Just not feeling it anymore

[Chiclo]

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

I come away from that run with the complete opposite. Shooter's run...

After fighting the businessman...

vs himself in colorful explosions

vs aliens in space

vs Kama the dragon lady (and Roman aliens)

vs the Godchild, a magical baby

and we're not at issue #10 yet

Solar was a little more pensive in his narration and less lovesick than Peter Parker, but he was definitely participating in a super hero story fighting out of this world villains

Godchild was not magical. Might not have even been a villain, since he was overwhelmed with power but not able to make moral judgments between right and wrong. More a barely sapient force that had to be thwarted because he could not control himself.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

It's like we read different books. Right before he met Harada (through a telephone that he portaled into) he had a big break in and fight with a bunch of superheroes. I think you read this at the right age and have a selective, rose tinted, memory of it. Even original Valiant was very superhero.

You're thinking of the Eggbreakers. Not really "villains" per se, but more like hired muscle, henchmen.

Shooter should have dwelled more on that. Given Solar a "WTF"-moment as he tried to make sense of how such individuals could exist in what seemed to otherwise be the real world.

lol, the eggbreakers were in a ton of issues and they are villains. You're writing stuff that isn't in the books to make your preferred tone fit. Shooter didn't write that moment because that wasn't the tone he was writing. In this issue or any other book. Explain to me how Magnus #1 which launched Valiant has the tone of a legal drama?

Think about it, and maybe you'll get it...

[ManofTheAtom]

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

I come away from that run with the complete opposite. Shooter's run...

After fighting the businessman...

vs himself in colorful explosions

vs aliens in space

vs Kama the dragon lady (and Roman aliens)

vs the Godchild, a magical baby

and we're not at issue #10 yet

Solar was a little more pensive in his narration and less lovesick than Peter Parker, but he was definitely participating in a super hero story fighting out of this world villains

Look at the issue with Ravenus and the Christmas party. At its core, Solar was the story of a God striving to remain a man.

He did do all of that, and he also played around with VR, and he went to the beach with his friends, etc.

That's all grounded stuff that everymen do.

What you cite is the equivalent of cops in police procedurals going undercover to arrest drug dealers, or doctors in medical dramas struggling to get through a difficult operation.

The existence of the above does not undermine the fact that, at the end of the day, VALIANT put a greater emphasis on the people inside the costumes than on the costumes.

Contrast that against VH 2 or Silver Age DC.

[Ryan]

Good point. Let's look forward.

IMO the Alien problem is simple but the solution is very hard. Valiant readers who loved VEI and before have been burnt pretty badly since Dinesh was fired. The DMG books have been mostly bad to very bad (with a bright spot here or there). Fans are rightly cautious of Alien being more of the same. The simple solution for Alien is to show that they are not more of the same. That they will be good. Maybe even show us that they will be great like VEI.

The very hard solution to do that is through the choices of which characters to publish, which names to name the titles, the cover art, previews of some interior art, story concepts. Basic marketing. In those choices Alien have been very poor imo. The books might be great (by all accounts so far they are mediocre to bad but that's not important) but what they have shown us so that we get excited has looked very much more of the same. The cover art has been pretty uninspired in idea and very average in execution. There are no real big cool story ideas yet. etc. I used to love the VEI events because they did so much good marketing. It was just as fun getting hyped as it was reading the story. Bad Idea is great at this. The current Tankers Kickstarter videos are unique and the small art teases they've shown show that the comics are going to A+. Alien need to show us something that wows us. Otherwise, fans will assume it'll be more DMG. IMO

That all makes sense.

But compare that to the VH1 fanbase. VH1 ended in 1996 after some really poorly received comics for the last year+, since at least Birthquake in 95. Then we get a total reboot in 96 (VH2) using totally new versions of the characters which most fans didn't like. Then a bunch of video game tie-in comics and Unity 2000, again poorly received by the fans and Acclaim ran out of money before it was even finished.

With all this I would say being a Valiant fan from 1995-2001 was even worse than being a VEI fan from 2018-2024 (DMG era). And yet in 2002 the fanbase was still large and passionate. It's too bad the board archives from 2001-04 were lost, as I remember some awesome discussions. All you have to do is look at this board from 2004-2010 to see how passionate and excited the fanbase would have been for any new comics, especially for a return to the VH1 continuity. It was that fan excitement that made VEI possible in the first place.

So 6 years of DMG and the majority of VEI fans are just out? Their favorite characters are in new stories being produced by new creative teams and they could care less because the covers don't look good? I don't see the passion. Try being a VH1 fan

[Ryan]

It was just as fun getting hyped as it was reading the story. Bad Idea is great at this. The current Tankers Kickstarter videos are unique and the small art teases they've shown show that the comics are going to A+.

So VEI fans are really just Dinesh fans, right? That's cool, he does make awesome stuff. So you guys have Bad Idea already, where he and his creators can do exactly the kind of books they want to do.

If the VEI fans have no interest in the Valiant characters or VEI continuity unless it's Dinesh-style comics, then just give the characters back to us please. Wipe it clean and start new or re-reboot (un-reboot?) back to VH1.

[nycjadie]

VH1 had a community of fans that consisted of most collectors and readers at the beginning and it petered out like most publishers in that era. I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t hundred of thousands at a certain point.

Today’s Valiant community is incredibly small. Probably a few thousand. It’s pretty easy to alienate half your audience. Only a few recent books have collectible appeal. The community is a handful of those few thousand, the hard core fans.

When you alienate the hard core fans, that is your community.

This is why so many have stated (sometimes unproductively) that the publisher should appeal to the hard core fans and not the new readers. I think they have a point to a large degree. You can’t get new readers without an active community and following. You can’t publish books without an active fan base.

[Ryan]

VH1 had a community of fans that consisted of most collectors and readers at the beginning and it petered out like most publishers in that era. I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t hundred of thousands at a certain point.

Today’s Valiant community is incredibly small. Probably a few thousand. It’s pretty easy to alienate half your audience. Only a few recent books have collectible appeal. The community is a handful of those few thousand, the hard core fans.

When you alienate the hard core fans, that is your community.

This is why so many have stated (sometimes unproductively) that the publisher should appeal to the hard core fans and not the new readers. I think they have a point to a large degree. You can’t get new readers without an active community and following. You can’t publish books without an active fan base.

Good points. I think DMG had mostly been trying to appeal to a wider comics reading audience, and not the long-time fans. Obviously if something only appealed to the hard core fans it probably wouldn't sell enough to make a profit. There has to be a middle ground though where something that gets the core fanbase excited could also have broader appeal.

It seems to me that Alien is really making an attempt to get back the VEI readers though. I think people who love those characters should give them a shot, more than just a cover. A few months of releases at least. They seem like mostly young creators, if they're given support maybe they will make something really awesome.

[reddog]

Also not feeling it. Still nostalgic over early Valiant (which right now is what is mainly discussed here), but not even Dinesh found that magic again. Hope Alien can find something similar. If they do - let me know.

/Magnus

I think you guys are just old. I read VEI first starting in 2012 and 2012-2018 was some of the best comics I've ever read. I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

I want to get banned so here goes....syzhang28, you are a cock

Literally dumbfounded as to what I said that made you feel this way. Am I not allowed to have an opinion about original Valiant reading like old man comics to someone who wasn't there way back when?

awwwww.....you can have an opinion....and if it makes you feel any better i originally wrote dick but it got squeed so i changed to cock...hope that helps...and my opinion of your post shouldn't mean anything more to you than my opinion of your post means to me

[reddog]

[syzhang28]

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

I come away from that run with the complete opposite. Shooter's run...

After fighting the businessman...

vs himself in colorful explosions

vs aliens in space

vs Kama the dragon lady (and Roman aliens)

vs the Godchild, a magical baby

and we're not at issue #10 yet

Solar was a little more pensive in his narration and less lovesick than Peter Parker, but he was definitely participating in a super hero story fighting out of this world villains

Look at the issue with Ravenus and the Christmas party. At its core, Solar was the story of a God striving to remain a man.

He did do all of that, and he also played around with VR, and he went to the beach with his friends, etc.

That's all grounded stuff that everymen do.

What you cite is the equivalent of cops in police procedurals going undercover to arrest drug dealers, or doctors in medical dramas struggling to get through a difficult operation.

The existence of the above does not undermine the fact that, at the end of the day, VALIANT put a greater emphasis on the people inside the costumes than on the costumes.

Contrast that against VH 2 or Silver Age DC.

Yeah, you're just not getting Valiant.

[syzhang28]

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

It's like we read different books. Right before he met Harada (through a telephone that he portaled into) he had a big break in and fight with a bunch of superheroes. I think you read this at the right age and have a selective, rose tinted, memory of it. Even original Valiant was very superhero.

You're thinking of the Eggbreakers. Not really "villains" per se, but more like hired muscle, henchmen.

Shooter should have dwelled more on that. Given Solar a "WTF"-moment as he tried to make sense of how such individuals could exist in what seemed to otherwise be the real world.

lol, the eggbreakers were in a ton of issues and they are villains. You're writing stuff that isn't in the books to make your preferred tone fit. Shooter didn't write that moment because that wasn't the tone he was writing. In this issue or any other book. Explain to me how Magnus #1 which launched Valiant has the tone of a legal drama?

Think about it, and maybe you'll get it...

Nah, I think you're just in a place where you're dug in on a mistaken idea.

[syzhang28]

Good point. Let's look forward.

IMO the Alien problem is simple but the solution is very hard. Valiant readers who loved VEI and before have been burnt pretty badly since Dinesh was fired. The DMG books have been mostly bad to very bad (with a bright spot here or there). Fans are rightly cautious of Alien being more of the same. The simple solution for Alien is to show that they are not more of the same. That they will be good. Maybe even show us that they will be great like VEI.

The very hard solution to do that is through the choices of which characters to publish, which names to name the titles, the cover art, previews of some interior art, story concepts. Basic marketing. In those choices Alien have been very poor imo. The books might be great (by all accounts so far they are mediocre to bad but that's not important) but what they have shown us so that we get excited has looked very much more of the same. The cover art has been pretty uninspired in idea and very average in execution. There are no real big cool story ideas yet. etc. I used to love the VEI events because they did so much good marketing. It was just as fun getting hyped as it was reading the story. Bad Idea is great at this. The current Tankers Kickstarter videos are unique and the small art teases they've shown show that the comics are going to A+. Alien need to show us something that wows us. Otherwise, fans will assume it'll be more DMG. IMO

That all makes sense.

But compare that to the VH1 fanbase. VH1 ended in 1996 after some really poorly received comics for the last year+, since at least Birthquake in 95. Then we get a total reboot in 96 (VH2) using totally new versions of the characters which most fans didn't like. Then a bunch of video game tie-in comics and Unity 2000, again poorly received by the fans and Acclaim ran out of money before it was even finished.

With all this I would say being a Valiant fan from 1995-2001 was even worse than being a VEI fan from 2018-2024 (DMG era). And yet in 2002 the fanbase was still large and passionate. It's too bad the board archives from 2001-04 were lost, as I remember some awesome discussions. All you have to do is look at this board from 2004-2010 to see how passionate and excited the fanbase would have been for any new comics, especially for a return to the VH1 continuity. It was that fan excitement that made VEI possible in the first place.

So 6 years of DMG and the majority of VEI fans are just out? Their favorite characters are in new stories being produced by new creative teams and they could care less because the covers don't look good? I don't see the passion. Try being a VH1 fan

Exactly. The lowest point in VH1 fandom was around 1999-2002. While the books were coming out but they were at their worst. Bad books will make it hard to remember why you like the characters. Until DMG/Alien finally dies and we can put a box around this VEI-Alien run we can't start to say this was good and that was bad and move into a place where we start to engage again with the good stuff.

[syzhang28]

It was just as fun getting hyped as it was reading the story. Bad Idea is great at this. The current Tankers Kickstarter videos are unique and the small art teases they've shown show that the comics are going to A+.

So VEI fans are really just Dinesh fans, right? That's cool, he does make awesome stuff. So you guys have Bad Idea already, where he and his creators can do exactly the kind of books they want to do.

If the VEI fans have no interest in the Valiant characters or VEI continuity unless it's Dinesh-style comics, then just give the characters back to us please. Wipe it clean and start new or re-reboot (un-reboot?) back to VH1.

I don't think that's true. I think he's just the last person to do it well. Shooter did it well. Layton did it well. Dinesh did it well. As soon as the next person that does it well comes along I bet everyone is back onboard. It's just being done badly right now which makes it hard to love the characters. There was a time when no one cared about Spider-Man. They were talking about canceling the comic. That was after years of it being done badly. They started doing it well again and boom, everyone came back.

[syzhang28]

VH1 had a community of fans that consisted of most collectors and readers at the beginning and it petered out like most publishers in that era. I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t hundred of thousands at a certain point.

Today’s Valiant community is incredibly small. Probably a few thousand. It’s pretty easy to alienate half your audience. Only a few recent books have collectible appeal. The community is a handful of those few thousand, the hard core fans.

When you alienate the hard core fans, that is your community.

This is why so many have stated (sometimes unproductively) that the publisher should appeal to the hard core fans and not the new readers. I think they have a point to a large degree. You can’t get new readers without an active community and following. You can’t publish books without an active fan base.

Super smart

[syzhang28]

Also not feeling it. Still nostalgic over early Valiant (which right now is what is mainly discussed here), but not even Dinesh found that magic again. Hope Alien can find something similar. If they do - let me know.

/Magnus

I think you guys are just old. I read VEI first starting in 2012 and 2012-2018 was some of the best comics I've ever read. I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

I want to get banned so here goes....syzhang28, you are a cock

Literally dumbfounded as to what I said that made you feel this way. Am I not allowed to have an opinion about original Valiant reading like old man comics to someone who wasn't there way back when?

awwwww.....you can have an opinion....and if it makes you feel any better i originally wrote dick but it got squeed so i changed to cock...hope that helps...and my opinion of your post shouldn't mean anything more to you than my opinion of your post means to me

childish and dim-witted

[ManofTheAtom]

Nah, I think you're just in a place where you're dug in on a mistaken idea.

Nope. You keep thinking about it, and you'll get it. Ryan understood it. You can too.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah, you're just not getting Valiant.

[Chiclo]

Yeah, you're just not getting Valiant.

What? You want a goat on first name basis with some other comic types? Maybe the Guardians of the Galaxy? X-Men 2099?

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah, you're just not getting Valiant.

What? You want a goat on first name basis with some other comic types? Maybe the Guardians of the Galaxy? X-Men 2099?

Heh.

When I wrote the Wiki for VALIANT Entertainment's original site, I read E V E R Y S I N G L E VALIANT comics at least four or five times. Each and every single one of them.

I spent days going through them to get as much information as I could about every individual character to create their individual entries, as well as translate the art and dialogue in each panel into entries for the series summaries.

I could have written essays about it if I had felt so inclined to do so. If I knew how to write one, that is, heh.

And that's just the number of times I read them for that specific assignment. That doesn't count the number of times I read them before it just as a fan. So, at the very least, I read each VH 1 comic, maybe over half a dozen times.

My Alpha & Omega trade broke in my hands from how often I read it, heh.

[Ryan]

Exactly. The lowest point in VH1 fandom was around 1999-2002. While the books were coming out but they were at their worst. Bad books will make it hard to remember why you like the characters. Until DMG/Alien finally dies and we can put a box around this VEI-Alien run we can't start to say this was good and that was bad and move into a place where we start to engage again with the good stuff.

Yeah good points. The only problem is, it's hard to assume that what comes after DMG will be better or that there will be anything (comics-wise) at all if DMG fails. At the very least Alien seems to be an improvement over DMG in that there's maybe more of an effort to give the fans what they want, which they assume to be a continuation of VEI and comics in the Kindt/VEI style. (I also might be assuming far too much based on a flip through )

All I'm saying is everyone who still wants Valiant comics to be a thing should give their support to this new Alien venture, and then maybe if there are things us fans really don't like about it they'll be more open to listening. I still think it'll be an uphill battle to gain traction in the comics market after so many relaunches of these characters, but hey they're giving it a shot.

[Ryan]

Yeah, you're just not getting Valiant.

What? You want a goat on first name basis with some other comic types? Maybe the Guardians of the Galaxy? X-Men 2099?

Heh.

When I wrote the Wiki for VALIANT Entertainment's original site, I read E V E R Y S I N G L E VALIANT comics at least four or five times. Each and every single one of them.

I spent days going through them to get as much information as I could about every individual character to create their individual entries, as well as translate the art and dialogue in each panel into entries for the series summaries.

I could have written essays about it if I had felt so inclined to do so. If I knew how to write one, that is, heh.

And that's just the number of times I read them for that specific assignment. That doesn't count the number of times I read them before it just as a fan. So, at the very least, I read each VH 1 comic, maybe over half a dozen times.

My Alpha & Omega trade broke in my hands from how often I read it, heh.

That's awesome

[depluto]

I love this thread. Didn’t think I would when I started.

[ManofTheAtom]

I love this thread. Didn’t think I would when I started.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah, you're just not getting Valiant.

What? You want a goat on first name basis with some other comic types? Maybe the Guardians of the Galaxy? X-Men 2099?

Heh.

When I wrote the Wiki for VALIANT Entertainment's original site, I read E V E R Y S I N G L E VALIANT comics at least four or five times. Each and every single one of them.

I spent days going through them to get as much information as I could about every individual character to create their individual entries, as well as translate the art and dialogue in each panel into entries for the series summaries.

I could have written essays about it if I had felt so inclined to do so. If I knew how to write one, that is, heh.

And that's just the number of times I read them for that specific assignment. That doesn't count the number of times I read them before it just as a fan. So, at the very least, I read each VH 1 comic, maybe over half a dozen times.

My Alpha & Omega trade broke in my hands from how often I read it, heh.

That's awesome

Thanks.

[myron]

I love this thread. Didn’t think I would when I started.

Reminder of days gone by