BOD: The Fall of Harbinger - Discussion

[Phoenix8008]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

Interesting theory.
- An ascended Harada (presumably with some control over space/time) creates Divinity.
- Divinity is then there to be a foil for Harada and his Imperium designs while Peter is off the chessboard.
- The timeline plays out to the point with Divinity being a major influence in the world and where Harada ascends as seen in BoD: TFoH.

Did Harada create his own checkmate to keep him from going overboard and ultimately create the future where he would ascend?

It can't be Harada that empowers Divinity though - that happened in the 1970's or 1980's. Harada didn't ascend till 200 years later. Some other ascended being though? Very possible. Unless you want to start speculating about ascended light energy time travelling or something, but I'd prefer to keep it to one stretching of possibility at a time.

[tiredofmyself]

With all the bookmarks metaphor, I still feel like Divinity is omnipresent at all time.

And Harada met Divinity before he met Divinity in Imperium.

And how does Prometheus factor into this?

[jmatt]

I just spent an hour rereading this. It may be the best comic book I've ever read.

The issue is framed around the Bleeding Monk. He dies on the first page and is reborn on the last.

Harada transcends. Can he cross into an Alternity where Peter was successful in ascending with him, and bring him back to our Alternity?

The art and color are absolutely, relentlessly jaw dropping.

I think the thing that is most satisfying is hearing Peter's narrative as a mature, mindful adult. I got choked up at his parting words to each of his friends. Especially to Torque, those words are true for each and every one of us, to some degree: "Scared, hungry for for love and respect and friendship".

It reads like poetry in places. "He is an ocean. I am a thimble."

And just the way Dysart unfolds the story, modestly flipping back and forth in the storyline as he reveals more and more and more.

My God, how does he do it?

[CongoBill]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

I was thinking the same thing as I read this - that Divinity encountered, and was created by, something out in space very similar to what we were seeing in this book. I certainly feel the connection is there, but who knows? Dysart and Kindt, I guess.

[String]

So, is this confirmation that Faith will become Valiant's new Female Icon since she's the 'world's most popular superhero' here?

[QUARTZ]

Best comic I've read in a while. I loved that in the center of all this heady sci-fi stuff is a heart; the core of the comic remains the characters and their motivations. I love Sunlight on the Snow so it's fantastic seeing him and others evolve in the future and the reference to Divinity was nice. The art was spectacular, just a colossal funny-book all around. I love the implication that the Bleeding Monk can be reincarnated. Wow...make mine Valiant.

[grendeljd]

A truly stunning issue, I'm so impressed with the sci-fi concepts pulled into this tale. Masterful.

If anyone would like to hear our OTV:VCR podcast discussing/reviewing this issue, please follow the link (it was just Dr Solar & Hawkeyeps hosting this one);

http://onlythevaliant.com/episodes/VCR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 34/

Thanks to any who listen in

[Aomalle27]

Wow; I guess I'm in the minority on this one. As I expected after seeing the teaser images a couple weeks ago; the art was a disaster. Weird, but the flashback scenes with the renegades were spot on, but for 95% of the comic the art was distracting and awful. The story itself could have been interesting but it tried to throw too many future snippets in; renegade deaths, Harada and the psiot factions, AI ruling the world? (Peter pleads with the AI to lift the tech embargo, suggesting an AI rule). Too many issues, I'd prefer one or two items to delve into. No mention of New Japan, nor any real tie in to Book of Death. FoBS and FoN both tied into Book of death nicely; while being dominated by their subject matter characters. Fallout from BoD led to a future where Bloodshot becomes nomadic, eventually finding his way back to heroism. Ninjak seeks his own way to defeating what he perceives the biggest threat to be (Harada-topia), leads to dramatic if not pointless attack on New Japan. Harbinger makes no mention of a Geomancer/necromancer fallout. Not even in a subtle way. This reads more like a standalone Harbinger story than a BoD tie in.

[Keith]

This reads more like a standalone Harbinger story than a BoD tie in.

Because that's what it is. The last Harbinger story.

[QUARTZ]

This reads more like a standalone Harbinger story than a BoD tie in.

Because that's what it is. The last Harbinger story.

....and what a great one it is.

[Michael_Ayer]

I'm with you Aomalle. It didn't seem to connect.

[jmatt]

This reads more like a standalone Harbinger story than a BoD tie in.

Because that's what it is. The last Harbinger story.

+1

[agent_graves]

the reference to Divinity was nice. I love the implication that the Bleeding Monk can be reincarnated.

+1 on both counts...

[kjjohanson]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

Interesting theory.
- An ascended Harada (presumably with some control over space/time) creates Divinity.
- Divinity is then there to be a foil for Harada and his Imperium designs while Peter is off the chessboard.
- The timeline plays out to the point with Divinity being a major influence in the world and where Harada ascends as seen in BoD: TFoH.

Did Harada create his own checkmate to keep him from going overboard and ultimately create the future where he would ascend?

I just finished reading this, and while I was reading I thought there might be some connection to the entity that Harada encounters on Mercury and the one that Divinity encounters.

[greg]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

Interesting theory.
- An ascended Harada (presumably with some control over space/time) creates Divinity.
- Divinity is then there to be a foil for Harada and his Imperium designs while Peter is off the chessboard.
- The timeline plays out to the point with Divinity being a major influence in the world and where Harada ascends as seen in BoD: TFoH.

Did Harada create his own checkmate to keep him from going overboard and ultimately create the future where he would ascend?

It can't be Harada that empowers Divinity though - that happened in the 1970's or 1980's. Harada didn't ascend till 200 years later. Some other ascended being though? Very possible. Unless you want to start speculating about ascended light energy time travelling or something, but I'd prefer to keep it to one stretching of possibility at a time.

The alternate universes have different situations for Peter and Harada, but it's not clear if those universes intersect. Suppose the Divinity cosmonauts (the Trinity?) were actually travelling through alternate universes, not just travelling farther from Earth within our own. If they encountered "The Unknown" in another universe, and Abram returned to our universe, he could have encountered the result of that Harada becoming "The Unknown" in that other universe.

The 1970s or 1980s of our universe is not necessarily the 1970s or 1980s of another universe. Besides, within our own universe, we know that the sentient cities connect different points in time, plus Ivar and Neela can travel through time without being as powerful as Divinity. The Harada of another universe could become the Unknown in its equivalent of the year 2200 or whatever, the Trinity of cosmonauts could have travelled there, and Abram could have returned to a past Earth, still too late to achieve his goal of reuniting with his wife and daughter.

[Keith]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

Interesting theory.
- An ascended Harada (presumably with some control over space/time) creates Divinity.
- Divinity is then there to be a foil for Harada and his Imperium designs while Peter is off the chessboard.
- The timeline plays out to the point with Divinity being a major influence in the world and where Harada ascends as seen in BoD: TFoH.

Did Harada create his own checkmate to keep him from going overboard and ultimately create the future where he would ascend?

It can't be Harada that empowers Divinity though - that happened in the 1970's or 1980's. Harada didn't ascend till 200 years later. Some other ascended being though? Very possible. Unless you want to start speculating about ascended light energy time travelling or something, but I'd prefer to keep it to one stretching of possibility at a time.

Or... the ascended Harada has mastery over Space/Time, and completely capable of empowering Divinity in the past. Not too much of a stretch since we have seen Divinity prove powerful enough to move people around in time at will... the force that created him could have even greater ability in that regard.

[BugsySig]

I have to say I think people are really reaching with a Harada created Divinity connection. It would be cool, and I love interconnectedness between books, but this seems like a reach.

[jmatt]

I have to say I think people are really reaching with a Harada created Divinity connection. It would be cool, and I love interconnectedness between books, but this seems like a reach.

That was my thought too, but I'm trying not to step on anyone's toes -- it's just speculation and I've done plenty myself. That said, it's very speculative.

[greg]

I have to say I think people are really reaching with a Harada created Divinity connection. It would be cool, and I love interconnectedness between books, but this seems like a reach.

The psychedelic coloring of the "space" involved with The Unknown from Divinity and the Harada-on-higher-planes are pretty close, and that's probably the source of the connection.
That said, it's been known from the start of VEI that we would not have Solar.

What was the rainbow space coloring in 1990s Valiant? It was Solar's unreality, basically the realm of "the unknown".
Divinity brings back a space man with amazing powers in a red suit (added white to the suit, took away white from the man).
Harada's alternate reality higher planes fill in where the missing rainbow space was.
It's not much of a stretch if you see both pieces as replacements for Solar.

[BugsySig]

I have to say I think people are really reaching with a Harada created Divinity connection. It would be cool, and I love interconnectedness between books, but this seems like a reach.

The psychedelic coloring of the "space" involved with The Unknown from Divinity and the Harada-on-higher-planes are pretty close, and that's probably the source of the connection.
That said, it's been known from the start of VEI that we would not have Solar.

What was the rainbow space coloring in 1990s Valiant? It was Solar's unreality, basically the realm of "the unknown".
Divinity brings back a space man with amazing powers in a red suit (added white to the suit, took away white from the man).
Harada's alternate reality higher planes fill in where the missing rainbow space was.
It's not much of a stretch if you see both pieces as replacements for Solar.

They may be connected (or a result of uncreative coloring choices), but a direct link of a time/space displaced ascended Harada being the cosmic element that those astronauts encountered in the deepest reaches of space? Seems a bit much. But you never know.

[jmatt]

...but a direct link of a time/space displaced ascended Harada being the cosmic element that those astronauts encountered in the deepest reaches of space?

To be honest, I'd be disappointed if there was a connection. They have a chance to present us with some new cosmic force, no need to tie it to a character we've already seen a lot of.

I'm glad Marvel's Beyonder didn't just turn out to be the Space Phantom reincarnated.

[leonmallett]

...but a direct link of a time/space displaced ascended Harada being the cosmic element that those astronauts encountered in the deepest reaches of space?

To be honest, I'd be disappointed if there was a connection. They have a chance to present us with some new cosmic force, no need to tie it to a character we've already seen a lot of.

I'm glad Marvel's Beyonder didn't just turn out to be the Space Phantom reincarnated.

If there is a connection, for me having a tighter more cohesive vision for the most powerful protagonists of the VALIANT universe would be more effective than adding a plethora of unrelated ideas, but mileage clearly varies, which is cool.

For that reason, I was pleased with the recent revelations of the origins of PRS anti-psiot technology in Imperium. It made sense and worked to the established building blocks of VEI stories

[leonmallett]

I found the issue very enjoyable, especially from the writing. It had sweep and a sense of something huge. I think Dysart as an exponent of 'big ideas' has surpassed lauded contemporaries like Hickman. The issue felt like a very fitting companion piece to his Harbinger-Imperium work.

The art felt very good in places, very apt, but in others I really struggled. So an eventual re-read may help with the clarity I have of what is known from first reading.

In all though, great stuff VEI.

[krylox]

just finished the book of death hardcover. bod harbinger was the only one i buyed and read as a single issue and i remember liking it very much. but today, on a second and more slow and profound re-read... WOW. just wow. this is probably the best comic any incarnation of valiant has ever released and it had that superb rai #0 vibe to it. but from a storytelling standpoint it was much more emotional and complex/layered. i think this book is exactly what a lot of old school fans were always expecting from the new valiant: complex genre-storytelling for adults. as much as i loved it, it stood quite in heavy contrast with the rest of the book, which, at best, was nice to average. the main mini and the x-o story by venditti... sorry, i just don't get why this guy is still allowed to write for vei. it's so rough, so in your face, so superficial... but enough with the negativity. i would have gladly payed for this hardcover for the harbinger story alone. this issue alone is the definitive answer to the question "has valiant earned its place in today's comics market?": HELL YES.

i want more stuff like that. PLEASE!!!

and josh for president. obviously. (but i really loved the art and the colors too)