things. Is that right, or did I miss it? Is it something to do with the boon?

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

Yikes. I always thought the intention was to come out with the 'best' characters from VH1 and 2 and continue with those. VH1 X-O, Solar, etc. VH2 Bloodshot, Shadowman (video game version). Sort of similar to what VEI did without ever giving an 'in-story' explanation for it like U2K was trying to do.

I think enough years had passed though, since they were going full reboot an in-story explanation would have only made things more confusing. The point of a reboot is to make it easier for new people jump on without needing to deal with all the history.

That was Nicieza's plan for his version of the 99 event.

I mean it makes sense, it's like a consolidation. There had been something like 30 different title characters by that point between VH1 and 2. From that, choose the 5-8 strongest characters/concepts and re-start from there. That's exactly what VEI did. Now how do you explain that within the narrative to make it somehow make sense that there are these different iterations of the same characters suddenly in the same world? Lots of ways to do it.

They're all the same character.

Everything in the universe is energy, it's all in how you move it.

VH 2 Gilad and VEI Gilad are the same as VH 1 Gilad. They've all been recreated, changed from one to the other. Just like Phi when he went from being human to becoming Solar.

When Aric gave himself the X-O Manowar armor, he changed history, which in turn changed what happened after. Add to that Solar changing things when he observed it happen.

Likewise, something similar can be said to have taken place between VH 2 and VEI.

As for the "original" VALIANT characters in Unity 2000, we can say that it turns out that they were fictional after all, which is why the "magic ink" destroyed them.

I like that. Keep it simple

[ManofTheAtom]

I can't recall offhand what the VEI explanation is for it, but the boon could be it.

Unity 2000 ended with Alexander D'arque using the magic ink to destroy the VH 1 heroes, who turned out to be comic book characters or some crap like that. The idea was for VH 2 to survive. But then there was an epilogue that changed things. Not sure what happens in it, though.

Yikes. I always thought the intention was to come out with the 'best' characters from VH1 and 2 and continue with those. VH1 X-O, Solar, etc. VH2 Bloodshot, Shadowman (video game version). Sort of similar to what VEI did without ever giving an 'in-story' explanation for it like U2K was trying to do.

I think enough years had passed though, since they were going full reboot an in-story explanation would have only made things more confusing. The point of a reboot is to make it easier for new people jump on without needing to deal with all the history.

That was Nicieza's plan for his version of the 99 event.

I mean it makes sense, it's like a consolidation. There had been something like 30 different title characters by that point between VH1 and 2. From that, choose the 5-8 strongest characters/concepts and re-start from there. That's exactly what VEI did. Now how do you explain that within the narrative to make it somehow make sense that there are these different iterations of the same characters suddenly in the same world? Lots of ways to do it.

They're all the same character.

Everything in the universe is energy, it's all in how you move it.

VH 2 Gilad and VEI Gilad are the same as VH 1 Gilad. They've all been recreated, changed from one to the other. Just like Phi when he went from being human to becoming Solar.

When Aric gave himself the X-O Manowar armor, he changed history, which in turn changed what happened after. Add to that Solar changing things when he observed it happen.

Likewise, something similar can be said to have taken place between VH 2 and VEI.

As for the "original" VALIANT characters in Unity 2000, we can say that it turns out that they were fictional after all, which is why the "magic ink" destroyed them.

I like that. Keep it simple

Use Omar's mistake of showing U2K Phil holding Solar #1 from VALIANT instead of Doctor Solar from Gold Key to explain that they were indeed all fictional, heh.

Shooter did include the "real" Solar in the story, serving a sentence in purgatory where he is forced to rewatch the fusion meltdown for all eternity.

[jakgrimm]

Erica also had a wish machine, one that would listen only to her.


Sorry I don't care at all for VEI
Of course I mean sorry not sorry

To me VEI to VH1 is sorta like Total Recall 2012 to Total Recall 1990 (Similar years too). Sure TR 2012 had better special effects, more modern storytelling and updated some of the campy 90's aspects and it was a decent movie that made its money back. But ultimately it's a forgettable remake of a classic and was fine in its time but will never replace or eclipse the classic status of the original.

!00%!
Robocop too, Clash of the Titans