Collectors vs Readers

[ManofTheAtom]

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

Yeah, and that fizzled out. I think that the most they ever got was three Superman GNs from JMS.

3 Batman, 3 Wonder Woman, 3 Superman, 2 Green Lantern, 2 Teen Titans.

Ah, ok. But the line still fizzled out, no?

[Chiclo]

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

Yeah, and that fizzled out. I think that the most they ever got was three Superman GNs from JMS.

3 Batman, 3 Wonder Woman, 3 Superman, 2 Green Lantern, 2 Teen Titans.

Ah, ok. But the line still fizzled out, no?

So every example of something even remotely similar to what you want for Valiant, has fizzled out?

[ManofTheAtom]

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

Yeah, and that fizzled out. I think that the most they ever got was three Superman GNs from JMS.

3 Batman, 3 Wonder Woman, 3 Superman, 2 Green Lantern, 2 Teen Titans.

Ah, ok. But the line still fizzled out, no?

So every example of something even remotely similar to what you want for Valiant, has fizzled out?

When did I say I wanted VALIANT to emulate DC's Earth One novels? I've said more than once that I hope they don't.

[leonmallett]

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

Yeah, and that fizzled out. I think that the most they ever got was three Superman GNs from JMS.

3 Batman, 3 Wonder Woman, 3 Superman, 2 Green Lantern, 2 Teen Titans.

Ah, ok. But the line still fizzled out, no?

So every example of something even remotely similar to what you want for Valiant, has fizzled out?

I think you cross-read mine and MotA's posts.

For clarity, I said I could live with GNs, I didn't say that was what I wanted (but I would welcome it). I did outline that they offer a framework not available to 22 page periodicals, in the same way streaming shows can vary episode length to fit the story, rather than squeezing story to episode length. Linear television at some point is going to pass, and if digital sales ever gain the significant upper hand against print periodical sales, I would not be surprised to see marketplace changes for comics.

Action Comics #1, was 64 pages with 11 features. Comics have changed a lot since then, and I expect there will be another sea change as boomers and gen z increasingly dwindle in the readership.

[Chiclo]

I think I did. Sorry, MotA. My mistake.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think I did. Sorry, MotA. My mistake.

[TheFerg714]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

[TheFerg714]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

Idk, but I've never given a *SQUEE* about the collectability. I'm only in it for the stories. That said, I don't think VEI ever went overboard with that stuff.

[leonmallett]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

Idk, but I've never given a *SQUEE* about the collectability. I'm only in it for the stories. That said, I don't think VEI ever went overboard with that stuff.

Yeah,

[TheFerg714]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

[ManofTheAtom]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

They do, though. Specially if they distribute through Diamond, which they did, no?

[TheFerg714]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

They do, though. Specially if they distribute through Diamond, which they did, no?

I'm just saying that Valiant is allowed to do promotions and special releases, even if it may mean that it excludes people outside of America. It's unfortunate for foreign fans, but at the end of the day, anyone can get their hands on these issues. It just may cost a lot. (or you could just pirate them)

[ManofTheAtom]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

They do, though. Specially if they distribute through Diamond, which they did, no?

I'm just saying that Valiant is allowed to do promotions and special releases, even if it may mean that it excludes people outside of America. It's unfortunate for foreign fans, but at the end of the day, anyone can get their hands on these issues. It just may cost a lot. (or you could just pirate them)

I'll say this, being outside the US, I was pretty much the only one at my LCS that still got VALIANT during the Acclaim era, so I know how annoying it can be trying to find them. They only brought them for me, pretty much. Pre-order and all that. It sucks.

[leonmallett]

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

They do, though. Specially if they distribute through Diamond, which they did, no?

I'm just saying that Valiant is allowed to do promotions and special releases, even if it may mean that it excludes people outside of America. It's unfortunate for foreign fans, but at the end of the day, anyone can get their hands on these issues. It just may cost a lot. (or you could just pirate them)

Rai Plus edition 1 had scarce release in the UK.

I am not so solipsist to say they cannot do it; what I said after the second time was as a fan and a customer, the only way I could show my displeasure was to take a principled stand which I did. You may not understand that nuance.

[TheFerg714]

They did that, what... twice? You dropped VEI entirely because of two gimmicks? Keep in mind that HW2 #0 was easily obtainable if you bought Renegade #1-5. I don't really get the complaint at all tbh. You sound like the people that complain about Bad Idea being "too hard" to get your hands on, when in reality, it's not hard at all.

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

They do, though. Specially if they distribute through Diamond, which they did, no?

I'm just saying that Valiant is allowed to do promotions and special releases, even if it may mean that it excludes people outside of America. It's unfortunate for foreign fans, but at the end of the day, anyone can get their hands on these issues. It just may cost a lot. (or you could just pirate them)

Rai Plus edition 1 had scarce release in the UK.

I am not so solipsist to say they cannot do it; what I said after the second time was as a fan and a customer, the only way I could show my displeasure was to take a principled stand which I did. You may not understand that nuance.

I'm just saying your "principled stand" has no legs to stand on. You can do whatever you feel you have to do, of course, but your pov doesn't make much logical sense. You really dropped a whole publishing line, not because of story quality, but because they did a few little gimmicks that excluded non-Americans.

[leonmallett]

Three times, and scarcity was higher outside the USA than within the USA, so please do not judge with my choosing to take a principled decision just because your principles are different.

Remind me what the 3rd thing was... Legends of the Geomancer, HW2 #0, and...?

Valiant is an American company my guy. They have no obligation to make sure every other country can get every single issue.

They do, though. Specially if they distribute through Diamond, which they did, no?

I'm just saying that Valiant is allowed to do promotions and special releases, even if it may mean that it excludes people outside of America. It's unfortunate for foreign fans, but at the end of the day, anyone can get their hands on these issues. It just may cost a lot. (or you could just pirate them)

Rai Plus edition 1 had scarce release in the UK.

I am not so solipsist to say they cannot do it; what I said after the second time was as a fan and a customer, the only way I could show my displeasure was to take a principled stand which I did. You may not understand that nuance.

I'm just saying your "principled stand" has no legs to stand on. You can do whatever you feel you have to do, of course, but your pov doesn't make much logical sense. You really dropped a whole publishing line, not because of story quality, but because they did a few little gimmicks that excluded non-Americans.

My stance is simple: as an overseas customer I already pay more perbook (that is fine, it comes with living outside of the USA), but to specifically have relatively fewer of the chase story content books for non-USA stores was shabby IMHO, and therefore as a customer I chose to vote with my wallet. That is why I didn't follow Bad Idea despite some solid looking books.

My principle was simple: if a publisher demonstrates valuing me and other non-USA customers/fans less than a USA customer/fan (not equal, clearly less), then I will not support that publisher in continuing that approach. Atom reached out to me via PMs and I explained my position, that I would cease buying the monthlies and the hardcovers. I could see no other useful alternatives to express my displeasure as the Dino-era VEI did not offer a fair solution.

I am sorry you cannot seem to accept that people may have principles different to yours, and that you seem to struggle to accept that they may wish to stand by those principles however large or small you may perceive that action.

[TheFerg714]

My stance is simple: as an overseas customer I already pay more perbook (that is fine, it comes with living outside of the USA), but to specifically have relatively fewer of the chase story content books for non-USA stores was shabby IMHO, and therefore as a customer I chose to vote with my wallet. That is why I didn't follow Bad Idea despite some solid looking books.

My principle was simple: if a publisher demonstrates valuing me and other non-USA customers/fans less than a USA customer/fan (not equal, clearly less), then I will not support that publisher in continuing that approach. Atom reached out to me via PMs and I explained my position, that I would cease buying the monthlies and the hardcovers. I could see no other useful alternatives to express my displeasure as the Dino-era VEI did not offer a fair solution.

I am sorry you cannot seem to accept that people may have principles different to yours, and that you seem to struggle to accept that they may wish to stand by those principles however large or small you may perceive that action.

Look, I'm not trying to argue forever, and I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but I just wanted to challenge you a bit because I think you're making a mountain out of an molehill.

Rai #1 Plus is neat, but it's just a bunch of throwaway shorts. Legends of the Geomancer is cool, but let's be honest, even people in America had trouble getting their hands on that one. Then there's HW2 #0, which was awesome, but it's just one issue that was eventually collected in the deluxe editions. (Keep in mind that all of these are readily available online) I just don't think these three measly examples are nearly enough reason to drop a whole publisher, especially when they were firing on all cylinders in every other regard.

[leonmallett]

My stance is simple: as an overseas customer I already pay more perbook (that is fine, it comes with living outside of the USA), but to specifically have relatively fewer of the chase story content books for non-USA stores was shabby IMHO, and therefore as a customer I chose to vote with my wallet. That is why I didn't follow Bad Idea despite some solid looking books.

My principle was simple: if a publisher demonstrates valuing me and other non-USA customers/fans less than a USA customer/fan (not equal, clearly less), then I will not support that publisher in continuing that approach. Atom reached out to me via PMs and I explained my position, that I would cease buying the monthlies and the hardcovers. I could see no other useful alternatives to express my displeasure as the Dino-era VEI did not offer a fair solution.

I am sorry you cannot seem to accept that people may have principles different to yours, and that you seem to struggle to accept that they may wish to stand by those principles however large or small you may perceive that action.

Look, I'm not trying to argue forever, and I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but I just wanted to challenge you a bit because I think you're making a mountain out of an molehill.

Rai #1 Plus is neat, but it's just a bunch of throwaway shorts. Legends of the Geomancer is cool, but let's be honest, even people in America had trouble getting their hands on that one. Then there's HW2 #0, which was awesome, but it's just one issue that was eventually collected in the deluxe editions. (Keep in mind that all of these are readily available online) I just don't think these three measly examples are nearly enough reason to drop a whole publisher, especially when they were firing on all cylinders in every other regard.

I am not sure why you are so invested in why someone else chooses to stand by a principle they value even if you don't - please note I did not call for others to boycott VEI, I just chose to as I felt to not do so would be to tacitly express approval of their (to me) *SQUEE* marketing gimmicks with story content.

[Ryan]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I don't think people have to be one or the other. Readers can be collectors and vice versa.

I'm definitely more of a reader but I can also appreciate the fun of completing a collection of a book I love, or the thrill of the hunt for those hard to find issues. Collecting has been a part of the fun of comics for a long time. Of coarse it can be taken too far, and we've all seen that.

Always worth remembering that long-term collectability usually comes from demand created by people actually enjoying reading the comics. Short-term bubbles created by a hot style or manufactured scarcity don't usually produce long-term demand or interest.

[Ryan]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

To answer your question, I would say that all depends on how good the stories are and if they connect with a wider audience. The irony of that is if they do take off with readers again, that will only attract more speculators and collectors .

If we just see more comics that are in the mediocre range, that won't bring in many readers or speculators. I doubt many outside of the Valiant bubble will even notice.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I don't think people have to be one or the other. Readers can be collectors and vice versa.

I'm definitely more of a reader but I can also appreciate the fun of completing a collection of a book I love, or the thrill of the hunt for those hard to find issues. Collecting has been a part of the fun of comics for a long time. Of coarse it can be taken too far, and we've all seen that.

Always worth remembering that long-term collectability usually comes from demand created by people actually enjoying reading the comics. Short-term bubbles created by a hot style or manufactured scarcity don't usually produce long-term demand or interest.

Well, I meant Collectors in the sense of people that just buy to resell and not to read. I should have said Speculators. My bad.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

To answer your question, I would say that all depends on how good the stories are and if they connect with a wider audience. The irony of that is if they do take off with readers again, that will only attract more speculators and collectors .

If we just see more comics that are in the mediocre range, that won't bring in many readers or speculators. I doubt many outside of the Valiant bubble will even notice.

Indeed.

[Ryan]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I don't think people have to be one or the other. Readers can be collectors and vice versa.

I'm definitely more of a reader but I can also appreciate the fun of completing a collection of a book I love, or the thrill of the hunt for those hard to find issues. Collecting has been a part of the fun of comics for a long time. Of coarse it can be taken too far, and we've all seen that.

Always worth remembering that long-term collectability usually comes from demand created by people actually enjoying reading the comics. Short-term bubbles created by a hot style or manufactured scarcity don't usually produce long-term demand or interest.

Well, I meant Collectors in the sense of people that just buy to resell and not to read. I should have said Speculators. My bad.

Right on, yeah they suck. I think a lot of the VALIANT fans over the years have gotten way more into the collecting side of things, but it came initially from loving what they read. Speculating (and companies catering to that crowd) has been terrible for the industry. Let's hope it goes away.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I don't think people have to be one or the other. Readers can be collectors and vice versa.

I'm definitely more of a reader but I can also appreciate the fun of completing a collection of a book I love, or the thrill of the hunt for those hard to find issues. Collecting has been a part of the fun of comics for a long time. Of coarse it can be taken too far, and we've all seen that.

Always worth remembering that long-term collectability usually comes from demand created by people actually enjoying reading the comics. Short-term bubbles created by a hot style or manufactured scarcity don't usually produce long-term demand or interest.

Well, I meant Collectors in the sense of people that just buy to resell and not to read. I should have said Speculators. My bad.

Right on, yeah they suck. I think a lot of the VALIANT fans over the years have gotten way more into the collecting side of things, but it came initially from loving what they read. Speculating (and companies catering to that crowd) has been terrible for the industry. Let's hope it goes away.

Fingers crossed.