Dead ISN'T Dead anymore?

[Phoenix8008]

The following is my reply to another's post about Dead Drop #4. I thought it deserved it's own topic under the above heading...

[quote="Phoenix8008]

He brought a dead character back to life... With teenage parkour hackers.

I just realized that you're right about this. Not even that it was stupid teenage hackers who did it, but that DEAD WASN'T DEAD!

That rubs me wrong. I don't care if it was a light hearted romp and shouldn't be taken this seriously. I feel now that I can't hold up that one thing anymore when describing to others how Valiant is different and better than the others. I mean, his freaking head was cut off! So what that they're brilliant hackers. Are they spinal surgeons on the side too? WTF!? The more I think about it, the more it bugs me. And it's only made worse by the fact of this violation of their code being part of this throw away, badly written story. Not even something important that I would consider forgiving them for breaking this cardinal rule. ("Oh, they brought back Kay with such and such reason for why she wasn't really dead? I don't like it, but I may be willing to forgive them if it's for something really awesome/important.") Nope, just because - that's why. As part of the worst written thing published by VEI so far. I am far from happy about this...

[/quote]

[slack]

For the record, I'm considering this story to have taken place in one of those Quantum & Woody alternate universes. Until VEI says otherwise.

[slack]

And this discussion may be best for spoiler section.

[BugsySig]

For the record, I'm considering this story to have taken place in one of those Quantum & Woody alternate universes. Until VEI says otherwise.

I can live with that.

[Hasmot]

I was disappointed with Betamax being brought back. I don't want too defend Dead Drop too much (I thought it was terrible), but I just told myself that if Betamax had survived having half his body replaced with machinery then why not a short term decapitation? ..... Ya, I'll put this in a Quantum and Woody alternate universe as well.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

[bygranddesign]

The "dead IS dead" rule .. should have some flexibility.

If Kay, for example, was alive within the NANITES -- I wouldn't mind that. It would be a clever twist.

But Flamingo coming back from the dead (or Torque in VH1) would be LAME. Because it was a poignant, important moment that was incredibly impactful from a story perspective and changed the trajectory of the Harbinger kids -- the impact of DEATH on Teenage heroes makes it a more GROUNDED superhero universe -- Flamingo should never come back to life.

But I think we should all be open to the idea -- and the creativity of the storytellers -- to tell stories that might involve resurrection or some clever twist that brings a character back that we THOUGHT was dead.

Haven't read Dead Drop so not sure if Betamax was a lame story twist ... but obviously it was something planned all along and it was part of the story arc - it was likely planned all along.

If Kot intended for him to be dead ... And then a year later another writer resurrects him in some lame way - then that would upset me.

[Brapbrap]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

[Dallow Spicer1]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

[Sven the Returned]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

Like i said, Valiant should have a mainstreamverse, Occultverse (Shadowman, Mirrage) and weirdverse (Q&W, A&A).

[hunter_peterson]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

Like i said, Valiant should have a mainstreamverse, Occultverse (Shadowman, Mirrage) and weirdverse (Q&W, A&A).

I find that approach to be unrealistic. Real life has a variety of tones and a fleshed out shared fictional universe should have that too. It's not like the characters can't all be written in different ways depending on context.

[Keith]

No thank you. No alternate pick and choose universes. Just one Valiant Universe for this reader.

[Dr Noel]

I haven't read Dead Drop yet and I opened this post. Dammit!

[Dallow Spicer1]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

Like i said, Valiant should have a mainstreamverse, Occultverse (Shadowman, Mirrage) and weirdverse (Q&W, A&A).

I find that approach to be unrealistic. Real life has a variety of tones and a fleshed out shared fictional universe should have that too. It's not like the characters can't all be written in different ways depending on context.

I agree real life has a variety of tones, but what I'm talking about is how far you have to suspend disbelief and whether there's a reasonable amount of logic to a character. XO, Bloodshot etc have a 'reasonble' explanation for how they are 'powered' some of it pseudo science and some if it sci-fi. But look at the design Beta Max, and how his half face 'fits' with the machine side of his head (for example), it's pure cartoon. There's no attempt at even pseudo-science to explain this.

Variety of tones yes, but playing loose and fast with strong concepts mixed with concepts invented in 5 minutes just doesn't work.

[Brapbrap]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

what do you mean it's inconsistent? there has never been anything in Quantum and Woody that causes something in X-O Manowar to make less sense. I am glad that the Valiant universe is a place where people can tell more or less whatever story they want to, it's not hard to ignore the stories that don't appeal to you. If Quantum and Woody ever showed up in an issue of X-O Manowar I guarantee that Aric would think they were irresponsible, incompetent idiots and treat them as such. It's not like he would have to change his characterization just to coexist with them.

[geocarr]

There has never been anything in Quantum and Woody that causes something in X-O Manowar to make less sense. I am glad that the Valiant universe is a place where people can tell more or less whatever story they want to, it's not hard to ignore the stories that don't appeal to you. If Quantum and Woody ever showed up in an issue of X-O Manowar I guarantee that Aric would think they were irresponsible, incompetent idiots and treat them as such. It's not like he would have to change his characterization just to coexist with them.

+1 I too enjoy having one shared VEI universe.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

what do you mean it's inconsistent? there has never been anything in Quantum and Woody that causes something in X-O Manowar to make less sense. I am glad that the Valiant universe is a place where people can tell more or less whatever story they want to, it's not hard to ignore the stories that don't appeal to you. If Quantum and Woody ever showed up in an issue of X-O Manowar I guarantee that Aric would think they were irresponsible, incompetent idiots and treat them as such. It's not like he would have to change his characterization just to coexist with them.

What if Laurel and Hardy appeared in the Walking Dead, would that work well?

[BugsySig]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

what do you mean it's inconsistent? there has never been anything in Quantum and Woody that causes something in X-O Manowar to make less sense. I am glad that the Valiant universe is a place where people can tell more or less whatever story they want to, it's not hard to ignore the stories that don't appeal to you. If Quantum and Woody ever showed up in an issue of X-O Manowar I guarantee that Aric would think they were irresponsible, incompetent idiots and treat them as such. It's not like he would have to change his characterization just to coexist with them.

What if Laurel and Hardy appeared in the Walking Dead, would that work well?

They appeared with Dracula, Frankenstein and the Wolfman

[hunter_peterson]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

what do you mean it's inconsistent? there has never been anything in Quantum and Woody that causes something in X-O Manowar to make less sense. I am glad that the Valiant universe is a place where people can tell more or less whatever story they want to, it's not hard to ignore the stories that don't appeal to you. If Quantum and Woody ever showed up in an issue of X-O Manowar I guarantee that Aric would think they were irresponsible, incompetent idiots and treat them as such. It's not like he would have to change his characterization just to coexist with them.

I agree, there is nothing inconsistent about a universe full of all kinds of characters. It's not like the "serious" characters are necessarily more "realistic". Ridiculous things existing alongside serious things doesn't make the serious things less serious, it actually provides a useful contrast that makes the universe as a whole more three-dimensional. Diversity of tone, IMHO, enhances the aspects of different properties that make them distinct.

TLDR; I believe that characters like Quantum & Woody existing in the same world as characters as serious as Bloodshot, Harada or XO doesn't weaken the suspension of disbelief, but actually provides a clearer niche for each character and their stories.

[Watchtower]

I don't think tone is much of an issue. Sure, Q&W threw at us a reanimated evil Edison, a cyborg made out of 80s tech, and an alternate-universe Woody who mistook pheonixs for turkeys, but A&A gave us kooky factions of the worldwide Sect, Nature represented as a sassy monkey, a team-up with Amelia Earhart in an alternate dimension, and a celebrity purgatory. Van Lente would later, in Timewalker, give us crystal mind-hives that talk like 13-year-olds on League of Legends. Dysart gave us a female Beast Boy whose forms are all cartoons (and, in one instance, pulled out imaginary friends to kick *SQUEE*) and a Lotus Eater Machine through Torquehalla. Venditti gave us the machine version of Ego the Living Planet and a Vine infected that's flat as paper. Bloodshot's currently dealing with Bloodsquirt (haven't caught up with Reborn, don't know all the details of that), Gilad's had a Geomancer bark orders through a crow, and Unity just faced an immortal who wrecks *SQUEE* just for the sake of wrecking *SQUEE* (and, ironically, keeps getting her *SQUEE* kicked).

Asking for Q&W to be in its own world is kinda redundant because, well, it already feels like it. And that's been my main issue with Q&W: Asmus is kinda doing whatever the hell he wants in his own private bubble. Sure, there was Delinquents, and Dead Drop shows Cejudo as one of Alcott's contacts, but it'd be nice for there to be a bit more. Shadowman kinda had the same problem but it seems to be getting rectified with Book of Death, Rai is 2000 years in the future and still has Dr. Silk and a Geomancer in play, and Dr. Mirage at least showed up for Aric's wedding (maybe Book of Death and the next mini-series will help more).

[ChiptheRipper]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

Like i said, Valiant should have a mainstreamverse, Occultverse (Shadowman, Mirrage) and weirdverse (Q&W, A&A).

I find that approach to be unrealistic. Real life has a variety of tones and a fleshed out shared fictional universe should have that too. It's not like the characters can't all be written in different ways depending on context.

I agree real life has a variety of tones, but what I'm talking about is how far you have to suspend disbelief and whether there's a reasonable amount of logic to a character. XO, Bloodshot etc have a 'reasonble' explanation for how they are 'powered' some of it pseudo science and some if it sci-fi. But look at the design Beta Max, and how his half face 'fits' with the machine side of his head (for example), it's pure cartoon. There's no attempt at even pseudo-science to explain this.

Variety of tones yes, but playing loose and fast with strong concepts mixed with concepts invented in 5 minutes just doesn't work.

So a time traveling Visigoth in alien Iron Man armor annexing a part of Kansas is realistic and grounded, but a genetically modified goat with laser eyes is too far?

[bribri]

Has VEI ever claimed "dead is dead"? Any articles or ads?

[jeremycoe]

I think it's pretty easy to argue that Betamax was never actually dead - so whether dead is dead or not is a moot point. He's half machine (at least). He doesn't need anything more that his CPU to be "alive".

Also, I don't think I've seen VEI actually claim that "dead is dead" - only fans.

[Dallow Spicer1]

I think it's pretty easy to argue that Betamax was never actually dead - so whether dead is dead or not is a moot point. He's half machine (at least). He doesn't need anything more that his CPU to be "alive".

Also, I don't think I've seen VEI actually claim that "dead is dead" - only fans.

I'm pretty sure I have seen VEI reference 'Dead is Dead' maybe around the time of the Harbinger death (Pheonix).

If Beta Max is half human and his head is separated from his body then how can he not be dead? Or are we saying he's not half human?

[jeremycoe]

I think it's pretty easy to argue that Betamax was never actually dead - so whether dead is dead or not is a moot point. He's half machine (at least). He doesn't need anything more that his CPU to be "alive".

Also, I don't think I've seen VEI actually claim that "dead is dead" - only fans.

I'm pretty sure I have seen VEI reference 'Dead is Dead' maybe around the time of the Harbinger death (Pheonix).

If Beta Max is half human and his head is separated from his body then how can he not be dead? Or are we saying he's not half human?

What makes one legally dead? According to dictionary.com it's

complete cessation of brain function as evidenced by absence of brain-wave activity on an electroencephalogram

I'm not going to pretend I know what that means, but I'm going to assume that the half of his head that isn't human can continue on without connection to the rest of his body. Even if it does stop functioning it's all just 1s and 0s and should be able to be turned back on.