Origin of Harada - discussion

[ManofTheAtom]

I got the impression that Harada had "popped" Pete's mind in Harbinger #0.

Read it again

"Previously the others abilities have remained dormant until I drew them forth, yet Peter's manifested themselves independently. He displays multiple phenomena."

Right... but I only took that to mean that Pete could already control
what others could only do after they were "drawn out".

So, something like ...

Regular people are level 0.
Harbingers (without any outside help) are normally level 1.
Harbingers (with Harada's help) become level 2.
Pete (without any outside help) was already level 2 with multiple phenomena.
Pete (with Harada's help) became a level 3 (highest level) with multiple phenomena.

It still took Harada's help to make him "more" than the old Pete.

But withoutside help regulars (level 0) can't become level 1.

Look at Faith, Flamingo, and Torque.

They didn't display any actual powers until Pete popped them. Until that moment they only felt different and had dreams about being different.

I don't agree.

Faith believed she was a couple inches above the bed while dreaming... she probably was.

We don't know about Flamingo's power, but she felt strongly enough to visit Harbinger Foundation.

Torque was stronger than "normal" (but not as strong as he would become).

I'd say they were level 1s. With Pete's help, they became level 2.
(The levels don't mean anything, I'm just trying to say "none", "some", "more", and "all".)

ok

[greg]

If "Alpha" is the beginning... I'd say it's Solar.

The thing about Solar, though, is that in the Valiant universe,
he's both Alpha & Omega.

The other arguments for Aram and Gilad being "alpha" would make sense as well,
though you would need to get into the whole genetics area that would
require quite a bit of explanation about why thousands of years of
DNA (being passed through the lineage) would remain dormant
until the 20th century... unless you want to take the great leaders
and military heroes from the past and give them "Harbinger" labels.

If you think as the Harbinger DNA as water and time as the damn, you could say that the damn broke in the 20th Century and let all that Harbinger DNA out into two individuals, Toyo and Peter.

I'd definitely say that Harbingers have existed throughout history and predate both Harada and Stanchek.

Just look at Rowena.

Yes, but Rowena still keeps it in the 20th century.
Except for the eternal brothers, there aren't Harbingers (that we know for sure) before the 20th century.

Is the ability to control necromantic energy a Harbinger ability?
Darque is 19th century.

[ManofTheAtom]

If "Alpha" is the beginning... I'd say it's Solar.

The thing about Solar, though, is that in the Valiant universe,
he's both Alpha & Omega.

The other arguments for Aram and Gilad being "alpha" would make sense as well,
though you would need to get into the whole genetics area that would
require quite a bit of explanation about why thousands of years of
DNA (being passed through the lineage) would remain dormant
until the 20th century... unless you want to take the great leaders
and military heroes from the past and give them "Harbinger" labels.

If you think as the Harbinger DNA as water and time as the damn, you could say that the damn broke in the 20th Century and let all that Harbinger DNA out into two individuals, Toyo and Peter.

I'd definitely say that Harbingers have existed throughout history and predate both Harada and Stanchek.

Just look at Rowena.

Yes, but Rowena still keeps it in the 20th century.
Except for the eternal brothers, there aren't Harbingers (that we know for sure) before the 20th century.

Is the ability to control necromantic energy a Harbinger ability?
Darque is 19th century.

No, I don't think it is.

We didn't see that many pre 20th Century stories at VALIANT, did we?

How long would you say (or does it say) Rowena is and in what year do we see her?

Was she born in the very late 19th Century or the 20th?

[greg]

If "Alpha" is the beginning... I'd say it's Solar.

The thing about Solar, though, is that in the Valiant universe,
he's both Alpha & Omega.

The other arguments for Aram and Gilad being "alpha" would make sense as well,
though you would need to get into the whole genetics area that would
require quite a bit of explanation about why thousands of years of
DNA (being passed through the lineage) would remain dormant
until the 20th century... unless you want to take the great leaders
and military heroes from the past and give them "Harbinger" labels.

If you think as the Harbinger DNA as water and time as the damn, you could say that the damn broke in the 20th Century and let all that Harbinger DNA out into two individuals, Toyo and Peter.

I'd definitely say that Harbingers have existed throughout history and predate both Harada and Stanchek.

Just look at Rowena.

Yes, but Rowena still keeps it in the 20th century.
Except for the eternal brothers, there aren't Harbingers (that we know for sure) before the 20th century.

Is the ability to control necromantic energy a Harbinger ability?
Darque is 19th century.

No, I don't think it is.

We didn't see that many pre 20th Century stories at VALIANT, did we?

No, unless you want to include Darque and Maxim St. James among those with "Harbinger abilities"...
which would put every historical Shadowman into that category.

On the other hand...

If there's humans, Harbingers, and "others"
(like Darque, historical Shadowmen, Solar, Aram, Gilad, Immortal Enemy),
then it makes "others" a more important category than "Harbinger"...
since "other" could literally be anything you can imagine...
while Harbingers are "single phenomena" or omegas like Pete / Harada.

...and what is Rai?

If there's more than two categories (besides human and Harbinger)
then that third category seems like it would be the most important.

[ManofTheAtom]

If there's more than two categories (besides human and Harbinger) then that third category seems like it would be the most important.

I'd say that there's more than two categories.

You have humans (i.e. the Armorines, the HARD Corps, Geomancers, Ninjak, Psi-Lords, Rai, Secret Weapons II, Turok, and X-O Manowar *), Harbingers (i.e. Archer, Bloodshot, Magnus, Harada and his students, Pete's resistance, and Pete - aka the Visitor-), necromancers (i.e. Darque and Jack), enery beings (i.e. Solar, Erica, Hwen), and aliens (i.e. the Spider-Aliens).

* the Armorines, HARD Corps, Psi-Lords, Rai, Secret Weapons, and X-O Manowar are regular humans enhanced through technology; Ninjak was genetically enhanced; Turok and the Geomancers are humans, though Geomancers are enhanced by nature.

That leaves Immortals.

What are they? Are they the first step in human evolution (i.e. alpha harbingers?)

[Blood of Heroes]

Pete was lifting things at the junk yard and controlling his mom and Kris before he met Harada.

In the files they steal from Harbinger, it lists Flamingo as a 'Class A' and Torque as a 'Class D'. in #5 I think they refer to Puff as a 'Class A'. Don't know what it means, but there it is.

[ManofTheAtom]

Pete was lifting things at the junk yard and controlling his mom and Kris before he met Harada.

In the files they steal from Harbinger, it lists Flamingo as a 'Class A' and Torque as a 'Class D'. in #5 I think they refer to Puff as a 'Class A'. Don't know what it means, but there it is.

Class A = Alpha?

Class D = Delta?

Could be that Harada classified the lower letters as weaker and the higher letters as stronger.

[Blood of Heroes]

I don't think it's alpha to omega/weakest to strongest

Puff, a class A can destabilize matter. He was the cause of a huge explosion that destroyed the Dallas headquarters. That's pretty powerful.

Torque, a class d, was just inhumanly strong.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't think it's alpha to omega/weakest to strongest

Puff, a class A can destabilize matter. He was the cause of a huge explosion that destroyed the Dallas headquarters. That's pretty powerful.

All Torque was inhumanly strong.

How would Harada classify Magnus?

I'm starting to wish that they had released those Harbinger Foundation Files card set (speaking of which, didn't those cards say that certain athltes are Harbingers?)

Torque had the potential to have offspring whose hands could cut through steel like a knife through butter. Doesn't that merit being catalogued in a high class?

[Blood of Heroes]

I see your point, Puff was as powerful as a U-Haul truck full of diesel and fertilizer, but Torque's shack got shot with a bazooka with him in it.

I suppose we need to read up on more harbingers that have been classified. See what someone like Fort or Swallow are considered.

[ManofTheAtom]

I see your point, Puff was as powerful as a U-Haul truck full of diesel and fertilizer, but Torque's shack got shot with a bazooka with him in it.

I suppose we need to read up on more harbingers that have been classified. See what someone like Fort or Swallow are considered.

Definitely

[Blood of Heroes]

Bazooka is a class c
Spikeman and Fort are both class a

Maybe it's got to do with how they affect energy.

[ManofTheAtom]

Bazooka is a class c
Spikeman and Fort are both class a

Maybe it's got to do with how they affect energy.

I'm gonna have to take your word for it It's been a couple of years since I read the comics and we're getting into areas that are out of current reach, heh.

I'd have to re-read the comics to be on the same level as you, heh.

But yeah, it sounds like energy manipulation plays a part of it.

[Blood of Heroes]

Also in Harbinger #5, when the team attacks the compound, a Harbinger employee says:"We have the four renegade class a's coming in airborne"

Pete, Torque, Flamingo, and Zepplin.

In #2 they call Torque a class d, so this may be a mistake on the writers part.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious. I'm just saying.

[Blood of Heroes]

I'd have to re-read the comics to be on the same level as you, heh..

No. I've got the hardcover in my lap.

[ManofTheAtom]

Also in Harbinger #5, when the team attacks the compound, a Harbinger employee says:"We have the four renegade class a's coming in airborne"

Pete, Torque, Flamingo, and Zepplin.

In #2 they call Torque a class d, so this may be a mistake on the writers part.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious. I'm just saying.

It could be that Torque went from Class D (pre pop) to Class A (post Pop), so the lower the letter the more powerful the individual... but isn't Omega the most powerful? Omega's the last letter.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd have to re-read the comics to be on the same level as you, heh..

No. I've got the hardcover in my lap.

lol

[Blood of Heroes]

I just flipped through some HARD Corps issues to see if they refer to harbingers by classification-didn't find anything.

Am I the last guy to notice that while the Harbinger Foundation and Omen Enterprises are at war with each other, 'harbinger' and 'omen' mean almost the same thing?

[ManofTheAtom]

I just flipped through some HARD Corps issues to see if they refer to harbingers by classification-didn't find anything.

Am I the last guy to notice that while the Harbinger Foundation and Omen Enterprises are at war with each other, 'harbinger' and 'omen' mean almost the same thing?

Nope, I noticed that a while ago.

I've always thought that VALIANT needed more corporations. They only had like three, Harbinger, Omen, and Orb (orb, as in crystal ball to tell the future to link it with the other two's theme?).

[Blood of Heroes]

and Orb (orb, as in crystal ball to tell the future to link it with the other two's theme?).

ooooh!

[ManofTheAtom]

and Orb (orb, as in crystal ball to tell the future to link it with the other two's theme?).

ooooh!

heh

[greg]

Also in Harbinger #5, when the team attacks the compound, a Harbinger employee says:"We have the four renegade class a's coming in airborne"

Pete, Torque, Flamingo, and Zepplin.

In #2 they call Torque a class d, so this may be a mistake on the writers part.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious. I'm just saying.

It could be that Torque went from Class D (pre pop) to Class A (post Pop), so the lower the letter the more powerful the individual... but isn't Omega the most powerful? Omega's the last letter.

I don't think Class A means "alpha".

I think Harada's classification (Harbinger Foundation files) were A through D,
with A being the highest, and D being the lowest.

Torque was a "Class D" in the Harbinger files before Pete met him.
Later, he's the "second priority" for termination, behind Pete,
so I'd say Harada considers him more than "Class D" by then.

[ManofTheAtom]

Also in Harbinger #5, when the team attacks the compound, a Harbinger employee says:"We have the four renegade class a's coming in airborne"

Pete, Torque, Flamingo, and Zepplin.

In #2 they call Torque a class d, so this may be a mistake on the writers part.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious. I'm just saying.

It could be that Torque went from Class D (pre pop) to Class A (post Pop), so the lower the letter the more powerful the individual... but isn't Omega the most powerful? Omega's the last letter.

I don't think Class A means "alpha".

I think Harada's classification (Harbinger Foundation files) were A through D,
with A being the highest, and D being the lowest.

Torque was a "Class D" in the Harbinger files before Pete met him.
Later, he's the "second priority" for termination, behind Pete,
so I'd say Harada considers him more than "Class D" by then.

Makes sense

[Blood of Heroes]

Also in Harbinger #5, when the team attacks the compound, a Harbinger employee says:"We have the four renegade class a's coming in airborne"

Pete, Torque, Flamingo, and Zepplin.

In #2 they call Torque a class d, so this may be a mistake on the writers part.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious. I'm just saying.

It could be that Torque went from Class D (pre pop) to Class A (post Pop), so the lower the letter the more powerful the individual... but isn't Omega the most powerful? Omega's the last letter.

I don't think Class A means "alpha".

I think Harada's classification (Harbinger Foundation files) were A through D,
with A being the highest, and D being the lowest.

Torque was a "Class D" in the Harbinger files before Pete met him.
Later, he's the "second priority" for termination, behind Pete,
so I'd say Harada considers him more than "Class D" by then.

Way to kill the conversation.

[mrknapp33]

Also in Harbinger #5, when the team attacks the compound, a Harbinger employee says:"We have the four renegade class a's coming in airborne"

Pete, Torque, Flamingo, and Zepplin.

In #2 they call Torque a class d, so this may be a mistake on the writers part.

I don't mean to be sacrilegious. I'm just saying.

It could be that Torque went from Class D (pre pop) to Class A (post Pop), so the lower the letter the more powerful the individual... but isn't Omega the most powerful? Omega's the last letter.

I don't think Class A means "alpha".

I think Harada's classification (Harbinger Foundation files) were A through D,
with A being the highest, and D being the lowest.

Torque was a "Class D" in the Harbinger files before Pete met him.
Later, he's the "second priority" for termination, behind Pete,
so I'd say Harada considers him more than "Class D" by then.

Was Torque a Class A after Pete got to him? If memory serves, I recall the Harada troops stating that the Harbinger kids were all Class A. I will have to re-read the Hardcover, JIC.