Why do comics fans say Captain America would be ashamed...?

[Sven the Returned]

With all due my respects i heard it a lot and it's so childish. When there is a conflict about some issue to use fictional charcater as someone to look up to...

[Cyberstrike]

The whole thing with Steve Rogers becoming Captain Hydra wasn't even his fault he was brainwashed by the Red Skull. Or are we talking about something else?

[Sven the Returned]

The whole thing with Steve Rogers becoming Captain Hydra wasn't even his fault he was brainwashed by the Red Skull. Or are we talking about something else?

Something else. When yiou have an argument about the culture of comic books some people legit say fictional caped characters should be our IRL role models.

[Cyberstrike]

The whole thing with Steve Rogers becoming Captain Hydra wasn't even his fault he was brainwashed by the Red Skull. Or are we talking about something else?

Something else. When yiou have an argument about the culture of comic books some people legit say fictional caped characters should be our IRL role models.

Sorry about the confusion.

The simple truth is that is true to some degree and has been since Action Comics #1 debuted back in the late 1930s.

I mean I will admit that Optimus Prime was a role model for me when I was kid and still is to certain degree, the same with Superman and Spider-Man. Now I will say that my parents and grandparents were greater role models for me but I also have to admit that a some of my moral and values come from and/or were changed by fictional characters.

Now I can see that people want Captain America (or at least the MCU version of the character) to be a role model for their kids because the way Marvel has positioned him basically as what the Christopher Reeve Superman movies were to my generation.

Now again IMHO family should be the major role models first and foremost but I do think some people it gets thrown way out of whack and that is why stuff like the Captain Hydra arc was such a major blow to them. I think some fans (not a lot thankfully) were really certain that Marvel was going to let him stay that way forever.

IMHO I do think fictional characters are role models but parents should be the first and major role models and if the parents and/or the family suck (and lets be perfectly honest there are a LOT of crappy and stupid parents and/or families out there), then fictional role models have to fill in. Now I don't know what Captain America should be ashamed about, he is the most moral character in the movies, and in the comics he is going to have to his redemption arc and it will most likely conclude in a big "anniversary" issue.

[Wodwulf Seaxaning]

I like Captain America - frankly having him go Hydra annoyed me. But I figured he'd come back but I just got sick and tired of Marvel & their stupid events & replacing all the classic characters. I actually liked how they had Falcon be Captain America, it made sense in the story line. Hell I liked how they made Ms. Marvel who she is now though I got bored with the series as I couldn't connect with the characters. The only Marvel comic I read is Spider-Man: Miles Morales.

That all said, I cannot understand why anyone would see a fictional hero as a role model, that is just stupid. Again my issue with Marvel has to the stupid universe wide events & out of control character replacement going on. In Captain America it worked but I was irked with them magically de-aging Steve & giving him back his powers, them making him magically a Hydra secret agent. I said enough of that crap, I can't deal with the constant rebooting within the story. Let Steve die & replace him, but do it organically - can Marvel do that? No. They have to make everything convoluted that it even drives Die Hard fans away. This is a BIG reason I'm now a Valiant comics fan, good stories & characters that don't change drastically all the time.

[WrathOfArmstrong]

I think a lot of the Big Two's characters carry a lot of baggage and fan interpretation. There are batman books (but mostly movies) where I angrily shake my fist and declare 'that's not my batman!'

With regards to hydra, and it has felt this way a lot, It just seems Marvel doesn't know how to come up with a good Cap story most of the time, so they go for big twists. I rolled my eyes when I heard, but imagined it would play itself out. I wasn't going to start reading Captain America because he switched to Hydra for some storyline.

I know it's got to be hard keeping a character interesting monthly for decades. The benefit of Valiant so far, and unfortunate for those who want more monthlies, is their patience. They didn't go out and find another writer to finish Dysart's Imperium (since that's being asked about again). We don't even have the next Savage appearance lined up. When does Rai continue? No Eternal warrior on the slate? Just an Armstrong One Shot? Argh.

But they've made some bold moves. Shadowman End Times. Aric ending up on another planet (with no true explanation to why over the last 8 issues), Bloodshot Reborn. But with their world being new to a lot of us, it's easier for us to accept the story rather than notice some gimmicky twist meant to sell a lot of issues.

I read the classic XO omnibus before the 2012 run and it was a shock. I'd really liked those first 30 issues, so it took a while to warm up to the elements that didn't carry over from the original.


It's tough being a fan sometimes, because we want fresh stories and characters should evolve, but the longer we're a fan the more precious our vision of the character becomes.

[greg]

... the longer we're a fan the more precious our vision of the character becomes.

You just have to wait about 2,000 years, then ask, "What Would Steve Rogers Do?"

That way, people will take you seriously.

[Wodwulf Seaxaning]

It's tough being a fan sometimes, because we want fresh stories and characters should evolve, but the longer we're a fan the more precious our vision of the character becomes.

I get that, but I guess since I was more of an independent comic fan than a die hard Marvel or DC fan, I am more forgiving for the changing characters - to me its because such things make sense from a story telling point of view. But Marvel went from making some good story based reasons for the changes (pre-Hydra & post-Legacy) Captain America, Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel thing but the Cho/Hulk & death of Banner story line seemed ham-fisted as was the RiRi Ironheart/ Tony coma story line. I like RiRi but was hoping that Tony would be a legitimate mentor.

Marvel just can't seem to let a story-line take time & grow organically & the whole "we-have-to-have-a-hero-for-everyone-now" BS just don't work. I like diverse characters, that isn't an issue for me - some older fans yes, but not me; have you read "Wet Moon or Shadoweyes" by Sophia (Ross) Campbell? Queers, POC & female characters are the focus with great character development. It can be done, but going we are going to replace our core characters right now to be diverse - is insulting. There are *SQUEE* fans who get all butt hurt over the changes for the wrong reasons - how dare you ruin my favorite characters/comic book. I do have to give DC props how they handled their reboot; I just only like the Batman books.

With Valiant I get to follow interesting characters without the idiotic crossover events & reboots to make $$$. With the Eternal Warrior, his reboot makes sense to me - he died & the Earth no longer needed him; but another planet/dimension did (I'll assume as I have yet to read the Wrath of the Eternal Warrior). The changes between Bloodshot 2012 - Book of Death & Bloodshot Reborn follow (in my opinion) a organic progression that I can understand. You have the same thing with Harbinger - Imperium - to Harbinger Renegades from what I read about them. I like VIE right now, will I ever give DC & Marvel a chance in the future? It is likely; just depends on how things develop in the future.

[TheeBaldMoose]

... the longer we're a fan the more precious our vision of the character becomes.

You just have to wait about 2,000 years, then ask, "What Would Steve Rogers Do?"

That way, people will take you seriously.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I saw this post!

[Sven the Returned]

It's tough being a fan sometimes, because we want fresh stories and characters should evolve, but the longer we're a fan the more precious our vision of the character becomes.

I get that, but I guess since I was more of an independent comic fan than a die hard Marvel or DC fan, I am more forgiving for the changing characters - to me its because such things make sense from a story telling point of view. But Marvel went from making some good story based reasons for the changes (pre-Hydra & post-Legacy) Captain America, Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel thing but the Cho/Hulk & death of Banner story line seemed ham-fisted as was the RiRi Ironheart/ Tony coma story line. I like RiRi but was hoping that Tony would be a legitimate mentor.

Marvel just can't seem to let a story-line take time & grow organically & the whole "we-have-to-have-a-hero-for-everyone-now" BS just don't work. I like diverse characters, that isn't an issue for me - some older fans yes, but not me; have you read "Wet Moon or Shadoweyes" by Sophia (Ross) Campbell? Queers, POC & female characters are the focus with great character development. It can be done, but going we are going to replace our core characters right now to be diverse - is insulting. There are *SQUEE* fans who get all butt hurt over the changes for the wrong reasons - how dare you ruin my favorite characters/comic book. I do have to give DC props how they handled their reboot; I just only like the Batman books.

With Valiant I get to follow interesting characters without the idiotic crossover events & reboots to make $$$. With the Eternal Warrior, his reboot makes sense to me - he died & the Earth no longer needed him; but another planet/dimension did (I'll assume as I have yet to read the Wrath of the Eternal Warrior). The changes between Bloodshot 2012 - Book of Death & Bloodshot Reborn follow (in my opinion) a organic progression that I can understand. You have the same thing with Harbinger - Imperium - to Harbinger Renegades from what I read about them. I like VIE right now, will I ever give DC & Marvel a chance in the future? It is likely; just depends on how things develop in the future.

Eternal Warrior is cool but i would prefer a clearer idea of what he does. i read him anyways.

[Wodwulf Seaxaning]

Eternal Warrior is cool but i would prefer a clearer idea of what he does. i read him anyways.

I'll read Eternal Warrior as soon as I can afford the first two GNs since my local library only has the 3rd one & the Wrath of Eternal Warrior GNs. So I cannot comment on his story-line beyond what I've heard of the post-Book of Death aftermath.

I just got the notice of my Bloodshot vol. 3 Harbringer Wars GN has shipped & Vol 2 is in at the Library so I can get caught up on the 2012 Bloodshot series. I am enjoying Bloodshot Reborn but I do want to catch up to his back story, before I finish Reborn. Then comes Bloodshot U.S.A & my pre-order of Bloodshot Salvation vol 1 GN. Hmmm can anyone say, Bloodshot fan?

[WrathOfArmstrong]

Marvel just can't seem to let a story-line take time & grow organically quote]

I think that's it right there. It's easier to believe a character change if it is developed over time rather than hamfisted. If for months they started showing Cap doing something that we weren't sure about and then the reveal came it would probably be better received. But instead it's a 'news' article that told most of us. As if now we needed to rush out and buy the book so that we could believe their audacity.

Marvel has done this for a long time, it's like they invented click bait plot twists.

VEI seems to be killing it with their forethought on a lot of stuff. That's exactly why I'm here.

Definitely check out Wrath of Eternal Warrior. It snowballs into one of the best stories VEI has put out. IMHO. I wasn't a big fan of Gilad's until I read that book--he was the 'stiff/stern brother' to two very likable guys. I read all 3 trades in a single night.

[Wodwulf Seaxaning]

Marvel they'll start slow occasionally but then go hamfisted then next. I blame Marvel for the event mania that has gripped them. One event after another, there is no time to let things develop. Let Cap (as you said) slowly doing shady things out of character, has his closest friends worry about these odd behaviors. Personally I liked how the worked through him losing his abilities & aged; forcing him to give up the shield & Falcon take it up. Even if they chose to eventually replace the Falcon with a new Cap (maybe a female one) & did it organically I am sure that most Cap fans like me would would embrace the change but NOPE, Marvel can't do that.

One of my biggest gripes is how they are doing the changes - it seems rushed & clumsy. Ms. Marvel works, as they just shifted Danvers to Captain Marvel (I am not fan of the changes to her) but they did organically introduce the new Ms. Marvel. I won't get into the garbage pile that is the Avengers (another of my favorite family of books turned into D-list garbage - Squirrel Girl, is just part of that mess). I am sad about the X-books too, the stupid mini events just keep things from finding its flow. Don't get me on Wolverine either - Logan had the perfect send off, well that is shot to hell too.

I love how Valiant takes the long view & allows their creators the room to craft great enduring stories. The events instead of mussing up things instead seamlessly meld with the story arcs & bring new potential to the books. The only title I've heard anything negative about is Shadowman & that seems to because the issues in vol 3 had six writers before Milligan jumped in to finish the book (Valiant dropped the ball on that title) but I've been enjoying everything else they have put out so far that I've read. I hope that the Shadowman reboot gets a strong writer & artist for his run.

I got my notice that Harbinger #2 has shipped, now I can start that series too.