Origin of Harada - discussion

[ManofTheAtom]

Why? I am a scientist, and I don't know.

You are talking about possibilities, and then assuming that Phil MUST know everything about everything?!?

I'm not talking about possibilities.

If I were I'd say that it's possible that Phil and Erica ended up in a different reality, but since there's nothing to support that theory I don't mention it since it's not possible.

You want the story to be convient, to say that there's two realities and that's it, when it doesn't work like that.

Once you have ONE alternate reality then you have MULTIPLE alternate realities, that's how it works in fiction and that's how it works in science.

Unless he thought about it, and for some unknown reason, dismissed it.

If only there was a way to know what Phil was thinking... like a thought balloon or something...

Scientists are people, just like everyone else. If they go into a situation with a preconceived notion, they may be more likely to assume that notion is true.

As such, IF for some reason Phil did think he had just travelled through time (instead of travelling to an alternate universe) that might be the idea he "latched on to".

Phil had no reason to believe he was in an alternate reality, and plenty of reasons to think he had traveled back in time.

He posted a hypothesis and used the facts to come to his conclusion.

Dude, you are speculating about comic book science. And then using the idea that Phil 'should" know what was correct because he was a scientist.

Think about that for a second.

I thought we were debating VALIANT comics, which used grounded science, not Marvel or DC comic booky science.

If we were using comic book science when analyzing VALIANT, then Phil would have still NOT been in an alternate reality.

In DC comic book science, individuals from different realities vibrate at different frequencies. As beings made up of energy both Phil and Erica would have been able to detect that their bodies were vibrating at a different frequencie than they were in their home reality.

In Marvel comic book science, changes to the past do NOT affect the present or future, they merely create a different timeline from the point of divergence, meaning that Phil would have still not saved his world when he stopped his other self from jumping into the reactor and then shut it down, he would have just created a different one.

So, do you want to debate comic book science or real science?

Meaning, should we debate DC and Marvel or VALIANT?

Well, you are the one who is saying "these are the rules". No you are saying that sometimes it never happened like that? Make up your mind!

And I'm telling you that in fiction two realities that are 100% the same hasn't been shown, there are always variations.

Not quite, because Phil Seleski never met Toyo in both realities, Solar did. In issue 3, Solar and Phil Seleski are still two different people, not merged yet.

Heck, it could be that something entirely DIFFERENT was the "difference" between the two realities, and it would have stayed that way UNTIL Solar forced his way into the reality (along with Erica Pierce).

If it was an alternate reality, of which there is no proof of.

How do you know Harada wasn't born in VH-0?

I don't have to prove he wasn't, you have to prove he was.

That, IMO, is one of the stronger arguments presented yet. However, it assumes that a) Erica KNEW there were alternate realities (again, perhaps she like Phil simply thought they travelled through time).

Ok, that's A, but where's B?!?!?!?!

Erica had 2000 years to figure out whether or not alternate realities existed...

And so tell me why, a fictional theory from a science fiction television show, HAS to also hold true in a completely different fictional realm of comic books?

Unlike comic books, mostly DC's, TV shows like these one have what's called Science Consultant (I saw the one for Battlestar Galactica at the Richard Hatch panel in San Diego) so that the science can be portrayed as realistically as possible.

Now, I can't swear that SG-1 has one, but from what I've read and been told about alternate realities, not in fiction but in science, how it was portrayed in SG-1 sounds accurate. That's why it applies to VALIANT, due to both being grounded in real science applied as accurrately as possible (even if it's not 100% all the time).

Again, says who? A completely different fictional television show dictates the rules for the fictional world of Valiant?

And lastly, I never said there ARE only two realities. I said that was a possibilitiy. Personally, I think that they truth is more like what you are saying, where Solar altered the timeline. But that doesn't mean that it HAS to be that way, or that solution is the ONLY one that works within the Valiant universe.

Why don't we agree to offer possibilities in GOOD faith, meaning that they have to be possibilities that can be supported by the comics, not by anything else?

If you want me to accept the possibility of there being only two realties (which is EXTREMELY convenient and very poor writing), prove it.

For one, you have to explain why Erica didn't discover this during the 2000 years she spent working on her Unity project.

Unlike Phil, she had PLENTY of time to research her situation.

The conclusion she came to supports the existance of only one reality.

[Dr. Solar]

If you've ever seen a room full of dominos, it's common that all of them fall at exactly the right moment, but somehow, one always remains standing when the whole thing should be over.

It doesn't mean that domino is the "winner"... in fact, that one domino is the reason the whole event DIDN'T get a perfect score.

Getting out of a conversation at the perfect time is an unimprovable action.

Knowing exactly when to get out is a little tougher.

Being that last domino and thinking that it's because all others are wrong, is folly.

I can't tell if this is good or bad...

[Blood of Heroes]

While all this is very interesting, I thought this was the Origin of Harada thread not the Origin of the VU. Christ, get back on topic.


So...how about that Harada. Did you know he killed his own parents? Wow.

[ManofTheAtom]

We're discussing the origin of his powers

[greg]

If you've ever seen a room full of dominos, it's common that all of them fall at exactly the right moment, but somehow, one always remains standing when the whole thing should be over.

It doesn't mean that domino is the "winner"... in fact, that one domino is the reason the whole event DIDN'T get a perfect score.

Getting out of a conversation at the perfect time is an unimprovable action.

Knowing exactly when to get out is a little tougher.

Being that last domino and thinking that it's because all others are wrong, is folly.

I can't tell if this is good or bad...

That's because I'm diabolically evil.

[greg]

While all this is very interesting, I thought this was the Origin of Harada thread not the Origin of the VU. Christ, get back on topic.


So...how about that Harada. Did you know he killed his own parents? Wow.

You think he used telekinesis to hit them with blunt objects?
Did he "mind-throw" knives at them?

Or, did he just make them dream of falling and not let them wake up?

[Dr. Solar]

I can't tell if this is good or bad...

That's because I'm diabolically evil.

You're just trying to be evil greg lite!

[cjv]

Why? I am a scientist, and I don't know.

You are talking about possibilities, and then assuming that Phil MUST know everything about everything?!?

I'm not talking about possibilities.

If I were I'd say that it's possible that Phil and Erica ended up in a different reality, but since there's nothing to support that theory I don't mention it since it's not possible.

Wait...first you say it is possible, but then you say that there isn't anything to support it (which is a subjective interpretation of the evidence) so it isn't possible.

You want the story to be convient, to say that there's two realities and that's it, when it doesn't work like that.

Once you have ONE alternate reality then you have MULTIPLE alternate realities, that's how it works in fiction and that's how it works in science.

Please, again, explain to me how "multiple reality" theory works in real science?

Then think about what I just typed.

Multiple reality theory IS science fiction. IT ISN'T REAL. As such, there are no "rules" for how it needs to be conveyed or not.

Unless he thought about it, and for some unknown reason, dismissed it.

If only there was a way to know what Phil was thinking... like a thought balloon or something...

Funny, I don't recall seeing a thought balloon for EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT that ever entered Phil's head. Presumably for you, nothing happens off camera?

Phil had no reason to believe he was in an alternate reality, and plenty of reasons to think he had traveled back in time.

He posted a hypothesis and used the facts to come to his conclusion.

There is plenty of possible evidence that could support a alternate reality idea. Things that are similar, but slightly different from his own reality (which is something you claim is REQUIRED for an alternate reality). Case in point - at the restaraunt I believe you said they were wearing different clothes.

Similar, yet different...alternate reality or altering time?

I thought we were debating VALIANT comics, which used grounded science, not Marvel or DC comic booky science.

(emphasis mine)

Grounded in science does not equal science. You can have an idea that is grounded in science, but is still science fiction. Emphasis mine, again. This isn't real. As such, you can say all you want about how it is based on real science, but it still isn't real. A nuclear (or anti-matter, or whatever) reactor will not give someone powers. It is fiction.

If we were using comic book science when analyzing VALIANT, then Phil would have still NOT been in an alternate reality.

In DC comic book science, individuals from different realities vibrate at different frequencies. As beings made up of energy both Phil and Erica would have been able to detect that their bodies were vibrating at a different frequencie than they were in their home reality.

In Marvel comic book science, changes to the past do NOT affect the present or future, they merely create a different timeline from the point of divergence, meaning that Phil would have still not saved his world when he stopped his other self from jumping into the reactor and then shut it down, he would have just created a different one.

I still love the fact that you seem to think that comic book laws are universal. What is true in DC MUST be true in Valiant. What is true in Marvel MUST be true in Valiant - if we are dealing with comic book laws.

Why couldn't Valiant have made up it's own rules about alternate realities, about how time travel affects everything? Why do you think they HAVE to follow existing COMIC BOOK laws.

And I'm telling you that in fiction two realities that are 100% the same hasn't been shown, there are always variations.

Well, gosh, in fiction writing it has never been done before, so I guess that means it never CAN be done...EVER!

If it was an alternate reality, of which there is no proof of.

There is a lot of evidence - it just matters how you interpret it.

1) Similar, but different universes
2) Superheroes in one, unknown (but probably nothing) in the other
3) Destruction of one universe/timeline, finding yourself in another universe/timeline

How do you know Harada wasn't born in VH-0?

I don't have to prove he wasn't, you have to prove he was.

Actually, since you are completely dismissing the idea of an alternate reality possibility, I think you WOULD have to prove that it isn't. I am not embracing it, I am simply saying it is a possibility that would explain Solar's appearance in VH-1.

That, IMO, is one of the stronger arguments presented yet. However, it assumes that a) Erica KNEW there were alternate realities (again, perhaps she like Phil simply thought they travelled through time).

Ok, that's A, but where's B?!?!?!?!

I think I had a "b", but I forgot it.

Erica had 2000 years to figure out whether or not alternate realities existed...

If she cared, and/or was interested. She may have cared or not, I am not sure. As I said, that it one of the strongest arguments yet AGAINST an alternate reality scenario, but it doesn't discount it completely.

Unlike comic books, mostly DC's, TV shows like these one have what's called Science Consultant (I saw the one for Battlestar Galactica at the Richard Hatch panel in San Diego) so that the science can be portrayed as realistically as possible.

Now, I can't swear that SG-1 has one, but from what I've read and been told about alternate realities, not in fiction but in science, how it was portrayed in SG-1 sounds accurate. That's why it applies to VALIANT, due to both being grounded in real science applied as accurrately as possible (even if it's not 100% all the time).

"as realistically as possible"

Given that we are showing people with superpowers, that is a stretch already. However, within those confines, sure, we can try to be as realistic as possible. However, I am sure when it was in order to advance a story, they didn't limit themselves to "real" science only.

Why don't we agree to offer possibilities in GOOD faith, meaning that they have to be possibilities that can be supported by the comics, not by anything else?

Fine. And the alternate reality hypothesis is still potentially supported in the comics.

If you want me to accept the possibility of there being only two realties (which is EXTREMELY convenient and very poor writing), prove it.

I can't prove it, any more than you can prove that Solar travelled through time. I am discussing different possibilities that would explain the origin of the Valiant Universe. Two possible ideas are the alternate reality (and I like Greg's idea of a paper stacked reality), or altering time by destroying the universe.

Time for dinner.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Wait...first you say it is possible, but then you say that there isn't anything to support it (which is a subjective interpretation of the evidence) so it isn't possible.

I said

But Phil was also a scientist, meaning that he would have known if alternate realities could exist.

If he had thought for a moment that it was a possibility, he would have mentioned it.

Had Phil thought that Geoff running into the restaurant (or any of the other differences with his era) meant that he was in an alternate reality, then he would have said so. He didn't, he said he had traveled back in time.

If you have PROOF (not possibilities or opinions) that he went to another reality, show it.

Please, again, explain to me how "multiple reality" theory works in real science?

Then think about what I just typed.

Multiple reality theory IS science fiction. IT ISN'T REAL. As such, there are no "rules" for how it needs to be conveyed or not.

Multiple reality theory is a hyphotesis in science, not limited to science fiction.

Funny, I don't recall seeing a thought balloon for EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT that ever entered Phil's head. Presumably for you, nothing happens off camera?

So something this important would take place off camera?

Why?

There is plenty of possible evidence that could support a alternate reality idea. Things that are similar, but slightly different from his own reality (which is something you claim is REQUIRED for an alternate reality). Case in point - at the restaraunt I believe you said they were wearing different clothes.

Similar, yet different...alternate reality or altering time?

Or it's as simple as his choosing to wear different clothes because he thought that what he wore the first time wasn't as good.

Remember the movie Groundhog Day and how Murray kept changing the toast he made?

Same principle.

Phil chose to wear different clothes, that's it.

Grounded in science does not equal science. You can have an idea that is grounded in science, but is still science fiction. Emphasis mine, again. This isn't real. As such, you can say all you want about how it is based on real science, but it still isn't real. A nuclear (or anti-matter, or whatever) reactor will not give someone powers. It is fiction.

Right... so, what's your point?

The outcome doesn't negate that the idea is grounded in science, just like in My Mother the Car, one of the worst TV shows ever made, the car was still a car despite being possesed by a soul.

The fantasy aspect of the car being inhabited by a soul didn't mean that the car could suddenly fly, or could fire laser beams, it was still a car and worked like such.

I still love the fact that you seem to think that comic book laws are universal. What is true in DC MUST be true in Valiant. What is true in Marvel MUST be true in Valiant - if we are dealing with comic book laws.

Why couldn't Valiant have made up it's own rules about alternate realities, about how time travel affects everything? Why do you think they HAVE to follow existing COMIC BOOK laws.

I don't think that, VALIANT did make up their own rules. For one, Phil didn't travel to a different reality, he traveled back in time.

Well, gosh, in fiction writing it has never been done before, so I guess that means it never CAN be done...EVER!

So now we're talking about what will be done in the future?

I thought we were talking about what has already been done.

There is a lot of evidence - it just matters how you interpret it.

1) Similar, but different universes
2) Superheroes in one, unknown (but probably nothing) in the other
3) Destruction of one universe/timeline, finding yourself in another universe/timeline

That's not proof that he was in an alternate reality.

1 and 2 are proof that he CHANGED reality, and 3 didn't happen because he adverted the explosion.

Had the Golden Gate Bridge been blue or Nixon still President, then he would have been in a different reality...

(those are proxy examples, not meant to be taken literal, btw...)

Actually, since you are completely dismissing the idea of an alternate reality possibility, I think you WOULD have to prove that it isn't. I am not embracing it, I am simply saying it is a possibility that would explain Solar's appearance in VH-1.

A possibility you're offering in bad faith since you can't back it up with any kind of proof.

You're just argueing for the sake of it...

If she cared, and/or was interested. She may have cared or not, I am not sure. As I said, that it one of the strongest arguments yet AGAINST an alternate reality scenario, but it doesn't discount it completely.

Sure it does.

"as realistically as possible"

Given that we are showing people with superpowers, that is a stretch already. However, within those confines, sure, we can try to be as realistic as possible. However, I am sure when it was in order to advance a story, they didn't limit themselves to "real" science only.

Which is how we eventually ended with a goat on a first name with the Legion of Super-Heroes....

Fine. And the alternate reality hypothesis is still potentially supported in the comics.

Not really. The comics show that Solar changed reality, not that he and Erica traveled to a different reality.

Erica had 2000 years to explore that possibility.

I can't prove it

Because it's not an alternate reality.

any more than you can prove that Solar travelled through time.

Solar #1, Phil picks up a paper from the trash can with the date September 27th, 1990.

The accident happened in issue 4, days, weeks, or even months later, meaning that he traveled back in time.

That was easy... (btw, the dates in Unity #0 are April 15th 1991, and October 23rd 1991, both of which take place after Phil's arrival in the past and the accident - it is possible that they meant 1991 and not 1990 since it would mean that Erica spent a year in the black hole singularity).

I am discussing different possibilities that would explain the origin of the Valiant Universe. Two possible ideas are the alternate reality (and I like Greg's idea of a paper stacked reality), or altering time by destroying the universe.

Your possibility isn't supported by the facts, that's the problem with it.

[cjv]

Okay, I give up. You win.

Chris

[depluto]

It's a perfect argument ... Everything that happened in Valiant Comics is based on real science. Now, prove it isn't!

[ManofTheAtom]

It's a perfect argument ... Everything that happened in Valiant Comics is based on real science. Now, prove it isn't!

That's not the argument at all.

The argument is that Phil didn't travel to another reality, that he traveled back in time.

cjv thinks it's possible that he traveled to another reality, he just can't prove it.

Talking about the possibility of it being another reality when there's no proof of that is a massive waste of time that could have instead been used to analize the actual story.

[depluto]

Neither are actually possible, so it never happened. Except in Valiant Lite.

[ManofTheAtom]

Neither are actually possible, so it never happened. Except in Valiant Lite.

Acclaim has nothing to do with this.

[depluto]

[ManofTheAtom]

[slym2none]

It's a perfect argument ... Everything that happened in Valiant Comics is based on real science. Now, prove it isn't!

That's not the argument at all.

The argument is that Phil didn't travel to another reality, that he traveled back in time.

cjv thinks it's possible that he traveled to another reality, he just can't prove it.

Talking about the possibility of it being another reality when there's no proof of that is a massive waste of time that could have instead been used to analize the actual story.

This is just like that final ST:TNG episode where what Picard did in the future is affecting the past.....



I personally can't see how you can go backwards in time and have changes as soon as you arrive, unless someone went further back in time to make said changes - or it's an alternate reality/universe/timeline/whathaveyou.

Could Erica have possibly done some of the things we attribute to Seleski/Solar by going further backin time??? Discuss THAT, fanboys!!!



-slym (keyword in the last paragraph - "possibly")

[greg]

Could Erica have possibly done some of the things we attribute to Seleski/Solar by going further backin time???

No. There's nothing further back in time... unless you're talking about the previous universe.

You know... the one BEFORE the universe of the Alpha & Omega storyline.

[slym2none]

Could Erica have possibly done some of the things we attribute to Seleski/Solar by going further backin time???

No. There's nothing further back in time... unless you're talking about the previous universe.

You know... the one BEFORE the universe of the Alpha & Omega storyline.

So, Solar didn't travel back in time after all?





-slym

[ManofTheAtom]

It's a perfect argument ... Everything that happened in Valiant Comics is based on real science. Now, prove it isn't!

That's not the argument at all.

The argument is that Phil didn't travel to another reality, that he traveled back in time.

cjv thinks it's possible that he traveled to another reality, he just can't prove it.

Talking about the possibility of it being another reality when there's no proof of that is a massive waste of time that could have instead been used to analize the actual story.

This is just like that final ST:TNG episode where what Picard did in the future is affecting the past.....



I personally can't see how you can go backwards in time and have changes as soon as you arrive, unless someone went further back in time to make said changes - or it's an alternate reality/universe/timeline/whathaveyou.

Could Erica have possibly done some of the things we attribute to Seleski/Solar by going further backin time??? Discuss THAT, fanboys!!!



-slym (keyword in the last paragraph - "possibly")

That was discussed earlier.

It was proposed that energy from the destruction of the universe traveled back to the big bang and changed the universe.

It was the oxygen/ozone analogy.

[etos45]

Sorry to get back on topic... I do find the matter of anti-matter-alternate-realities-so-long-as-shooter-took-nuclear-physics-101 interesting, but seeing as I was one of the losers that JUST got the HC, I wanted to comment on that...

I was actually really let down by the REALLY short story. I'm really grateful to have a new story, but it didn't really feel that new. It's like two old ladies saying what the coupons had already said. Maybe I'll think this story was better if/when they explore everything a little more, but for now, I just wasn't feeling it.

I'm curious if anyone thinks that maybe VEI's plan is to continue releasing Harbinger HCs and having a little more of this story explored it each one. The only reason I'm thinking that is because it doesn't seem like the story is anything you could pick up on at relaunch unless the intention is to start where the HCs leave off. If you let all the issues stand, then wouldn't some form of this story had to have been played out a little bit?

Oh, and just to add my two cents on the Solar thing, I don't believe Shooter intended on it being an alternate reality. I am by no means knowledgeable on Valiant like most of you are, but it seems like I remember reading something about Shooter not liking alternate realities. I may be thinking of something I read in the Unity 2000 plotlines, or I may have just dreamt it... with X-O...

[myron]

wow...I had been purposefully staying away from this thread, because I figured something like what was going on, was going on...wish I'd have stayed away...

[X-O HoboJoe]

Just tried to read this thread and all that stuck with me was this word:

analize

Seriously tho, I was always under the impression that Phil's jump backwards in time either put him on another track of events or created a new branch of events. Figure Shooter had plans to revisit this again someday and answer if the current direction of VH1 had overwritten VH0 or if a reality where there was a black-hole where the Earth used to be was now in the mix of the mulitverse.

[myron]

Just tried to read this thread and all that stuck with me was this word:

analize

Seriously tho, I was always under the impression that Phil's jump backwards in time either put him on another track of events or created a new branch of events. Figure Shooter had plans to revisit this again someday and answer if the current direction of VH1 had overwritten VH0 or if a reality where there was a black-hole where the Earth used to be was now in the mix of the mulitverse.

[ManofTheAtom]

Just tried to read this thread and all that stuck with me was this word:

analize

Seriously tho, I was always under the impression that Phil's jump backwards in time either put him on another track of events or created a new branch of events. Figure Shooter had plans to revisit this again someday and answer if the current direction of VH1 had overwritten VH0 or if a reality where there was a black-hole where the Earth used to be was now in the mix of the mulitverse.

The only time anyone ever hinted at Solar jumping from one dimension to another was his psychiatrist in one of the BQuake issues by Jurgens. It had a comparison to Sliders.

How much value do you guys want to give that throw-away line that was put in place for nothing more than to help promote the Sliders comics Acclaim was making at the time?