Time travel rules in Valiant?

[ManofTheAtom]

Explain this one in 20 words or less




I know it's a Dynamite Sucks comic by Ron Marz, but since the GK Turok is technically canon in VH1 and the Lost Land played a huge role in the rules that were established in early Valiant (Time is not absolute), it seems relevant to the Valiant multiverse discussion. There's even clearly at least one unauthorized Valiant Turok in the image.

With around 6 video games, an animated movie, and something like 5 distinct comic versions stretching from 1954 to 2019, Turok has by far the most iterations of any Valiant character.

Dynamite did its own multiverse thing. I'm not sure about the specifics, just that it happened.

[Ryan]

Marvel comics exist in the Marvel universe. She-Hulk has cited them in court.

Many of the persons depicted in those Marvel-within-Marvel comics also exist in the Marvel universe.

Faith said that Marvel comic books exist in the Valiant universe. Did she say that these characters were exclusively fictional?

Clearly it was the intent of the author that the Marvel comics characters to be fictional, in the same way that the authors clearly meant the satchel and Bagh Nakh to be magical. Why is one meant never to be violated and the other to be explained away?

Exactly. This goes to the point that for there to be any sense made of these vast fictional universes that are made up on the fly by numerous writers, editors, marketers, etc. there has be a great deal of interpretation and selective picking and choosing. Cherry picking if you will.

[Ryan]

But VALIANT as originally established did not accommodate a multiverse. It was always intended to be a singular universe that went from one state to another.

Same could be said about DC and Marvel. Neither were originally established with the idea to accommodate a multiverse. Initially the idea of the multiverse was a retcon that's used after many years of storytelling to explain away the contradictory stories.

"It's all energy, it's in how you move it".

The theory, or argument if you will, for conservation of energy, makes a multiverse impossible.

There is only as much energy in the universe as was expelled in the Big Bang. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, there is not enough energy for more than one universe to exist.

VALIANT at its onset strove to adhere to real science, thus it must therefore account for that.

Just because Valiant was initially intended to be a certain way doesn't mean it stayed that way. There are many post-Unity and post-BQ examples that break all the rules that pre-Unity set up.

That's what I'm talking about with the multiverse. No it wasn't intended to be that way, but that's the only way to logically explain what we have.

Which is why, when Shooter went back to try to 'fix' it in U2K, he couldn't use the rules he had set up in, he had to use comic book tropes like multiverse monsters and magic ink, because that's what the Valiant universe had become in post-U and VH2, a trope-filled comic booky universe that followed comic book rules.

[Ryan]

Dynamite did its own multiverse thing. I'm not sure about the specifics, just that it happened.

Regardless of the publisher, VH2 Turok's appearance in this book tells us that VH2 is part of the multiverse (or omniverse).

[ManofTheAtom]

Same could be said about DC and Marvel. Neither were originally established with the idea to accommodate a multiverse. Initially the idea of the multiverse was a retcon that's used after many years of storytelling to explain away the contradictory stories.

Which is lazy writing.

Just because Valiant was initially intended to be a certain way doesn't mean it stayed that way. There are many post-Unity and post-BQ examples that break all the rules that pre-Unity set up.

That's what I'm talking about with the multiverse. No it wasn't intended to be that way, but that's the only way to logically explain what we have.

Well, it's not the only way. I've been offering you several alternatives.

Which is why, when Shooter went back to try to 'fix' it in U2K, he couldn't use the rules he had set up in, he had to use comic book tropes like multiverse monsters and magic ink, because that's what the Valiant universe had become in post-U and VH2, a trope-filled comic booky universe that followed comic book rules.

He wrote U2K to accommodate VH 2, not to make it about VH 1, though, hence the tropes.

[ManofTheAtom]

Dynamite did its own multiverse thing. I'm not sure about the specifics, just that it happened.

Regardless of the publisher, VH2 Turok's appearance in this book tells us that VH2 is part of the multiverse (or omniverse).

It tells us that Dynamite has the licensing rights to use the character.

[ManofTheAtom]

The goal should be to restore VALIANT to what it was in the beginning in terms of tone, style, rules, etc.

It should not be to accommodate the things that contradicted all of those aspects that made it what it was.

[Chiclo]

Marvel comics exist in the Marvel universe. She-Hulk has cited them in court.

Many of the persons depicted in those Marvel-within-Marvel comics also exist in the Marvel universe.

Faith said that Marvel comic books exist in the Valiant universe. Did she say that these characters were exclusively fictional?

Clearly it was the intent of the author that the Marvel comics characters to be fictional, in the same way that the authors clearly meant the satchel and Bagh Nakh to be magical. Why is one meant never to be violated and the other to be explained away?

They're both explained away.

As I stated earlier, there is a much greater likelihood of Crescendo using her virtual reality machine to make Aric believe he encountered Iron Man than there is of the two actually meeting. Just like there is a greater probability of those items being advanced technology from the future than there is of their being magical.

You'll note that magical items in the VU are not that vast.

Even the cursed 13 silver coins of Judas can be explained as having absorbed necromantic energy upon his death. That didn't necessarily make them magical since necromantic energy is not magical itself. It is merely the energy that leaves one's body upon death.

They were not explained away. An explanation was offered with no evidence. It was speculation and far from exclusively definite. Such rigorous insistence on a particular and exclusive explanation without any evidence is about as unscientific as it gets; pushing science so unscientifically seems to be at the heart of the 2020s and is very much the situation described in Clarke's First Law.

There is a difference between explaining something away and offering a possible explanation. You have offered explanations for these artifacts. Yes, these are possible explanations for what is going on here. You have not explained them away.

Do you think silver stores necromantic energy well as a characteristic of the metal?

[ManofTheAtom]

Marvel comics exist in the Marvel universe. She-Hulk has cited them in court.

Many of the persons depicted in those Marvel-within-Marvel comics also exist in the Marvel universe.

Faith said that Marvel comic books exist in the Valiant universe. Did she say that these characters were exclusively fictional?

Clearly it was the intent of the author that the Marvel comics characters to be fictional, in the same way that the authors clearly meant the satchel and Bagh Nakh to be magical. Why is one meant never to be violated and the other to be explained away?

They're both explained away.

As I stated earlier, there is a much greater likelihood of Crescendo using her virtual reality machine to make Aric believe he encountered Iron Man than there is of the two actually meeting. Just like there is a greater probability of those items being advanced technology from the future than there is of their being magical.

You'll note that magical items in the VU are not that vast.

Even the cursed 13 silver coins of Judas can be explained as having absorbed necromantic energy upon his death. That didn't necessarily make them magical since necromantic energy is not magical itself. It is merely the energy that leaves one's body upon death.

They were not explained away. An explanation was offered with no evidence. It was speculation and far from exclusively definite. Such rigorous insistence on a particular and exclusive explanation without any evidence is about as unscientific as it gets; pushing science so unscientifically seems to be at the heart of the 2020s and is very much the situation described in Clarke's First Law.

There is a difference between explaining something away and offering a possible explanation. You have offered explanations for these artifacts. Yes, these are possible explanations for what is going on here. You have not explained them away.

Do you think silver stores necromantic energy well as a characteristic of the metal?

Necromantic energy is just that, energy. Silver can conduct electricity. I cannot find conclusive evidence that it can store it, though.

Silver as a conductor

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Silver

"Silver has the highest electrical conductivity of all metals, with copper having the second highest. This makes silver very useful in electronics, often being used for solder, electrical contacts, and printed circuit boards.[2] This conductivity also makes it an excellent reflector of light - hence being the origin of the name "silvered mirrors"."

Silver as storage.

https://www.mining.com/web/more-than-pr ... nergy-era/

"Silver’s conductivity carries and stores the free electrons efficiently, maximizing the energy output of a solar cell. According to one study from the University of Kent, a typical solar panel can contain as much as 20 grams of silver."

[Ryan]

The goal should be to restore VALIANT to what it was in the beginning in terms of tone, style, rules, etc.

It should not be to accommodate the things that contradicted all of those aspects that made it what it was.

Cool man, let's do it your way. What's your list of Valiant comics that actually count so we know which ones are real? If you go by what follows the early Valiant rules/tone/style, you'll be eliminating a lot of post-Unity and all of VEI.

[ManofTheAtom]

The goal should be to restore VALIANT to what it was in the beginning in terms of tone, style, rules, etc.

It should not be to accommodate the things that contradicted all of those aspects that made it what it was.

Cool man, let's do it your way. What's your list of Valiant comics that actually count so we know which ones are real? If you go by what follows the early Valiant rules/tone/style, you'll be eliminating a lot of post-Unity and all of VEI.

Everything before Birthquake. After it, they lost the thread because that was when they decided to mimic DC and Marvel. That was when things went from bad to wrose.

[ManofTheAtom]

Everything from Magnus, Robot Fighter #1 to X-O Manowar #68 is part of VH 1, but a lot that came during and after Birthquake contradicts much of what came before.

The goal should be to reconcile what came after Birthquake with what came before in a way that makes what came before primary to what came after.

[Ryan]

Everything from Magnus, Robot Fighter #1 to X-O Manowar #68 is part of VH 1, but a lot that came during and after Birthquake contradicts much of what came before.

The goal should be to reconcile what came after Birthquake with what came before in a way that makes what came before primary to what came after.

I think a VH1 in 2023 would have to be forward looking, not dwelling on the past and trying to fix all the inconsistencies in comics from 30 years ago. Embrace the rules, hard-ish science, and the story-first style of VH1 while focusing on new adventures rather than dwelling in the past. Like ST:TNG, but with more carryover characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

Everything from Magnus, Robot Fighter #1 to X-O Manowar #68 is part of VH 1, but a lot that came during and after Birthquake contradicts much of what came before.

The goal should be to reconcile what came after Birthquake with what came before in a way that makes what came before primary to what came after.

I think a VH1 in 2023 would have to be forward looking, not dwelling on the past and trying to fix all the inconsistencies in comics from 30 years ago. Embrace the rules, hard-ish science, and the story-first style of VH1 while focusing on new adventures rather than dwelling in the past. Like ST:TNG, but with more carryover characters.

No reason it cannot do both.

If VH 1 said that the Earth is round, but VH 2 said it was flat, the two would not be reconciled with giving VH 2 more value than what VH 1 said.

[Ryan]

No reason it cannot do both.

If VH 1 said that the Earth is round, but VH 2 said it was flat, the two would not be reconciled with giving VH 2 more value than what VH 1 said.

I think you're mistaking me saying I consider the other VH#s a multiverse with me thinking they're good or should be used in any way. I'm not a fan of VH2, one of the things I don't like about VEI is that I thought they used too many concepts from VH2 (Shadowman, Bloodshot, EW, Q&W, etc.). When I had to sell a bunch of my comics, I sold most of my Valiants except the early stuff up until Unity. I've bought some of post-Unity stuff back though.

[ManofTheAtom]

No reason it cannot do both.

If VH 1 said that the Earth is round, but VH 2 said it was flat, the two would not be reconciled with giving VH 2 more value than what VH 1 said.

I think you're mistaking me saying I consider the other VH#s a multiverse with me thinking they're good or should be used in any way. I'm not a fan of VH2, one of the things I don't like about VEI is that I thought they used too many concepts from VH2 (Shadowman, Bloodshot, EW, Q&W, etc.). When I had to sell a bunch of my comics, I sold most of my Valiants except the early stuff up until Unity. I've bought some of post-Unity stuff back though.

There are options beyond a multiverse when reconciling VH 2, VH 3, and, possibly, even VEI with VH 1, though.

VH 2, as stated before, is the same as VH 1 the same way that VH 1 is the same as the Alpha & Omega Earth. It's just that their histories and, in some cases fundamental nature, were altered, first by Phil and then by Aric.

Alternatively, given the absurdity of Aric meeting Iron Man, that can also be reconciled as Crescendo using her virtual reality machine.

That said, her VR machine itself is absurd. Consider the state of VR technology when Phil and Gayle used it in Solar to the machine Crescendo used. That was a massive leap in the development of the technology.

[Ryan]

There are options beyond a multiverse when reconciling VH 2, VH 3, and, possibly, even VEI with VH 1, though.

VH 2, as stated before, is the same as VH 1 the same way that VH 1 is the same as the Alpha & Omega Earth. It's just that their histories and, in some cases fundamental nature, were altered, first by Phil and then by Aric.

Alternatively, given the absurdity of Aric meeting Iron Man, that can also be reconciled as Crescendo using her virtual reality machine.

That said, her VR machine itself is absurd. Consider the state of VR technology when Phil and Gayle used it in Solar to the machine Crescendo used. That was a massive leap in the development of the technology.

Totally, which is why I attached the panel from X-O 46 where Ken is explaining the simulation. "She said it could make you experience anything she wanted and it'd be absolutely real to you. I think she controlled it somehow, something with her mind."

So it isn't just a fancy VR technology, it's a machine that enhances or focuses her mental powers. That makes it more plausible to me that X-O 44-68 could be an elaborate mental illusion controlled by Crescendo.

As for the plausibility of other post-Unity super sciences, let's not get started on the Blood of Heroes...

[ManofTheAtom]

There are options beyond a multiverse when reconciling VH 2, VH 3, and, possibly, even VEI with VH 1, though.

VH 2, as stated before, is the same as VH 1 the same way that VH 1 is the same as the Alpha & Omega Earth. It's just that their histories and, in some cases fundamental nature, were altered, first by Phil and then by Aric.

Alternatively, given the absurdity of Aric meeting Iron Man, that can also be reconciled as Crescendo using her virtual reality machine.

That said, her VR machine itself is absurd. Consider the state of VR technology when Phil and Gayle used it in Solar to the machine Crescendo used. That was a massive leap in the development of the technology.

Totally, which is why I attached the panel from X-O 46 where Ken is explaining the simulation. "She said it could make you experience anything she wanted and it'd be absolutely real to you. I think she controlled it somehow, something with her mind."

So it isn't just a fancy VR technology, it's a machine that enhances or focuses her mental powers. That makes it more plausible to me that X-O 44-68 could be an elaborate mental illusion controlled by Crescendo.

As for the plausibility of other post-Unity super sciences, let's not get started on the Blood of Heroes...

Well, the Blood of Heroes is just the nanites in Bloodshot's blood. That is more feasible.

Good catch on Crescendo. Guess she must be a Harbinger then.

[Ryan]

Well, the Blood of Heroes is just the nanites in Bloodshot's blood. That is more feasible.

Good catch on Crescendo. Guess she must be a Harbinger then.

As for the BoH, some Japanese scientists created it right? (I might have that wrong). Other people could infuse it but their bodies couldn't handle it so they would die quickly (Speedshots). It's revealed that the only reason Mortalli survived it is because he was a latent Harbinger who's powers were triggered by the shock. That's cool, I have no problem with that.

The part that's a big stretch for me is the whole Rai 0 plotline that the BoH was such a valuable and rare commodity that people were hunting for it and guarding it thousands of years later. So those scientists in 1992 could create something easily that somehow is still an advanced technology 2 thousand years later? I love Rai 0, but that never made any sense to me. Maybe it just needs a better explanation.

They made Crescendo into an over the top cheesy villain, but she has potential to be a cool villain if she was toned down and made into an actual character.

[ManofTheAtom]

As for the BoH, some Japanese scientists created it right? (I might have that wrong). Other people could infuse it but their bodies couldn't handle it so they would die quickly (Speedshots). It's revealed that the only reason Mortalli survived it is because he was a latent Harbinger who's powers were triggered by the shock. That's cool, I have no problem with that.

Correct.

The part that's a big stretch for me is the whole Rai 0 plotline that the BoH was such a valuable and rare commodity that people were hunting for it and guarding it thousands of years later. So those scientists in 1992 could create something easily that somehow is still an advanced technology 2 thousand years later? I love Rai 0, but that never made any sense to me. Maybe it just needs a better explanation.

No, no. The one guarding it was Grandmother, which is where the Rai that followed the one that died in Unity found it. After THAT Rai die, Spylocke took the Blood of Heroes from him and guarded it until the son of that Rai was old enough to receive it.

They made Crescendo into an over the top cheesy villain, but she has potential to be a cool villain if she was toned down and made into an actual character.

Yeah.

[Ryan]

No, no. The one guarding it was Grandmother, which is where the Rai that followed the one that died in Unity found it. After THAT Rai die, Spylocke took the Blood of Heroes from him and guarded it until the son of that Rai was old enough to receive it.

I'm talking about the technology of nanites. In 4000 AD Japan they have super advanced technology everywhere, but the nanite blood created in 1992 is still high-tech? They have all kinds of robotic technology but they can't recreate nanite blood from 92? That's the part that I find to be a hard to swallow.

It's not a big deal though, just something that took me out of the story.

[ManofTheAtom]

No, no. The one guarding it was Grandmother, which is where the Rai that followed the one that died in Unity found it. After THAT Rai die, Spylocke took the Blood of Heroes from him and guarded it until the son of that Rai was old enough to receive it.

I'm talking about the technology of nanites. In 4000 AD Japan they have super advanced technology everywhere, but the nanite blood created in 1992 is still high-tech? They have all kinds of robotic technology but they can't recreate nanite blood from 92? That's the part that I find to be a hard to swallow.

It's not a big deal though, just something that took me out of the story.

Well, it wasn't just the technology, it was also Bloodshot's Harbinger ability, which the nanites could replicate.

[iggy101us]

Are Acclaim time travel rules in scope? This is from Bad Eggs That Dirty Yellow Mustard #4 for those keeping track. Quality writing and editing for sure.

[Ryan]

Are Acclaim time travel rules in scope? This is from Bad Eggs That Dirty Yellow Mustard #4 for those keeping track. Quality writing and editing for sure.

This could be the missing link that explains everything