VALIANT And The World Outside Our Window

[ManofTheAtom]

This whole debate has gotten repetitive, but the way I take it is 'the world outside your window' is another way of saying 'hard sci-fi'.

Hard sci-fi is a more rigorous approach to science fiction where all of the fantastical elements of the story are explained using our current understanding of science and logic.

When applied to a comic book superhero universe, another feature is that the entire world would be realistically affected (drastically) by the appearance of super powered beings and whatever other sci-fi elements are introduced.

Also the stories take place in real-time with the characters changing over time and events have a lasting effect on the world and characters.

VEI used a few of these elements, but not consistently. They were not hard sci-fi. They were definitely superhero fantasy in the same realm of Marvel and DC.

To answer the initial question, a hard sci-fi approach set in the modern day would just use the modern world as the springboard for whatever the sci-fi premise/world-changing event would be.

A lot of comics since the 90's have used elements of hard sci-fi/realism (even Youngblood and Wildc.a.t.s were attempting to) so that it's not a novel approach anymore. I think 'grim and gritty' realism has pretty much become the default. But no one is taking that extra step to realize a truly hard sci-fi, real-time superhero universe. The only people who seemed to have the interest, passion, and opportunity to pull that off were Jim Shooter (out of comics) and Mark Gruenwald (passed in 1996, RIP).

The higher sciences are basically embracing sci-fi as stopgaps to explain why the math disagrees with their janky models. Things like dark matter, supersymmetry, Linnean extinctions, quantum superpositions, even the Big Bang theory is rotted-through with these gods-of-the-gaps.

Satchels with tesseracts inside them...

[ManofTheAtom]

The higher sciences are basically embracing sci-fi as stopgaps to explain why the math disagrees with their janky models. Things like dark matter, supersymmetry, Linnean extinctions, quantum superpositions, even the Big Bang theory is rotted-through with these gods-of-the-gaps.

Oh for sure, I'm no science absolutist. Even in science fiction, the distinction between what's considered 'hard' and 'soft' can get very murky and almost meaningless in many instances.

But in this case, talking about superhero comic book universes, there can be distinctions made between the 'Marvel' approach where contradictory super sciences, magic systems, alien races, time travel, etc. are all introduced and have no realistic effect on the overall world, and the 'New Univese'/Pre-Unity Valiant approach that is trying to rigorously explain and control these fantastic elements to maintain the illusion of realism.

I'm not saying that's the only way to make good comics. There are plenty of great comics that have a softer fantasy approach. I think VEI falls on the more realistic side of the spectrum, but taken as a whole it's more similar to Marvel than pre-Unity Valiant.

Yeah. One thing that really took me aback was the alien world Divinity and the other two Cosmonauts found themselves in. That was definitely more Marvel-esque than VALIANT-esque.

[Ryan]

Yeah. One thing that really took me aback was the alien world Divinity and the other two Cosmonauts found themselves in. That was definitely more Marvel-esque than VALIANT-esque.

I think it gets hard to maintain the realism with so many different writers and series going at once. Like do the magic concepts in Justin Jordan's Shadowman really fit in the same world as Harbinger? Maybe they do, I don't remember, but eventually when every writer is taking a different approach to 'science vs fantasy' it becomes impossible to reconcile. It's much easier to do in a single series like Squadron Superme, Watchmen, The Boys, etc.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah. One thing that really took me aback was the alien world Divinity and the other two Cosmonauts found themselves in. That was definitely more Marvel-esque than VALIANT-esque.

I think it gets hard to maintain the realism with so many different writers and series going at once. Like do the magic concepts in Justin Jordan's Shadowman really fit in the same world as Harbinger? Maybe they do, I don't remember, but eventually when every writer is taking a different approach to 'science vs fantasy' it becomes impossible to reconcile. It's much easier to do in a single series like Squadron Superme, Watchmen, The Boys, etc.

Doing magic in a realistic setting is definitely possible. It's called Magic Realism. Look at the work of Del Toro, particularly Pan's Labyrinth, for an example of that.

[Ryan]

Yeah. One thing that really took me aback was the alien world Divinity and the other two Cosmonauts found themselves in. That was definitely more Marvel-esque than VALIANT-esque.

I think it gets hard to maintain the realism with so many different writers and series going at once. Like do the magic concepts in Justin Jordan's Shadowman really fit in the same world as Harbinger? Maybe they do, I don't remember, but eventually when every writer is taking a different approach to 'science vs fantasy' it becomes impossible to reconcile. It's much easier to do in a single series like Squadron Superme, Watchmen, The Boys, etc.

Doing magic in a realistic setting is definitely possible. It's called Magic Realism. Look at the work of Del Toro, particularly Pan's Labyrinth, for an example of that.

No doubt, I'm just saying it's easier to do in a single work or a series written by the same author. There's tons of sci-fi/fantasy books that do it. Introduce a magic/super-science system with rules and limitations, then strictly adhere to those rules in the story. It gets more difficult to keep that consistent when you have a bunch of different writers and series all coming out at the same time.

Like the magic in Shadowman might work really well in its own series, but does it contradict with the way magic and science are portrayed in Harbinger or X-O? That's where it starts to get difficult.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah. One thing that really took me aback was the alien world Divinity and the other two Cosmonauts found themselves in. That was definitely more Marvel-esque than VALIANT-esque.

I think it gets hard to maintain the realism with so many different writers and series going at once. Like do the magic concepts in Justin Jordan's Shadowman really fit in the same world as Harbinger? Maybe they do, I don't remember, but eventually when every writer is taking a different approach to 'science vs fantasy' it becomes impossible to reconcile. It's much easier to do in a single series like Squadron Superme, Watchmen, The Boys, etc.

Doing magic in a realistic setting is definitely possible. It's called Magic Realism. Look at the work of Del Toro, particularly Pan's Labyrinth, for an example of that.

No doubt, I'm just saying it's easier to do in a single work or a series written by the same author. There's tons of sci-fi/fantasy books that do it. Introduce a magic/super-science system with rules and limitations, then strictly adhere to those rules in the story. It gets more difficult to keep that consistent when you have a bunch of different writers and series all coming out at the same time.

Like the magic in Shadowman might work really well in its own series, but does it contradict with the way magic and science are portrayed in Harbinger or X-O? That's where it starts to get difficult.

Ah, that's what editors in chief and/or chief creative directors are supposed to address.

Just like artists are given character sheets to know how to draw the characters, writers should be provided with the same kind of guidelines for how the world works.

TV series do it in the form of bibles.

[Chiclo]

This whole debate has gotten repetitive, but the way I take it is 'the world outside your window' is another way of saying 'hard sci-fi'.

Hard sci-fi is a more rigorous approach to science fiction where all of the fantastical elements of the story are explained using our current understanding of science and logic.

When applied to a comic book superhero universe, another feature is that the entire world would be realistically affected (drastically) by the appearance of super powered beings and whatever other sci-fi elements are introduced.

Also the stories take place in real-time with the characters changing over time and events have a lasting effect on the world and characters.

VEI used a few of these elements, but not consistently. They were not hard sci-fi. They were definitely superhero fantasy in the same realm of Marvel and DC.

To answer the initial question, a hard sci-fi approach set in the modern day would just use the modern world as the springboard for whatever the sci-fi premise/world-changing event would be.

A lot of comics since the 90's have used elements of hard sci-fi/realism (even Youngblood and Wildc.a.t.s were attempting to) so that it's not a novel approach anymore. I think 'grim and gritty' realism has pretty much become the default. But no one is taking that extra step to realize a truly hard sci-fi, real-time superhero universe. The only people who seemed to have the interest, passion, and opportunity to pull that off were Jim Shooter (out of comics) and Mark Gruenwald (passed in 1996, RIP).

The higher sciences are basically embracing sci-fi as stopgaps to explain why the math disagrees with their janky models. Things like dark matter, supersymmetry, Linnean extinctions, quantum superpositions, even the Big Bang theory is rotted-through with these gods-of-the-gaps.

Satchels with tesseracts inside them...

I could have sworn that that satchel was magical and it was never explained canonically as a tessaract.

A tessaract is just a shape. Creating one, making it mobile within our three spatial dimensions, that is magic.

[ManofTheAtom]

Satchels with tesseracts inside them...

I could have sworn that that satchel was magical and it was never explained canonically as a tessaract.

A tessaract is just a shape. Creating one, making it mobile within our three spatial dimensions, that is magic.

In Shadowman #2, Dox directly quoted Clarke's third law to Jack, and categorically declared that "magic is science".

From that point forward, as it pertains to Dinesh' VALIANT, magic must be considered to be science even if not directly stated as so. Thus, the satchel is a tesseract, not that dissimilar from Doctor Who's TARDIS.

RCO025_1469433197.jpg

[Chiclo]

If it was not otherwise stated to be a tessaract, it is presumptive to asume that a tessaract is the only explanation.

It could be a glome. It could be a doorway, a portal to elsewhere in this universe or to hyperspace. There could be some kind of space dilation, not that the satchel is bigger on the inside, but rather things are smaller in there or there is just more of in there than there should be. Or it could just be magic.

Do plattitudes mouthed by a crackpot in early VEI reflect physical laws and limitations in pre-Unity VH1?

Even if all magic is science, that is not definitive that the satchel holds a tessaract or any other higher-dimensional manifold accessible from and capable of storing three-dimensional items. Lots of other possibilities.

[Chiclo]

I cannot believe that I am arguing about the floojiggity tessaract in a satchel in the year of our Lord 2023. It is like the last 15 years didn’t happen.

[Ryan]

I cannot believe that I am arguing about the floojiggity tessaract in a satchel in the year of our Lord 2023. It is like the last 15 years didn’t happen.

Full circle.

[Ryan]

Do platitudes mouthed by a crackpot in early VEI reflect physical laws and limitations in pre-Unity VH1?

This needs to be somebody's signature or perhaps a T-shirt?

[Ryan]

Ah, that's what editors in chief and/or chief creative directors are supposed to address.

Just like artists are given character sheets to know how to draw the characters, writers should be provided with the same kind of guidelines for how the world works.

TV series due it in the form of bibles.

That's true, in theory. Do you think modern comic companies do any of those things? Do you think VEI did? We're in the era of the auteurs.

[ManofTheAtom]

I cannot believe that I am arguing about the floojiggity tessaract in a satchel in the year of our Lord 2023. It is like the last 15 years didn’t happen.

Picking up from where things left off...

[ManofTheAtom]

If it was not otherwise stated to be a tessaract, it is presumptive to asume that a tessaract is the only explanation.

It could be a glome. It could be a doorway, a portal to elsewhere in this universe or to hyperspace. There could be some kind of space dilation, not that the satchel is bigger on the inside, but rather things are smaller in there or there is just more of in there than there should be. Or it could just be magic.

Do plattitudes mouthed by a crackpot in early VEI reflect physical laws and limitations in pre-Unity VH1?

Even if all magic is science, that is not definitive that the satchel holds a tessaract or any other higher-dimensional manifold accessible from and capable of storing three-dimensional items. Lots of other possibilities.

Yes, it could be any of those.

[ManofTheAtom]

Ah, that's what editors in chief and/or chief creative directors are supposed to address.

Just like artists are given character sheets to know how to draw the characters, writers should be provided with the same kind of guidelines for how the world works.

TV series due it in the form of bibles.

That's true, in theory. Do you think modern comic companies do any of those things? Do you think VEI did? We're in the era of the auteurs.

I doubt DC and Marvel do. Grant Morrison got an editor fired off the X-Men comics for doing his job.

I imagine Dinesh might have, though.

[Chiclo]

If it was not otherwise stated to be a tessaract, it is presumptive to asume that a tessaract is the only explanation.

It could be a glome. It could be a doorway, a portal to elsewhere in this universe or to hyperspace. There could be some kind of space dilation, not that the satchel is bigger on the inside, but rather things are smaller in there or there is just more of in there than there should be. Or it could just be magic.

Do plattitudes mouthed by a crackpot in early VEI reflect physical laws and limitations in pre-Unity VH1?

Even if all magic is science, that is not definitive that the satchel holds a tessaract or any other higher-dimensional manifold accessible from and capable of storing three-dimensional items. Lots of other possibilities.

Yes, it could be any of those.

Finally.

[ManofTheAtom]

If it was not otherwise stated to be a tessaract, it is presumptive to asume that a tessaract is the only explanation.

It could be a glome. It could be a doorway, a portal to elsewhere in this universe or to hyperspace. There could be some kind of space dilation, not that the satchel is bigger on the inside, but rather things are smaller in there or there is just more of in there than there should be. Or it could just be magic.

Do plattitudes mouthed by a crackpot in early VEI reflect physical laws and limitations in pre-Unity VH1?

Even if all magic is science, that is not definitive that the satchel holds a tessaract or any other higher-dimensional manifold accessible from and capable of storing three-dimensional items. Lots of other possibilities.

Yes, it could be any of those.

Finally.

Magic is just an advanced form of science, heh.

[Ryan]

Ah, that's what editors in chief and/or chief creative directors are supposed to address.

Just like artists are given character sheets to know how to draw the characters, writers should be provided with the same kind of guidelines for how the world works.

TV series due it in the form of bibles.

That's true, in theory. Do you think modern comic companies do any of those things? Do you think VEI did? We're in the era of the auteurs.

I doubt DC and Marvel do. Grant Morrison got an editor fired off the X-Men comics for doing his job.

I imagine Dinesh might have, though.

Maybe they did, but did anybody follow them? It seems like maybe David Aja did some character design for early VEI.



Compared to the series artist version:



For me, I would have liked if everything stuck closer to the more simplified realism of Aja.

[ManofTheAtom]

Ah, that's what editors in chief and/or chief creative directors are supposed to address.

Just like artists are given character sheets to know how to draw the characters, writers should be provided with the same kind of guidelines for how the world works.

TV series due it in the form of bibles.

That's true, in theory. Do you think modern comic companies do any of those things? Do you think VEI did? We're in the era of the auteurs.

I doubt DC and Marvel do. Grant Morrison got an editor fired off the X-Men comics for doing his job.

I imagine Dinesh might have, though.

Maybe they did, but did anybody follow them? It seems like maybe David Aja did some character design for early VEI.



Compared to the series artist version:



For me, I would have liked if everything stuck closer to the more simplified realism of Aja.

Absolutely.

[Oxmyx]

... unhinged blue-hair life-vitriol....
...reflective wordplay intellectualism.

... but I wish you were more informed.

I feel that's directed at Antos. I still don't know what she did, no one will tell me.

Captained a sinking ship. She was ... left holding the bag ... of ... penguins.

It sounds similar to the period after Birthquake ... the Turok/Shadowman crossover.

One, shzyang is being such a *SQUEE* for no good reason.

And two: There's a Turok/Shadowman crossover?!? And I knew nothing about it? Can someone please add a link to the cover image!

[Sunlight on Snow]

There's a Turok/Shadowman crossover?!? And I knew nothing about it? Can someone please add a link to the cover image!

It's just a one-shot....

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/Turok/Shadowman_Vol_1_1

[lorddunlow]

You haven't read most of Valiant.

old Valiant and acclaim is like saying I read every Stan Lee comic so I know Marvel as well as anyone now get your damn Miles Morales and your Knull off my lawn

Do you have any idea how many hundreds of comics that was? "Not most of VALIANT"?

How many comics did VEI publish during Dinesh' time compared to what Voyager and Acclaim published?

Yes, you've mentioned. So many times. Read the hundreds of Valiant comics you've missed. The Dinesh era is perfection and you'll have more fun on these boards.

Was it hundreds? You sure?

I'm sure being on this board and the Facebook page was a lot of fun during the time Dinesh was in charge. I'd have been here and there then, but I was banned from here at the time and not allowed there because I was told that people didn't want to post there if I did...

If we're counting variants, then VEI wins by like a million books.



Sent from my Pixel Fold using Tapatalk

[lorddunlow]

If it was not otherwise stated to be a tessaract, it is presumptive to asume that a tessaract is the only explanation.

It could be a glome. It could be a doorway, a portal to elsewhere in this universe or to hyperspace. There could be some kind of space dilation, not that the satchel is bigger on the inside, but rather things are smaller in there or there is just more of in there than there should be. Or it could just be magic.

Do plattitudes mouthed by a crackpot in early VEI reflect physical laws and limitations in pre-Unity VH1?

Even if all magic is science, that is not definitive that the satchel holds a tessaract or any other higher-dimensional manifold accessible from and capable of storing three-dimensional items. Lots of other possibilities.

Yes, it could be any of those.

Finally.

Magic is just an advanced form of science, heh.

Technology/science is just magic that is thoroughly explained.

Seriously - electromagnetism and gravity are magic. No one really knows what they are.

Sent from my Pixel Fold using Tapatalk

[ManofTheAtom]

You haven't read most of Valiant.

old Valiant and acclaim is like saying I read every Stan Lee comic so I know Marvel as well as anyone now get your damn Miles Morales and your Knull off my lawn

Do you have any idea how many hundreds of comics that was? "Not most of VALIANT"?

How many comics did VEI publish during Dinesh' time compared to what Voyager and Acclaim published?

Yes, you've mentioned. So many times. Read the hundreds of Valiant comics you've missed. The Dinesh era is perfection and you'll have more fun on these boards.

Was it hundreds? You sure?

I'm sure being on this board and the Facebook page was a lot of fun during the time Dinesh was in charge. I'd have been here and there then, but I was banned from here at the time and not allowed there because I was told that people didn't want to post there if I did...

If we're counting variants, then VEI wins by like a million books.



Sent from my Pixel Fold using Tapatalk

Heh.