What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

JCP wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:08:55 am
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:38:50 am
Ryan wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:47:55 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:38:39 pm While I do think there needs to be a core to VALIANT, it might be time to infuse it with new characters. Maybe even revive some of the original ideas from VH 2. Stagnation equals death, and that's all we'll get by continuing to build VALIANT around the same 18 titles introduced in the '90s.

They need new ideas that expand on what they already have.

I wouldn't mind seeing Troublemakers and Trinity Angels done right.
No disagreement from me. The actual characters and concepts used are secondary to the execution by far. What I think has really been missed is how the early VALIANT comics were executed and what they placed emphasis on. I think actually establishing the tone and building a solid readership of one comic would be the best way, then expanding from there organically. Easier said than done.
Definitely.

Mulling over your question, so far I've come up with the idea that the core of the VALIANT Universe (sans Solar, Magnus, and Turok) should be the first three original VALIANT heroes,

Rai
Harbinger
X-O Manowar.

Everything should be built around them.

With that in mind, the rest can be broken as follows,

The Immortal Family

Eternal Warrior
Timewalker
Archer & Armstrong

The solo heroes

Shadowman
Bloodshot
Ninjak
Geomancer
The Second Life of Dr. Mirage
The Visitor

Team books

Armorines
HARD Corps
Secret Weapons
Psi-Lords
And Divinity? I’d add to the top three.
I was thinking of "Classic VALIANT", but Divnity definitely fits in the solo heroes section.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Let us say that a revival of VALIANT should start with three titles centered on the first three original VALIANT heroes.

X-O Manowar (present-day solo hero)
Harbinger (present-day team book)
Rai (future-set solo hero).

From there, the line can expand with three (?) additional books every six months.

The second wave could potentially be spun-off from the initial three series.

Armorines (present-day team book). Could be a mini-series.
The Troublemakers (present-day team book). The goal would be to expand on the idea of the Corporate Wars that become the Harbinger Wars by presenting other players in the conflict.
Bloodshot (present-day solo hero). As opposed to a spin-off set in the future, this spin-off from Rai would be a prequel that explores the origins of the Blood of Heroes (an element from the original VALIANT I don't remember being part of VEI (I didn't keep up with the comics as much as I wish I had, though).

A third wave could/should potentially start to integrate newer or entirely new series that appeal to newer audiences, but still with a dash of the classic.

So, maybe something like

Eternal Warrior (present-day classic solo hero)
Divinity (present-day new solo hero)
Something entirely new (preferably set in the future to continue expanding on what Rai builds).

Maybe something along these lines.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:38:50 am Definitely.

Mulling over your question, so far I've come up with the idea that the core of the VALIANT Universe (sans Solar, Magnus, and Turok) should be the first three original VALIANT heroes,

Rai
Harbinger
X-O Manowar.

Everything should be built around them.

With that in mind, the rest can be broken as follows,

The Immortal Family

Eternal Warrior
Timewalker
Archer & Armstrong

The solo heroes

Shadowman
Bloodshot
Ninjak
Geomancer
The Second Life of Dr. Mirage
The Visitor

Team books

Armorines
HARD Corps
Secret Weapons
Psi-Lords
So let's say you could only start with 3 books, and you had to establish the whole universe with just those, with no guarantee that the line would ever expand. I think you're right that Rai, X-O, and Harbinger are about as solid of 3 to start with as any.

I would especially think that if it were 2010 and VEI hadn't happened yet. But looking at it right now, X-O is already on his 4th series from VEI, the last 2 being soft reboots. If we went back to start from the beginning again, it would be a rehash of VEI 1st series which was already a rehash of VH1. I like the idea of an older, wiser Aric who's travelled some of the cosmos, but that misses out on the best part of his story, him being the ultimate fish out of water, barbarian in the modern day. He's such a good character, you couldn't keep him on the sidelines for long, but I feel like he's a little played out at this point.

The other thing that's played out IMO is Harbinger vs Harada. I think there has to be a moratorium on any use of Harada. The VEI reboot rehashed so many of big VH1 plot lines that any new start would have to go in a different direction to be fresh IMO.

Like I said a robust story bible would have to be created that would establish back story, mythology, rules of magic/time travel, etc. Then a big story would hopefully spin out of that, and that would determine which characters to start with.

In order to do a reboot that wouldn’t negate every other iteration, some sort of multiverse concept would have to be embraced.
One way I’ve thought of to do that is this: When Jack jumped off the building he died. This changed the future. In 1999 the Darque Power won and the universe (VH1) was consumed. However, Alpha and Omega had created a ripple effect of instability in the multiverse, and the 1999 event only created more wild anomalies and iterations. Now the original Jack Boniface has woken up in the present day (VH?) and has to piece the answers together, trying to find the old heroes (mostly variations) and fighting the re-emerging Darque Power that's trying to finish the job from 1999.
Not saying that's the only way or even the best way, just one way that would interest me. This (or a similar) way would allow for the return of old versions and new variations.

With this theoretical back story, my 3 titles would be:
Shadowman - would run by itself for a while to slowly re-establish the world, each issue also being smaller adventures that establish a new supporting cast and enemies in New Orleans

Eternal Warrior – Also from the original VH1 with lost memories trying to piece together what happened. International action-adventure based in Asia, also involving the other immortals and discovering their true origin.

Ninjak – spinning from EW, Ninjak is Colin Chan King, half English half Chinese, grew up in Hong Kong. Father was a Weaponeer, a secret military society stretching back to King Arthur. Tech Martial Arts with Ninjitsu taken more seriously.

Sorry for the novel, I’m traveling right now so haven’t been able to check the board as much but this thread has given me a lot to think about. I appreciate the discussion.

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Just to be clear, I don't think the plot points or specific characters are as important as going back to the principles of Pre-Unity VALIANT storytelling (which would be a whole nother thread lol).

Basically a grown-up version of 60s and 80s Marvel. Focus is on story and clear storytelling over fancy illustration. The opposite of how Image has trained people to think comic art has to be splashy and sensationalist to be considered 'good'.

The breakthrough is when you realize Don Perlin's art is also great for opposite reasons of Image artists: it performs its function of giving the reader everything they need to experience the story in their mind, without being distracted by extravagant line work and overwrought page layouts. 'Have a good story, and tell it well.' Let the reader experience the 'movie in the mind.'

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:21:04 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:38:50 am Definitely.

Mulling over your question, so far I've come up with the idea that the core of the VALIANT Universe (sans Solar, Magnus, and Turok) should be the first three original VALIANT heroes,

Rai
Harbinger
X-O Manowar.

Everything should be built around them.

With that in mind, the rest can be broken as follows,

The Immortal Family

Eternal Warrior
Timewalker
Archer & Armstrong

The solo heroes

Shadowman
Bloodshot
Ninjak
Geomancer
The Second Life of Dr. Mirage
The Visitor

Team books

Armorines
HARD Corps
Secret Weapons
Psi-Lords
So let's say you could only start with 3 books, and you had to establish the whole universe with just those, with no guarantee that the line would ever expand. I think you're right that Rai, X-O, and Harbinger are about as solid of 3 to start with as any.

I would especially think that if it were 2010 and VEI hadn't happened yet. But looking at it right now, X-O is already on his 4th series from VEI, the last 2 being soft reboots. If we went back to start from the beginning again, it would be a rehash of VEI 1st series which was already a rehash of VH1. I like the idea of an older, wiser Aric who's travelled some of the cosmos, but that misses out on the best part of his story, him being the ultimate fish out of water, barbarian in the modern day. He's such a good character, you couldn't keep him on the sidelines for long, but I feel like he's a little played out at this point.

The other thing that's played out IMO is Harbinger vs Harada. I think there has to be a moratorium on any use of Harada. The VEI reboot rehashed so many of big VH1 plot lines that any new start would have to go in a different direction to be fresh IMO.

Like I said a robust story bible would have to be created that would establish back story, mythology, rules of magic/time travel, etc. Then a big story would hopefully spin out of that, and that would determine which characters to start with.

In order to do a reboot that wouldn’t negate every other iteration, some sort of multiverse concept would have to be embraced.
One way I’ve thought of to do that is this: When Jack jumped off the building he died. This changed the future. In 1999 the Darque Power won and the universe (VH1) was consumed. However, Alpha and Omega had created a ripple effect of instability in the multiverse, and the 1999 event only created more wild anomalies and iterations. Now the original Jack Boniface has woken up in the present day (VH?) and has to piece the answers together, trying to find the old heroes (mostly variations) and fighting the re-emerging Darque Power that's trying to finish the job from 1999.
Not saying that's the only way or even the best way, just one way that would interest me. This (or a similar) way would allow for the return of old versions and new variations.

With this theoretical back story, my 3 titles would be:
Shadowman - would run by itself for a while to slowly re-establish the world, each issue also being smaller adventures that establish a new supporting cast and enemies in New Orleans

Eternal Warrior – Also from the original VH1 with lost memories trying to piece together what happened. International action-adventure based in Asia, also involving the other immortals and discovering their true origin.

Ninjak – spinning from EW, Ninjak is Colin Chan King, half English half Chinese, grew up in Hong Kong. Father was a Weaponeer, a secret military society stretching back to King Arthur. Tech Martial Arts with Ninjitsu taken more seriously.

Sorry for the novel, I’m traveling right now so haven’t been able to check the board as much but this thread has given me a lot to think about. I appreciate the discussion.
I think introducing multiverses is when VALIANT'S problems started.

With VALIANT, there's always only been one reality. It started out as ours, with Phil Seleski, Erica Pierce, the people at the Edge, and the meltdown being the only fictional elements.

Phil then went back in time and changed reality, turning it into the VALIANT Universe we know. That is what *SQUEE* off Erica.

What VALIANT needs moving forward is that sort of thing again, but I am not in favor of a reboot. I think that a lot of what Dinesh did worked really well, and it might be petty to toss it out to replace it with a more accurate replica of VH-1.

I think it's possible to integrate all of them into a single narrative. Keep the VEI origins Dinesh oversaw and insert the tone and character arcs from the original VH1 (i.e. Obadiah Archer on his journey to become a prophet, etc).

Never address or bring up a multiverse.

I think using the "magic ink" from Unity 2000 as the inciting incident is doable. It just needs to be reconceptualized from "magic" into something else, like an advanced form of technology (something that was brought up in the VEI Shadowman reboot, that magic is an advanced form of technology.

Really dig into the idea that everything in the universe is energy, including matter, and that it can be changed.
Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

I think the best possible solution would be to bring in an "Evil Solar". One who has drank the comic book Kool-Aid and acts as a typical supervillain, using his abilities to alter reality on a molecular level to make things increasingly more comic booky.

The first indication of this would be X-O Manowar meeting Iron Man and using the Cosmic Cube to create the VH 2 reality.

Reconceptualize that to say that "Evil Solar" used his powers to bring the Marvel characters Aric interacted with to life, and he was the real power behind the Cosmic Cube (which would not be a real Cosmic Cube at all).

We saw Solar do this type of thing in the Jurgens run, in which he created an Earth with heroes that were knock-offs of the Justice Society and Justice League.

Loremaster and "Evil Solar" could be the same guy, a split from Phil Seleski created during a fanboy meltdown or something.

Like with the Cosmic Cube in the above example, the same could be true of the Magic Ink from Unity 2000.

Morningstar could also be something Loremaster/Evil Solar conjured up.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Let's think of the "Cosmic Cube" in X-O Manowar/Iron Man and the "Magic Ink" in Unity 2000 as the hand Solar gave Geoff in Unity. They were all extensions of himself with enough power to alter reality.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

It occurs to me that the best possible start for a revamp of the VALIANT Universe would be a series centered on the newest Geomancer.

It could be Tama, or it could even be a VEI version of Geoff McHenry.

S/he would be the eyes and ears of the audience as they embark on a journey to uncover the true nature of the VALIANT Universe.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:47:45 am I think introducing multiverses is when VALIANT'S problems started.

With VALIANT, there's always only been one reality. It started out as ours, with Phil Seleski, Erica Pierce, the people at the Edge, and the meltdown being the only fictional elements.

Phil then went back in time and changed reality, turning it into the VALIANT Universe we know. That is what *SQUEE* off Erica.

What VALIANT needs moving forward is that sort of thing again, but I am not in favor of a reboot. I think that a lot of what Dinesh did worked really well, and it might be petty to toss it out to replace it with a more accurate replica of VH-1.

I think it's possible to integrate all of them into a single narrative. Keep the VEI origins Dinesh oversaw and insert the tone and character arcs from the original VH1 (i.e. Obadiah Archer on his journey to become a prophet, etc).

Never address or bring up a multiverse.

I think using the "magic ink" from Unity 2000 as the inciting incident is doable. It just needs to be reconceptualized from "magic" into something else, like an advanced form of technology (something that was brought up in the VEI Shadowman reboot, that magic is an advanced form of technology.

Really dig into the idea that everything in the universe is energy, including matter, and that it can be changed.
I'm not a fan of multiverses either. I think over time it kills all the stakes and erodes the 'reality' of a fictional world. What does it matter if Peter Parker dies if I can just go over to Earth-79412 and find a new one who can be exactly the same?

Having said that my interpretation of Alpha and Omega is that Solar created a 'multiverse' by destroying his universe and creating the VALIANT universe (2 Phils, 2 timelines, 2 universes). Also the only way (IMO) to say all iterations of VALIANT are real, is to accept the idea of a multiverse like in Unity 2000.

Ultimately I agree, the best way forward would be to have only 1 universe, 1 iteration that truly matters.

Again, I don't think the specifics of the plotting or characters matter as much as the bigger picture issues. I don't think VALIANT can survive just trying to emulate what the big 2 in comics are doing.

In 1991 McFarlane, Liefeld, Lee, etc. were becoming all the rage and selling millions of copies. So everyone tried to copy them by doing splashier art, bigger panels, more 'exciting' and dynamic page layouts. At the same time VALIANT went the opposite direction, doing old-fashioned story based comics using grid panel layouts and outdated art styles, and it worked.

I feel like against the grain thinking and having people who truly love and appreciate the characters working on them is the only way to make VALIANT relevant again. A tiny comic book company should have more of a punk rock/garage band 'doing it for the love' feeling, not the feeling of cold corporate marketing schemes.
Last edited by Ryan on Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:19:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:47:45 am What VALIANT needs moving forward is that sort of thing again, but I am not in favor of a reboot. I think that a lot of what Dinesh did worked really well, and it might be petty to toss it out to replace it with a more accurate replica of VH-1.
Definitely, VH1 principles could be applied to the characters as they are now. I read VEI everything the first couple years but then I was only able to read here and there afterwards.

I'm obviously thinking about the future of VALIANT from the perspective of being a big fan of the 90's universe. I'd be curious to hear from some of the hardcore VEI fans on where they think the future of VALIANT should go. Would the dream be just having Kindt, Lemire, etc. pick up their storylines where they left off? Or something else?

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:36:43 am I think the best possible solution would be to bring in an "Evil Solar". One who has drank the comic book Kool-Aid and acts as a typical supervillain, using his abilities to alter reality on a molecular level to make things increasingly more comic booky.

The first indication of this would be X-O Manowar meeting Iron Man and using the Cosmic Cube to create the VH 2 reality.

Reconceptualize that to say that "Evil Solar" used his powers to bring the Marvel characters Aric interacted with to life, and he was the real power behind the Cosmic Cube (which would not be a real Cosmic Cube at all).

We saw Solar do this type of thing in the Jurgens run, in which he created an Earth with heroes that were knock-offs of the Justice Society and Justice League.

Loremaster and "Evil Solar" could be the same guy, a split from Phil Seleski created during a fanboy meltdown or something.

Like with the Cosmic Cube in the above example, the same could be true of the Magic Ink from Unity 2000.

Morningstar could also be something Loremaster/Evil Solar conjured up.
I do like how everything is a manifestation of Solar.

You have to remind me, the magic ink was used at the end of Unity 2000 to erase the multiverse/iterations? I have to dig up my pdf of the unpublished issues.

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:26:22 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:36:43 am I think the best possible solution would be to bring in an "Evil Solar". One who has drank the comic book Kool-Aid and acts as a typical supervillain, using his abilities to alter reality on a molecular level to make things increasingly more comic booky.

The first indication of this would be X-O Manowar meeting Iron Man and using the Cosmic Cube to create the VH 2 reality.

Reconceptualize that to say that "Evil Solar" used his powers to bring the Marvel characters Aric interacted with to life, and he was the real power behind the Cosmic Cube (which would not be a real Cosmic Cube at all).

We saw Solar do this type of thing in the Jurgens run, in which he created an Earth with heroes that were knock-offs of the Justice Society and Justice League.

Loremaster and "Evil Solar" could be the same guy, a split from Phil Seleski created during a fanboy meltdown or something.

Like with the Cosmic Cube in the above example, the same could be true of the Magic Ink from Unity 2000.

Morningstar could also be something Loremaster/Evil Solar conjured up.
I do like how everything is a manifestation of Solar.

You have to remind me, the magic ink was used at the end of Unity 2000 to erase the multiverse/iterations? I have to dig up my pdf of the unpublished issues.
Yeah, the magic ink destroyed the original VH 1 versions. But nothing says it cannot be reconceptualized to say that it changed them into the VEI versions.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:17:06 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:47:45 am What VALIANT needs moving forward is that sort of thing again, but I am not in favor of a reboot. I think that a lot of what Dinesh did worked really well, and it might be petty to toss it out to replace it with a more accurate replica of VH-1.
Definitely, VH1 principles could be applied to the characters as they are now. I read VEI everything the first couple years but then I was only able to read here and there afterwards.

I'm obviously thinking about the future of VALIANT from the perspective of being a big fan of the 90's universe. I'd be curious to hear from some of the hardcore VEI fans on where they think the future of VALIANT should go. Would the dream be just having Kindt, Lemire, etc. pick up their storylines where they left off? Or something else?
In the scenario I'm proposing, it wouldn't be quite as picking them up from they left off, but more as integrating them into the ongoing narrative of the VEI version.

Not undo anything, not ignore anything, but integrate the pieces of the VH 1 puzzle into the VEI puzzle.

Add more layers to it.

Like, add the layer to the VEI Archer & Armstrong version that Obadiah's parents were abusing kids, like they did in the original, but without ignoring anything that was done in the VEI version.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:41:20 pm In the scenario I'm proposing, it wouldn't be quite as picking them up from they left off, but more as integrating them into the ongoing narrative of the VEI version.

Not undo anything, not ignore anything, but integrate the pieces of the VH 1 puzzle into the VEI puzzle.

Add more layers to it.

Like, add the layer to the VEI Archer & Armstrong version that Obadiah's parents were abusing kids, like they did in the original, but without ignoring anything that was done in the VEI version.
That makes sense. I feel like that would be easier with some characters than others. I would have to read all of the VEI books again and take notes to remember all the differences. And I'd like to know from the VEI fans which parts of the characters or back stories they really feel are essential to the characters.

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:41:36 am
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:41:20 pm In the scenario I'm proposing, it wouldn't be quite as picking them up from they left off, but more as integrating them into the ongoing narrative of the VEI version.

Not undo anything, not ignore anything, but integrate the pieces of the VH 1 puzzle into the VEI puzzle.

Add more layers to it.

Like, add the layer to the VEI Archer & Armstrong version that Obadiah's parents were abusing kids, like they did in the original, but without ignoring anything that was done in the VEI version.
That makes sense. I feel like that would be easier with some characters than others. I would have to read all of the VEI books again and take notes to remember all the differences. And I'd like to know from the VEI fans which parts of the characters or back stories they really feel are essential to the characters.

Definitely.

For instance, you could not add Acher's parents killing him after he discovered what they were doing in VH 1 because it would contradict VEI.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by buff-beardo »

I want to see Solar, Magnus, and Turok in the next inevitable universe.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

buff-beardo wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:00:24 pm I want to see Solar, Magnus, and Turok in the next inevitable universe.
That would definitely be ideal.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:41:20 pm In the scenario I'm proposing, it wouldn't be quite as picking them up from they left off, but more as integrating them into the ongoing narrative of the VEI version.
Does anyone know (or care) what the ongoing VEI narrative is at this point? I feel like it's been completely muddled by the post-Dino books that have been all over the board with the continuity.
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:41:20 pm Not undo anything, not ignore anything, but integrate the pieces of the VH 1 puzzle into the VEI puzzle.
Add more layers to it.

Like, add the layer to the VEI Archer & Armstrong version that Obadiah's parents were abusing kids, like they did in the original, but without ignoring anything that was done in the VEI version.
I feel like in specific instances (like your Archer example) that can work, but what about all the instances where VEI and VH1 are completely contradictory?

My opinion is that there aren't that many people who care about continuing either continuity anymore. The best thing would be to boil the characters back down to their cores, try to truly understand what worked in 1991-93 and build a new universe based on those principles. Even tweaking the core characters to better fit the principles.

You might say that's exactly what VEI did, and I wouldn't disagree. They brought the characters into the modern comics era, and they succeeded at that.

The thing I would like to see now is comics that are really rooted in the style of VH1, but evolved. VH1 felt like you were reading a well-written novel unfolding a chapter at a time each week at the comic shop, and yet each issue also stood alone as a satisfying unit of story by itself.

To me, VH1 was an evolution of the 60's-80's Marvel comic. More mature and more complex without sacrificing the joy of monthly superhero comics, and without resorting to post-modern nihilism or gratuitous spectacle. Comics truly made to be read that rewarded re-readings instead of trying to cash in on the style of the moment. This is what I miss.

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:22:04 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:41:20 pm In the scenario I'm proposing, it wouldn't be quite as picking them up from they left off, but more as integrating them into the ongoing narrative of the VEI version.
Does anyone know (or care) what the ongoing VEI narrative is at this point? I feel like it's been completely muddled by the post-Dino books that have been all over the board with the continuity.
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:41:20 pm Not undo anything, not ignore anything, but integrate the pieces of the VH 1 puzzle into the VEI puzzle.
Add more layers to it.

Like, add the layer to the VEI Archer & Armstrong version that Obadiah's parents were abusing kids, like they did in the original, but without ignoring anything that was done in the VEI version.
I feel like in specific instances (like your Archer example) that can work, but what about all the instances where VEI and VH1 are completely contradictory?

My opinion is that there aren't that many people who care about continuing either continuity anymore. The best thing would be to boil the characters back down to their cores, try to truly understand what worked in 1991-93 and build a new universe based on those principles. Even tweaking the core characters to better fit the principles.

You might say that's exactly what VEI did, and I wouldn't disagree. They brought the characters into the modern comics era, and they succeeded at that.

The thing I would like to see now is comics that are really rooted in the style of VH1, but evolved. VH1 felt like you were reading a well-written novel unfolding a chapter at a time each week at the comic shop, and yet each issue also stood alone as a satisfying unit of story by itself.

To me, VH1 was an evolution of the 60's-80's Marvel comic. More mature and more complex without sacrificing the joy of monthly superhero comics, and without resorting to post-modern nihilism or gratuitous spectacle. Comics truly made to be read that rewarded re-readings instead of trying to cash in on the style of the moment. This is what I miss.
The goal would be to recapture that, but a new reboot would do more harm than good.

DC has continually been rebooting their characters for the last 20 years because Dan Didio decided that replicating the 1960s was better than sticking with the Modern Age of the '80s and '90s, and that turned into a continuous fiasco for them.

Revealing that the VEI iterations of the VALIANT characters are the same as the originals from VH 1 but "reborn" on account of their material existence being fundamentally changed on a molecular level would further differentiate VALIANT from DC and Marvel.

All you say you want back is a matter of tone and style more so than canon.

Keeping Archer as a member of the Dominion as opposed to the child of two priests that killed him wouldn't fundamentally alter that.

To answer your question as to what about the contradictions, in such scenario as this one VH 1 would win over VEI.
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:52:44 pm The goal would be to recapture that, but a new reboot would do more harm than good.

DC has continually been rebooting their characters for the last 20 years because Dan Didio decided that replicating the 1960s was better than sticking with the Modern Age of the '80s and '90s, and that turned into a continuous fiasco for them.

Revealing that the VEI iterations of the VALIANT characters are the same as the originals from VH 1 but "reborn" on account of their material existence being fundamentally changed on a molecular level would further differentiate VALIANT from DC and Marvel.

All you say you want back is a matter of tone and style more so than canon.

Keeping Archer as a member of the Dominion as opposed to the child of two priests that killed him wouldn't fundamentally alter that.

To answer your question as to what about the contradictions, in such scenario as this one VH 1 would win over VEI.
I get what you're saying, you prefer as streamlined a continuity as possible. That's cool. I agree that a reboot is usually the lazy way out for writers. It takes more work to read and integrate what has come before instead of just telling the story you want.

If contradictions will favor the VH1 continuity, there will be a lot of details from VEI that will be wiped out/ignored. Which is fine, there's no perfect solution to account for everything. The important thing in any scenario will be to grab the interest of readers and by the strength of the stories find a way to keep the readership growing .

I would personally love to read VH-Sacal :D Much preferable to the people who have been constantly hired who have to look up the VALIANT wiki when they get hired.

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:34:12 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:52:44 pm The goal would be to recapture that, but a new reboot would do more harm than good.

DC has continually been rebooting their characters for the last 20 years because Dan Didio decided that replicating the 1960s was better than sticking with the Modern Age of the '80s and '90s, and that turned into a continuous fiasco for them.

Revealing that the VEI iterations of the VALIANT characters are the same as the originals from VH 1 but "reborn" on account of their material existence being fundamentally changed on a molecular level would further differentiate VALIANT from DC and Marvel.

All you say you want back is a matter of tone and style more so than canon.

Keeping Archer as a member of the Dominion as opposed to the child of two priests that killed him wouldn't fundamentally alter that.

To answer your question as to what about the contradictions, in such scenario as this one VH 1 would win over VEI.
I get what you're saying, you prefer as streamlined a continuity as possible. That's cool. I agree that a reboot is usually the lazy way out for writers. It takes more work to read and integrate what has come before instead of just telling the story you want.

If contradictions will favor the VH1 continuity, there will be a lot of details from VEI that will be wiped out/ignored. Which is fine, there's no perfect solution to account for everything. The important thing in any scenario will be to grab the interest of readers and by the strength of the stories find a way to keep the readership growing .

I would personally love to read VH-Sacal :D Much preferable to the people who have been constantly hired who have to look up the VALIANT wiki when they get hired.
I wrote that Wiki!

Well, I wrote "a" Wiki. Was hired by Dinesh to do it. After it was taken down from their official site I moved it to Fandom, then later on someone from Fandom contacted me about their moving my entries to their VALIANT wiki.

I know some of my content was transferred over to their site but I don't know it was all of it. I don't think it was.

Mine only covered VH 1 except for Solar, Magnus, and Turok, and only the original characters introduced in VH 2.

https://the-book-of-geomancer.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Ryan »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:21:15 pm
Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:34:12 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:52:44 pm The goal would be to recapture that, but a new reboot would do more harm than good.

DC has continually been rebooting their characters for the last 20 years because Dan Didio decided that replicating the 1960s was better than sticking with the Modern Age of the '80s and '90s, and that turned into a continuous fiasco for them.

Revealing that the VEI iterations of the VALIANT characters are the same as the originals from VH 1 but "reborn" on account of their material existence being fundamentally changed on a molecular level would further differentiate VALIANT from DC and Marvel.

All you say you want back is a matter of tone and style more so than canon.

Keeping Archer as a member of the Dominion as opposed to the child of two priests that killed him wouldn't fundamentally alter that.

To answer your question as to what about the contradictions, in such scenario as this one VH 1 would win over VEI.
I get what you're saying, you prefer as streamlined a continuity as possible. That's cool. I agree that a reboot is usually the lazy way out for writers. It takes more work to read and integrate what has come before instead of just telling the story you want.

If contradictions will favor the VH1 continuity, there will be a lot of details from VEI that will be wiped out/ignored. Which is fine, there's no perfect solution to account for everything. The important thing in any scenario will be to grab the interest of readers and by the strength of the stories find a way to keep the readership growing .

I would personally love to read VH-Sacal :D Much preferable to the people who have been constantly hired who have to look up the VALIANT wiki when they get hired.
I wrote that Wiki!

Well, I wrote "a" Wiki. Was hired by Dinesh to do it. After it was taken down from their official site I moved it to Fandom, then later on someone from Fandom contacted me about their moving my entries to their VALIANT wiki.

I know some of my content was transferred over to their site but I don't know it was all of it. I don't think it was.

Mine only covered VH 1 except for Solar, Magnus, and Turok, and only the original characters introduced in VH 2.

https://the-book-of-geomancer.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page
Exactly, great work dude!

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:49:52 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:21:15 pm
Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:34:12 pm
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:52:44 pm The goal would be to recapture that, but a new reboot would do more harm than good.

DC has continually been rebooting their characters for the last 20 years because Dan Didio decided that replicating the 1960s was better than sticking with the Modern Age of the '80s and '90s, and that turned into a continuous fiasco for them.

Revealing that the VEI iterations of the VALIANT characters are the same as the originals from VH 1 but "reborn" on account of their material existence being fundamentally changed on a molecular level would further differentiate VALIANT from DC and Marvel.

All you say you want back is a matter of tone and style more so than canon.

Keeping Archer as a member of the Dominion as opposed to the child of two priests that killed him wouldn't fundamentally alter that.

To answer your question as to what about the contradictions, in such scenario as this one VH 1 would win over VEI.
I get what you're saying, you prefer as streamlined a continuity as possible. That's cool. I agree that a reboot is usually the lazy way out for writers. It takes more work to read and integrate what has come before instead of just telling the story you want.

If contradictions will favor the VH1 continuity, there will be a lot of details from VEI that will be wiped out/ignored. Which is fine, there's no perfect solution to account for everything. The important thing in any scenario will be to grab the interest of readers and by the strength of the stories find a way to keep the readership growing .

I would personally love to read VH-Sacal :D Much preferable to the people who have been constantly hired who have to look up the VALIANT wiki when they get hired.
I wrote that Wiki!

Well, I wrote "a" Wiki. Was hired by Dinesh to do it. After it was taken down from their official site I moved it to Fandom, then later on someone from Fandom contacted me about their moving my entries to their VALIANT wiki.

I know some of my content was transferred over to their site but I don't know it was all of it. I don't think it was.

Mine only covered VH 1 except for Solar, Magnus, and Turok, and only the original characters introduced in VH 2.

https://the-book-of-geomancer.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page
Exactly, great work dude!
Thanks!
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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:21:15 pm I wrote that Wiki!

Well, I wrote "a" Wiki. Was hired by Dinesh to do it. After it was taken down from their official site I moved it to Fandom, then later on someone from Fandom contacted me about their moving my entries to their VALIANT wiki.

I know some of my content was transferred over to their site but I don't know it was all of it. I don't think it was.

Mine only covered VH 1 except for Solar, Magnus, and Turok, and only the original characters introduced in VH 2.

https://the-book-of-geomancer.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page
Oh, that was/is you!

I'm the main admin and editor of valiant.fandom.com, besides MrBlonde.

IIRC, we only copied a handful of your summaries but never really had enough time to copy & paste them all one by one.

Needless to say we haven't done much anymore in recent years. Just like VEI. :? :lol:

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Re: What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

Post by Man-of-The-Atom »

Sunlight on Snow wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 5:07:38 am
Man-of-The-Atom wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:21:15 pm I wrote that Wiki!

Well, I wrote "a" Wiki. Was hired by Dinesh to do it. After it was taken down from their official site I moved it to Fandom, then later on someone from Fandom contacted me about their moving my entries to their VALIANT wiki.

I know some of my content was transferred over to their site but I don't know it was all of it. I don't think it was.

Mine only covered VH 1 except for Solar, Magnus, and Turok, and only the original characters introduced in VH 2.

https://the-book-of-geomancer.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page
Oh, that was/is you!

I'm the main admin and editor of valiant.fandom.com, besides MrBlonde.

IIRC, we only copied a handful of your summaries but never really had enough time to copy & paste them all one by one.

Needless to say we haven't done much anymore in recent years. Just like VEI. :? :lol:
Lol.

Awesome, nice to meet you.

I'd love it if you copied the rest. I'm very proud of the work I did on them. Some more than others, of course. I really like the Rai and Shadowman summaries for sure. I tried to frame them as Heroes' Journeys.
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