X-O 1 1:500 Print Run Speculation

[TheeBaldMoose]

Question: is a CGC 9.6 brushed metal variant valued higher than an unknown raw? I might make my first ever submission to CGC today at C2E2 (in person, even!) and I'm not quite sure if I've got a 9.6 or a 9.8 here.

There was a 9.6 on ebay that ended at just above $500, so I don't think the value is much (or any) higher.

And if you are going to do that, you might as well get Matt Kindt to sign that bad boy, I know I would!!!

[agent_graves]

How much will the gold variant auction go for?

$177.50 plus shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182498528305?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I went into my shop as usual on Wednesday, and they had a surprise waiting for me. They said a Valiant salesperson visited them last Wed after I came in and purchased the Brushed Metal cover (which is now on its way to DBS - triple boxed!). He gave them an extra goody, and I could have it at no charge.

That's what I'm talking bout...

[kjjohanson]

As of today, I am tracking 29 copies that have been sold on eBay.

There are 8 copies for sale, including the (presently only) CGC 9.8 Signature Series copy.

I bought the one below, but returned it because it wasn't NM/MT as listed. There were some fingerprints on the back cover and a couple of indentations, and there were a few blemishes on the front cover. I'm guessing it would be a 9.4 at best.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-O-Manowar-1-C ... true&rt=nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nycjadie]

Thx for noting.

[Sunlight on Snow]

As of today, I am tracking 29 copies that have been sold on eBay.

There are 8 copies for sale, including the (presently only) CGC 9.8 Signature Series copy.

I bought the one below, but returned it because it wasn't NM/MT as listed. There were some fingerprints on the back cover and a couple of indentations, and there were a few blemishes on the front cover. I'm guessing it would be a 9.4 at best.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-O-Manowar-1-C ... true&rt=nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is exactly why I haven't bought a copy yet.

Being in Germany it would be such a pain in the a$$ to spend $500-600 plus an additional $100-200 (on priority shipping, custom fee, and taxes) and not receive a MINT copy! (Less than) NM and dirty fingerprints just isn't good enough for such an investment.

Thanks for sharing.

[kjjohanson]

Thx for noting.

I initially read this as "Thx for nothing" and was wondering what the deal with that was.

[kjjohanson]

For those that might be interested, images of the book I mentioned:

Indentations


Fingerprints:


Not sure if that color loss is actual damage/defect, but didn't like the look of it:


Hard to see in a pic, but there's an area to the right of the "M" that's a little dark. Not sure what that is

[nycjadie]

Thx for noting.

I initially read this as "Thx for nothing" and was wondering what the deal with that was.

[OhioValiantNut]

[quote="kjjohanson"For those that might be interested, images of the book I mentioned:
[/quote]


That's Mint (as in 9.8)?!!!

... well, by common 'bay raw grading standards I guess it is.

[kjjohanson]

[quote="kjjohanson"For those that might be interested, images of the book I mentioned:

That's Mint (as in 9.8)?!!!

... well, by common 'bay raw grading standards I guess it is. [/quote]
The listing didn't explicitly state "9.8", but it did say "NM/M" which is the same thing if you mean it to refer to the generally accepted grading system.

[DirtbagSailor]

100% correct.

"MINT" has a specific meaning. It's not as subjective as "AWESOME" slab, or "LOOKS GOOD TO ME...".

In 2010, eBay seller alan_dershowitz wrote;

SUMMARY: "Mint" means perfect, if the item's not literally in perfect shape, it's not mint.
Hello sellers, have you ever stopped and wondered what the word "MINT" means when you use it? As in "this item is MINT in box." The word gets used all the time, but often incorrectly. This guide is a plea for item description accuracy.

The term "mint" as an adjective was coined (no pun intended) by numismatists to indicate that a coin looked as if it had just been minted. Other collectors quickly adopted the term. Unlike terms such as "good" or "excellent" which could mean different things to different people, "mint" has a very precise meaning. An object described as in "MINT CONDITION" means, literally, that the item looks as if it just came off the assembly line in the factory; that there is not a single defect of any kind in the product. It is in the BEST possible condition a product can possibly be in.
Because this term is used by collectors, a seller should be aware that what an ordinary person may perceive as perfect may not be sufficient. For example, condition of the box of toys and video games are very important. While a crease in the laminate of the surface of a carboard box may not even be visible to the ordinary buyer or uneducated seller, it is of concern to the collector. Again, because this is a term derived from the collector community, there is an expectation that when it is used, the seller is indicating that he/she can properly evaluate the "collectible" condition of the item. In practice on eBay this almost never seems to be the case.

I'm tired of winning bids on video games where the box is torn or crushed, or the manual has the corner dogeared. When I can get a smashed Legend of Zelda box anywhere for a dollar, why would I bid 35 for it on here? There is an expectation that when an item is described as perfect, the item is going to in fact have nothing wrong with it. It wastes everyone's time and causes bad feelings all around. It wastes my time if I'm searching for mint products and have to filter through the obviously wrong descriptions; it wastes time for both of us when I have to send you a comment asking you if the description really means what it says. If a product is not in perfect condition, please do not advertise it as mint.

I can see how some of you may think that this article and the concern with perfection is being anal-retentive. I actually agree with you! Anal-retentiveness is the essence of effective collecting and you are using our language, so please be courteous and help us feed our addiction with less heartbreak.

Thank you and good night.

[Sunlight on Snow]

100% correct.

"MINT" has a specific meaning. It's not as subjective as "AWESOME" slab, or "LOOKS GOOD TO ME...".

In 2010, eBay seller alan_dershowitz wrote;

SUMMARY: "Mint" means perfect, if the item's not literally in perfect shape, it's not mint.
Hello sellers, have you ever stopped and wondered what the word "MINT" means when you use it? As in "this item is MINT in box." The word gets used all the time, but often incorrectly. This guide is a plea for item description accuracy.

The term "mint" as an adjective was coined (no pun intended) by numismatists to indicate that a coin looked as if it had just been minted. Other collectors quickly adopted the term. Unlike terms such as "good" or "excellent" which could mean different things to different people, "mint" has a very precise meaning. An object described as in "MINT CONDITION" means, literally, that the item looks as if it just came off the assembly line in the factory; that there is not a single defect of any kind in the product. It is in the BEST possible condition a product can possibly be in.
Because this term is used by collectors, a seller should be aware that what an ordinary person may perceive as perfect may not be sufficient. For example, condition of the box of toys and video games are very important. While a crease in the laminate of the surface of a carboard box may not even be visible to the ordinary buyer or uneducated seller, it is of concern to the collector. Again, because this is a term derived from the collector community, there is an expectation that when it is used, the seller is indicating that he/she can properly evaluate the "collectible" condition of the item. In practice on eBay this almost never seems to be the case.

I'm tired of winning bids on video games where the box is torn or crushed, or the manual has the corner dogeared. When I can get a smashed Legend of Zelda box anywhere for a dollar, why would I bid 35 for it on here? There is an expectation that when an item is described as perfect, the item is going to in fact have nothing wrong with it. It wastes everyone's time and causes bad feelings all around. It wastes my time if I'm searching for mint products and have to filter through the obviously wrong descriptions; it wastes time for both of us when I have to send you a comment asking you if the description really means what it says. If a product is not in perfect condition, please do not advertise it as mint.

I can see how some of you may think that this article and the concern with perfection is being anal-retentive. I actually agree with you! Anal-retentiveness is the essence of effective collecting and you are using our language, so please be courteous and help us feed our addiction with less heartbreak.

Thank you and good night.

Also, a collectible is either in perfect condition or not - it just can't be in "Near Mint/Mint (NM/M)" condition!!!

[kjjohanson]

100% correct.

"MINT" has a specific meaning. It's not as subjective as "AWESOME" slab, or "LOOKS GOOD TO ME...".

In 2010, eBay seller alan_dershowitz wrote;

SUMMARY: "Mint" means perfect, if the item's not literally in perfect shape, it's not mint.
Hello sellers, have you ever stopped and wondered what the word "MINT" means when you use it? As in "this item is MINT in box." The word gets used all the time, but often incorrectly. This guide is a plea for item description accuracy.

The term "mint" as an adjective was coined (no pun intended) by numismatists to indicate that a coin looked as if it had just been minted. Other collectors quickly adopted the term. Unlike terms such as "good" or "excellent" which could mean different things to different people, "mint" has a very precise meaning. An object described as in "MINT CONDITION" means, literally, that the item looks as if it just came off the assembly line in the factory; that there is not a single defect of any kind in the product. It is in the BEST possible condition a product can possibly be in.
Because this term is used by collectors, a seller should be aware that what an ordinary person may perceive as perfect may not be sufficient. For example, condition of the box of toys and video games are very important. While a crease in the laminate of the surface of a carboard box may not even be visible to the ordinary buyer or uneducated seller, it is of concern to the collector. Again, because this is a term derived from the collector community, there is an expectation that when it is used, the seller is indicating that he/she can properly evaluate the "collectible" condition of the item. In practice on eBay this almost never seems to be the case.

I'm tired of winning bids on video games where the box is torn or crushed, or the manual has the corner dogeared. When I can get a smashed Legend of Zelda box anywhere for a dollar, why would I bid 35 for it on here? There is an expectation that when an item is described as perfect, the item is going to in fact have nothing wrong with it. It wastes everyone's time and causes bad feelings all around. It wastes my time if I'm searching for mint products and have to filter through the obviously wrong descriptions; it wastes time for both of us when I have to send you a comment asking you if the description really means what it says. If a product is not in perfect condition, please do not advertise it as mint.

I can see how some of you may think that this article and the concern with perfection is being anal-retentive. I actually agree with you! Anal-retentiveness is the essence of effective collecting and you are using our language, so please be courteous and help us feed our addiction with less heartbreak.

Thank you and good night.

Also, a collectible is either in perfect condition or not - it just can't be in "Near Mint/Mint (NM/M)" condition!!!

That makes sense if you're thinking about it outside of the context of the 10-point grading scale. But the top of the grading scale breaks down like this:
10 – GM (Gem Mint)
9.9 – MT (Mint)
9.8 – NM/MT
9.6 – NM+
9.4 – NM (Near Mint)
9.2 – NM-

So basically, the seller was indicating that the book was a 9.8 (or else using their own grading scale, but they didn't stipulate that), or a book that straddles the grades between Mint and Near Mint.

Regarding the "Mint" definition, since we're dealing with paper and printing rather than minting with comics, something that's brand new isn't always perfect, as any serious comic collector knows, which is why even the grades near the top of the scale can be a little subjective. Different collectors might evaluate something like a tiny corner bindery tear slightly differently, even though that's a common result of the normal printing process.

[nycjadie]

Wanted to share my thoughts on this for the 3 people who might care;)

I have 2 raw copies of the metal book. One is what I believe is 9.8,and the other 9.4. I have been looking at copies on eBay and have come to the conclusion that this is a condition sensitive book and that the 9.8 prices Chain all and Bloodshot have offered this book are extremely reasonable.

First you have the metal print, each of which is handmade. There are the obvious skips and imperfections you might encounter with that, but those edges are sharp, and I see side scrapes where small bits of the color have been sheared off by what I believe was probably the artist stacking them around the studio while in process.

Second is the gluing process. They are glued quite effectively to a regular book. To do this, I believe they were pressed. This pressing has caused spine splits to the book. I have one with a slight spine split which I think will keep it from garnering a 9.8.

Third, there are creases in the back of many of these books. Mine do not have them, but they clearly were handled by people, likely in the pressing process (whether pressed by hand or machine).

Fourth, there are corner blunts on many of these books. I can't explain why that is. Mine don't have them, but I see them on books.

Personally, like with all VEI books, I feel that a 9.6 or higher should be highly coveted for this book. I'm a 9.8 guy, but VEI books are so condition sensitive that I also accept 9.6. This book is no different, in my opinion.

[Ricomortis]

Wanted to share my thoughts on this for the 3 people who might care;)

I have 2 raw copies of the metal book. One is what I believe is 9.8,and the other 9.4. I have been looking at copies on eBay and have come to the conclusion that this is a condition sensitive book and that the 9.8 prices Chain all and Bloodshot have offered this book are extremely reasonable.

First you have the metal print, each of which is handmade. There are the obvious skips and imperfections you might encounter with that, but those edges are sharp, and I see side scrapes where small bits of the color have been sheared off by what I believe was probably the artist stacking them around the studio while in process.

Second is the gluing process. They are glued quite effectively to a regular book. To do this, I believe they were pressed. This pressing has caused spine splits to the book. I have one with a slight spine split which I think will keep it from garnering a 9.8.

Third, there are creases in the back of many of these books. Mine do not have them, but they clearly were handled by people, likely in the pressing process (whether pressed by hand or machine).

Fourth, there are corner blunts on many of these books. I can't explain why that is. Mine don't have them, but I see them on books.

Personally, like with all VEI books, I feel that a 9.6 or higher should be highly coveted for this book. I'm a 9.8 guy, but VEI books are so condition sensitive that I also accept 9.6. This book is no different, in my opinion.

Thanks Steve! That is GREAT info to know.

[apacseller]

Wanted to share my thoughts on this for the 3 people who might care;)

I have 2 raw copies of the metal book. One is what I believe is 9.8,and the other 9.4. I have been looking at copies on eBay and have come to the conclusion that this is a condition sensitive book and that the 9.8 prices Chain all and Bloodshot have offered this book are extremely reasonable.

First you have the metal print, each of which is handmade. There are the obvious skips and imperfections you might encounter with that, but those edges are sharp, and I see side scrapes where small bits of the color have been sheared off by what I believe was probably the artist stacking them around the studio while in process.

Second is the gluing process. They are glued quite effectively to a regular book. To do this, I believe they were pressed. This pressing has caused spine splits to the book. I have one with a slight spine split which I think will keep it from garnering a 9.8.

Third, there are creases in the back of many of these books. Mine do not have them, but they clearly were handled by people, likely in the pressing process (whether pressed by hand or machine).

Fourth, there are corner blunts on many of these books. I can't explain why that is. Mine don't have them, but I see them on books.

Personally, like with all VEI books, I feel that a 9.6 or higher should be highly coveted for this book. I'm a 9.8 guy, but VEI books are so condition sensitive that I also accept 9.6. This book is no different, in my opinion.

You might be right. They just slabbed a 9.4, so that means the current census is 9.8 (x2), 9.6 (x2), and a 9.4. I don't know how many raw ones are currently in house (i'd guess at least 4-5 from what I've read on the board and in PM conversation). It might really be a crap shoot as to who gets lucky on this one. Either way, it's certainly not a guaranteed 9.8 as a lot of people suspected.

P.S. Did Chainall or Bloodshot know that they had nice copies, or just send them in fingers crossed?

[TheeBaldMoose]

Second is the gluing process. They are glued quite effectively to a regular book. To do this, I believe they were pressed. This pressing has caused spine splits to the book. I have one with a slight spine split which I think will keep it from garnering a 9.8.

Third, there are creases in the back of many of these books. Mine do not have them, but they clearly were handled by people, likely in the pressing process (whether pressed by hand or machine).

Just curious, are you speculating that these books were pressed before release? Is it known knowledge that they were? Just curious, as I have spotted wavy pages in mine, and was thinking about sending it in for pressing. With the other problems that you listed, I might not now.

[michael]

I believe it was pressed/added pressure to get the metal to adhere to cover properly while glue was drying. Full/partial/time allotment? Probably only as long as it took glue to dry.

[nycjadie]

I believe it was pressed/added pressure to get the metal to adhere to cover properly while glue was drying. Full/partial/time allotment? Probably only as long as it took glue to dry.

That's my best educated guess as well.

[luigi6484]

Wanted to share my thoughts on this for the 3 people who might care;)

I have 2 raw copies of the metal book. One is what I believe is 9.8,and the other 9.4. I have been looking at copies on eBay and have come to the conclusion that this is a condition sensitive book and that the 9.8 prices Chain all and Bloodshot have offered this book are extremely reasonable.

First you have the metal print, each of which is handmade. There are the obvious skips and imperfections you might encounter with that, but those edges are sharp, and I see side scrapes where small bits of the color have been sheared off by what I believe was probably the artist stacking them around the studio while in process.

Second is the gluing process. They are glued quite effectively to a regular book. To do this, I believe they were pressed. This pressing has caused spine splits to the book. I have one with a slight spine split which I think will keep it from garnering a 9.8.

Third, there are creases in the back of many of these books. Mine do not have them, but they clearly were handled by people, likely in the pressing process (whether pressed by hand or machine).

Fourth, there are corner blunts on many of these books. I can't explain why that is. Mine don't have them, but I see them on books.

Personally, like with all VEI books, I feel that a 9.6 or higher should be highly coveted for this book. I'm a 9.8 guy, but VEI books are so condition sensitive that I also accept 9.6. This book is no different, in my opinion.

You might be right. They just slabbed a 9.4, so that means the current census is 9.8 (x2), 9.6 (x2), and a 9.4. I don't know how many raw ones are currently in house (i'd guess at least 4-5 from what I've read on the board and in PM conversation). It might really be a crap shoot as to who gets lucky on this one. Either way, it's certainly not a guaranteed 9.8 as a lot of people suspected.

P.S. Did Chainall or Bloodshot know that they had nice copies, or just send them in fingers crossed?

The 9.4 is mine. Didn't get lucky with the grading, they got me for a "bend left bottom of back cover". Still an awesome book and I'm glad I was able to get my hands on one!!

[nycjadie]

Wanted to share my thoughts on this for the 3 people who might care;)

I have 2 raw copies of the metal book. One is what I believe is 9.8,and the other 9.4. I have been looking at copies on eBay and have come to the conclusion that this is a condition sensitive book and that the 9.8 prices Chain all and Bloodshot have offered this book are extremely reasonable.

First you have the metal print, each of which is handmade. There are the obvious skips and imperfections you might encounter with that, but those edges are sharp, and I see side scrapes where small bits of the color have been sheared off by what I believe was probably the artist stacking them around the studio while in process.

Second is the gluing process. They are glued quite effectively to a regular book. To do this, I believe they were pressed. This pressing has caused spine splits to the book. I have one with a slight spine split which I think will keep it from garnering a 9.8.

Third, there are creases in the back of many of these books. Mine do not have them, but they clearly were handled by people, likely in the pressing process (whether pressed by hand or machine).

Fourth, there are corner blunts on many of these books. I can't explain why that is. Mine don't have them, but I see them on books.

Personally, like with all VEI books, I feel that a 9.6 or higher should be highly coveted for this book. I'm a 9.8 guy, but VEI books are so condition sensitive that I also accept 9.6. This book is no different, in my opinion.

You might be right. They just slabbed a 9.4, so that means the current census is 9.8 (x2), 9.6 (x2), and a 9.4. I don't know how many raw ones are currently in house (i'd guess at least 4-5 from what I've read on the board and in PM conversation). It might really be a crap shoot as to who gets lucky on this one. Either way, it's certainly not a guaranteed 9.8 as a lot of people suspected.

P.S. Did Chainall or Bloodshot know that they had nice copies, or just send them in fingers crossed?

I recall some thinking they might get a 9.9 or 10. You never know, but a 9.9 would seem like a stretch playing with the numbers. How many 9.9s are there? 1 in 10,000 on average? With a limit of 200ish books, chances are slim. But hey, you never know.

[greg]

I recall some thinking they might get a 9.9 or 10. You never know, but a 9.9 would seem like a stretch playing with the numbers. How many 9.9s are there? 1 in 10,000 on average? With a limit of 200ish books, chances are slim. But hey, you never know.

Definitely depends upon the cover type and the age of the comic... and we're in new territory with the brushed metal.

For chromium covers, such as 1993 X-O #0, CGC 9.9 (or higher) has occurred for 1-in-27 submissions.
For the card stock prestige Bloodshot Reborn #10 LaRosa Sketch, CGC 9.9 has been 1-in-9 submissions.
For special situations like Deathmate Preview Green (1993), there have been 23 CGC 9.9 (or higher) out of 50 submissions, about 1-in-2.

"Normal" (common, modern) covers like Spawn #1 (1992) have had a CGC 9.9 (or higher) for 1-in-72 submissions, but every submission was at least an 8 year old comic before CGC was created.

Meanwhile, X-O Manowar #1 (1992) hasn't had a CGC 9.9 yet, after 917 universal submissions.

[apacseller]

I'm just curious. Has anyone here ever resubmitted a 9.8 hoping for higher? The optimistic side of me always suspected most 9.9s or 10s were given to people that know a professional grader and could get a kitchen table pre-screen of what it might take. The cynic in me always suspected the 9.9s or 10s were given to top submitters.

Either way, it would be fun to send in a bunch of 9.8s and see what happens (though I am quite sure I would be disappointed with the results). At least with baseball cards, if I am not mistaken, they allow you to re-submit with the promise your grade won't go down, but I am quite positive that has led to some significant grade creep upwards over time.

[greg]

I'm just curious. Has anyone here ever resubmitted a 9.8 hoping for higher? The optimistic side of me always suspected most 9.9s or 10s were given to people that know a professional grader and could get a kitchen table pre-screen of what it might take. The cynic in me always suspected the 9.9s or 10s were given to top submitters.

Either way, it would be fun to send in a bunch of 9.8s and see what happens (though I am quite sure I would be disappointed with the results). At least with baseball cards, if I am not mistaken, they allow you to re-submit with the promise your grade won't go down, but I am quite positive that has led to some significant grade creep upwards over time.

I don't believe that CGC or CBCS award 9.9 or 10 to their top submitters disproportionately.

Top submitters submit both:
A higher number of comics
and
A higher quality of comics

Obviously, they submit a higher number of comics... that's why they're top submitters.
But, they would also be submitting a higher quality of comics, because they obviously have access to far more copies of comic books than others and because they have far more experience in submitting, they know how to appropriately screen their higher volume of comics for the best copies. Open 5 cases of brand new comics for your shop and keep the best 20 copies. That's the best 2% of 1,000 copies examined. Look at 1,000 copies of the same comic for decades and hang onto the best 20 copies you've ever seen. Top 2%. The best of those 20 is the Top 0.1%.

The rest of us submit the best copy from our collections and it might be the best of 5 we own... top 20% for our best copy.
Maybe we've personally looked at 100 copies and bought the best 5. Our top copy is still only the top 1% of those 100.
Submit the best 20 copies from the 1,000 copies you've ever owned/examined through the years, top 2% for all 20, and the best copy is the Top 0.1%.

When comparing the Top 1% comic to the Top 0.1% comic, the top submitter should get a CGC/CBCS 9.9 or CGC 10 around ten times more often... but that's the correct proportion.

PGX, on the other hand, has been proven to let their "friends" slab their own comics, so PGX 9.9 or PGX 10 just means someone had access to the machines.

[kjjohanson]

I'm just curious. Has anyone here ever resubmitted a 9.8 hoping for higher? The optimistic side of me always suspected most 9.9s or 10s were given to people that know a professional grader and could get a kitchen table pre-screen of what it might take. The cynic in me always suspected the 9.9s or 10s were given to top submitters.

Either way, it would be fun to send in a bunch of 9.8s and see what happens (though I am quite sure I would be disappointed with the results). At least with baseball cards, if I am not mistaken, they allow you to re-submit with the promise your grade won't go down, but I am quite positive that has led to some significant grade creep upwards over time.

I have 2 9.9s (no 10s) and I've made 4 or 5 submissions total. Maybe 100 slabs? The only book that I submitted that I figured had a shot at better than a 9.8 was the first appearance of Fantomex, which as far as I could see, was absolutely flawless, but it came back 9.8