Harbinger Wars 2

[ManofTheAtom]

From what I've cobbled together, seems as if Harbinger Wars 2 was the tipping point for most.

What I've gathered is that it was rewritten after DMG acquired VEI and Dinesh left as creative director, resulting in it changing plot points and such.

Am I right, or am I missing something?

In short, that makes it the VEI version of VH 1's Rai #0 (which was changed and redrawn following Shooter's departure) and, in some way maybe, VH 2's Troublemakers #19 (which was a condensed version of the Final Solution crossover event).

Would that be a fair statement/comparison?

See, this is the ironic part,

Most of us most likely than not got into VALIANT after Rai #0, and, indeed, many of us probably hold it in very high regard DESPITE IT contradicting Shooter's original vision for VALIANT.

Can't the same be true of Harbinger Wars 2? Or, at the very least, could be true had there been an accompanying creative vision attached to it like there was after Shooter left?

[TheFerg714]

From what I've cobbled together, seems as if Harbinger Wars 2 was the tipping point for most.

Yea, but there was still plenty of good stuff published during the DMG era, especially the stragglers that were produced before the buyout, most importantly, The Life and Death of Toyo Harada. Other noteworthy continuing series were Ninja-K, Shadowman, and Kindt's X-O.

What I've gathered is that it was rewritten after DMG acquired VEI and Dinesh left as creative director, resulting in it changing plot points and such.

Am I right, or am I missing something?

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Most of us most likely than not got into VALIANT after Rai #0, and, indeed, many of us probably hold it in very high regard DESPITE IT contradicting Shooter's original vision for VALIANT.

I got into Valiant in 2014, but I also hold Rai #0 in high regard.

Can't the same be true of Harbinger Wars 2? Or, at the very least, could be true had there been an accompanying creative vision attached to it like there was after Shooter left?

I mean it's possible, in another hypothetical timeline, that DMG changed HW2 for the better, but that's not the timeline we live in. In our reality, HW2 kind of sucked, and will never be subject to reappraisal.

[ManofTheAtom]

From what I've cobbled together, seems as if Harbinger Wars 2 was the tipping point for most.

Yea, but there was still plenty of good stuff published during the DMG era, especially the stragglers that were produced before the buyout, most importantly, The Life and Death of Toyo Harada. Other noteworthy continuing series were Ninja-K, Shadowman, and Kindt's X-O.

What I've gathered is that it was rewritten after DMG acquired VEI and Dinesh left as creative director, resulting in it changing plot points and such.

Am I right, or am I missing something?

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Most of us most likely than not got into VALIANT after Rai #0, and, indeed, many of us probably hold it in very high regard DESPITE IT contradicting Shooter's original vision for VALIANT.

I got into Valiant in 2014, but I also hold Rai #0 in high regard.

Can't the same be true of Harbinger Wars 2? Or, at the very least, could be true had there been an accompanying creative vision attached to it like there was after Shooter left?

I mean it's possible, in another hypothetical timeline, that DMG changed HW2 for the better, but that's not the timeline we live in. In our reality, HW2 kind of sucked, and will never be subject to reappraisal.

Interesting. Thanks.

[syzhang28]

The loss of Heiserrer alone says everything to me. He was the biggest opportunity at the time and he was going to write half the story. I can't see how you lose him and his half without the whole story changing.

[ManofTheAtom]

The loss of Heiserrer alone says everything to me. He was the biggest opportunity at the time and he was going to write half the story. I can't see how you lose him and his half without the whole story changing.

Of course.

[Ryan]

In short, that makes it the VEI version of VH 1's Rai #0 (which was changed and redrawn following Shooter's departure) and, in some way maybe, VH 2's Troublemakers #19 (which was a condensed version of the Final Solution crossover event).

WTH happened in Troublemakers #19? I totally missed that. I wasn't picking it up at the time, since they weren't OG VALIANT characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

In short, that makes it the VEI version of VH 1's Rai #0 (which was changed and redrawn following Shooter's departure) and, in some way maybe, VH 2's Troublemakers #19 (which was a condensed version of the Final Solution crossover event).

WTH happened in Troublemakers #19? I totally missed that. I wasn't picking it up at the time, since they weren't OG VALIANT characters.

The issue condensed what was supposed to be a huge cross over told across several titles into just 22 pages.

In the story, VH 2 Toyo Harada uses a Manowar armor built by Unity to take out the VALIANT heroes, destroy G&G, etc. There is even a poison that robs the immortals of their immortality.

[Ryan]

In short, that makes it the VEI version of VH 1's Rai #0 (which was changed and redrawn following Shooter's departure) and, in some way maybe, VH 2's Troublemakers #19 (which was a condensed version of the Final Solution crossover event).

WTH happened in Troublemakers #19? I totally missed that. I wasn't picking it up at the time, since they weren't OG VALIANT characters.

The issue condensed what was supposed to be a huge cross over told across several titles into just 22 pages.

In the story, VH 2 Toyo Harada uses a Manowar armor built by Unity to take out the VALIANT heroes, destroy G&G, etc. There is even a poison that robs the immortals of their immortality.

Wow, I remember hearing about Final Solution but I didn't know that part.

[ManofTheAtom]

In short, that makes it the VEI version of VH 1's Rai #0 (which was changed and redrawn following Shooter's departure) and, in some way maybe, VH 2's Troublemakers #19 (which was a condensed version of the Final Solution crossover event).

WTH happened in Troublemakers #19? I totally missed that. I wasn't picking it up at the time, since they weren't OG VALIANT characters.

The issue condensed what was supposed to be a huge cross over told across several titles into just 22 pages.

In the story, VH 2 Toyo Harada uses a Manowar armor built by Unity to take out the VALIANT heroes, destroy G&G, etc. There is even a poison that robs the immortals of their immortality.

Wow, I remember hearing about Final Solution but I didn't know that part.

Not surprised. Unless you read the comic or discuss it with others that have, it be difficult to know what's in it, heh. And given how low the print runs probably were by then (I think I got the only one that got to the store I got my VALIANTs from back then, and they had three or four stores), that can be difficult.

[Ryan]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

[ManofTheAtom]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

If any art exists, maybe it'll find its way into fans' hands, like art from Shooter's Rai #0 and the epilogue of Unity 2000 have.

[Ryan]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

If any art exists, maybe it'll find its way into fans' hands, like art from Shooter's Rai #0 and the epilogue of Unity 2000 have.

Exactly. Who do we have to pester?

[ManofTheAtom]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

If any art exists, maybe it'll find its way into fans' hands, like art from Shooter's Rai #0 and the epilogue of Unity 2000 have.

Exactly. Who do we have to pester?

Sonicdan?

[Ryan]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

If any art exists, maybe it'll find its way into fans' hands, like art from Shooter's Rai #0 and the epilogue of Unity 2000 have.

Exactly. Who do we have to pester?

Sonicdan?

Getting the old Yahoo Groups crew together heh. I imagine asking Heiserrer and/or Allen (Raul Allen?) on twitter or email wouldn't hurt either.

[JCP]

Put me down for a page.

[ManofTheAtom]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

If any art exists, maybe it'll find its way into fans' hands, like art from Shooter's Rai #0 and the epilogue of Unity 2000 have.

Exactly. Who do we have to pester?

Sonicdan?

Getting the old Yahoo Groups crew together heh. I imagine asking Heiserrer and/or Allen (Raul Allen?) on twitter or email wouldn't hurt either.

Definitely. Did no one from VEI ever join this board, other than Dinesh/Dino?

[ManofTheAtom]

Put me down for a page.

[Ryan]

Put me down for a page.

Unfortunately I'm not in the art collecting game, I was just thinking if we could see some scans of whatever was produced. Script, notes, thumbnails, concepts, pencils, whatever they would be willing or able to share.

[ManofTheAtom]

Put me down for a page.

Unfortunately I'm not in the art collecting game, I was just thinking if we could see some scans of whatever was produced. Script, notes, thumbnails, concepts, pencils, whatever they would be willing or able to share.

It shouldn't be impossible to find, long as they didn't sign NDAs or the like. That artwork, if it exists, will eventually make its way to collector's hands. It's unavoidable.

[Ryan]

Put me down for a page.

Unfortunately I'm not in the art collecting game, I was just thinking if we could see some scans of whatever was produced. Script, notes, thumbnails, concepts, pencils, whatever they would be willing or able to share.

It shouldn't be impossible to find, long as they didn't sign NDAs or the like. That artwork, if it exists, will eventually make its way to collector's hands. It's unavoidable.

Yup, and maybe if its stuff the creators still have, the NDAs have long since expired. I really don't know.

[ManofTheAtom]

Put me down for a page.

Unfortunately I'm not in the art collecting game, I was just thinking if we could see some scans of whatever was produced. Script, notes, thumbnails, concepts, pencils, whatever they would be willing or able to share.

It shouldn't be impossible to find, long as they didn't sign NDAs or the like. That artwork, if it exists, will eventually make its way to collector's hands. It's unavoidable.

Yup, and maybe if its stuff the creators still have, the NDAs have long since expired. I really don't know.

Yeah.

[grendeljd]

That's pretty much right. No one really knows how much of an effect DMG had on the final product. What's clear it that VEI had different plans. It was initially supposed to be $4, double-sized issues. The first half (by Kindt/Giorello) would be about the overall "war," and the big players in it. The second half (by Heiserrer/Allen) would star the Secret Weapons and be about the "frontlines" of the war.

Has Heiserrer or anyone else ever talked about what the plan would have been? If there was a script leak or even some of the unpublished pages, concepts, etc., that could spark some ideas for an alternate VEI history where all the VEI storylines got continued to their proper conclusions.

Man, I had forgotten that whole abandoned idea for HW2 with Heiserrer doing half of the story’s per book… that would have been so great, I loved his Secret Weapons series. If only…

The loss of Heiserrer alone says everything to me. He was the biggest opportunity at the time and he was going to write half the story. I can't see how you lose him and his half without the whole story changing.

Agreed. It was a big loss at the time, but as I recall he did that to show support for Dinesh and opposition to how the DMG aggressive takeover happened.