Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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TheFerg714
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

greg wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:The difference is that sjw books sell like garbage. Just like at Faith. It was one of Valiant's highest sellers at first, and it quickly became it's lowest, even after a flashy new #1.
Books like Iceman, the Unstoppable Wasp, Captain Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, and Ms Marvel are routinely in the bottom 10% of Marvel's output, so why do they keep getting renewed?
You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't. I don't run across the "sjw" term anywhere except here. I remember looking it up and seeing that it means "social justice warrior" and it became a popular term when there were calls for university campuses to be places where no one would be criticized for any reason, basically everywhere on campus would be a "safe space".
I noticed that you didn't even address my actual point there.
It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
You are ridiculous. facepalm No one has a problem with left-wing, right-wing, or any other kind of ideas in their comics. The only problem is when it feels like the comic is preaching at you. It also doesn't help that I almost never see any conservative ideas popping up, but progressivism seems to be the name of the game in comics. On one level, it makes sense because entertainment industries tend to be more left-leaning, but I'd appreciate it if they didn't try to force out half of the country. Comics aren't a club. Comics are an industry that should strive to make ALL of their customers happy, not just the ones the creatives agree with.
Chiclo wrote:
The best comics are going to reflect the world outside our window, so to speak. There is a whole range of ideologies out there, right outside my window. A neighbour three doors down from me has put up a campaign sign for the woman running for governor as a Democrat, right in my own neighbourhood.
Oh ok, so the world outside your window is almost entirely Democrat? Is that what you're saying? Because it seems like you're saying that everyone in your neighborhood is conservative, besides one person, and yet somehow that "world outside your window" is reflected in the comic industry. :? Do you see any conservatives in comics? ...or even just conservative ideas?
Chiclo wrote:I think the acronym sjw is something relatively few in the population over the age of 30 or maybe 35 is going to use regularly. It is kidspeak, running around listening to their Ke$has or what have you. I am over 35 myself and the radio in my car doesn't work anymore so I don't know what the current music is. And I have a flip phone so I am really disconnected from text speak. I am like those people on that commercial in the dad support group - I text in full sentences, defence wins championships and why would I replace this, it's not broken.
It's more of a catch-all term for leftists who try to promote their leftism through any means necessary. For example, the type of people that want to shove diversity down everyone's throats would be sjw's, while someone who supports diversity, in general, might not be considered an sjw. Honestly, it doesn't really matter at all, it's just a word.
Why are you comicsgate people forcing me to agree with Greg so much? It's not natural. We civilly disagree on almost everything that is not comic related.
Maybe it's because you aren't aware about what "comicsgate" really is? You can't listen to one side and automatically assume that they're the ones telling the truth. I recommend watching some D&C videos just to see how vicious the comic industry has been to conservatives lately.
Last edited by TheFerg714 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:32:31 am, edited 3 times in total.

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TheFerg714
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Zhuge1 wrote:I think in that situation, though, the only loser is Marvel.
...and the comic industry.
And it seems like they've always taken risks to sell books and put out material that didn't appeal to the masses.
Yea, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to keep trying something even when it's proven itself to not work.
Sure, maybe those books are continuing to be put out, but it's not as if they are the only ones Marvel releases given their huge output. Also, it's possible that they are continuing to put out some of those monthlies with the focus of making some of the money back on the TPB market.
Okay, so why not just cancel the floppies and only sell them in TPB format? The floppies obviously aren't working, and that's going to be proven again when the new Iceman and Wasp series get canceled after 6 issues. It also doesn't help that Marvel wants stores to think that these are hot items, and even when they don't fall for it, send them multiple copies that they didn't ask for.
But is it really forced if you don't have to read those books and can choose from other options?
Well remember when Thor was Jane, Cap was either Hydra or Sam Wilson, Iron Man was a little black girl, and Hulk was a young Asian kid with complete control over his powers? I think it would be safe to say that there weren't other options then. It all just reeked of identity politics and virtue signaling, but it's admittedly getting better lately. Marvel and Cebulski can clearly see that people don't want to read about this crap and just want their normal heroes back.
I think the important thing to remember is that people aren't *SQUEE* because there aren't enough options out there. The issue is that they don't want the industry to destroy itself by catering to people that don't buy comics.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

greg wrote:
Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:
Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
We don't want fistfights, campaings to get us homeless a nd bankrupt bu i am unaware of the fact that right wingers on here cannot engage different ideas here.

I am pretty sure the NBA All Star game being moved from Charlotte was not fictional, pretty sure Hillary promised publicize everyone's paycheck for feminism, i am pretty sure we saw major studios falling on their face because of politics.... i could go on and on.
I don't understand any of these references (and some of the words)... but you WERE talking about comic books. Now you're listing things that have nothing to do with comic books.

Sven: Comics shouldn't have X.

Greg: X in a fictional universe isn't real.

Sven: But what about the NBA All-Star game being moved?

Greg (and everyone else reading this): What does that have to do with comic books?
You:


You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't.
Okayyyyy... you're using "sjw" in relation to comic books like it has some meaning, when it actually has very little meaning in comic books and is rarely used in the real world. What bubble are you in where sjw is a common everyday usage term? (And when will you pop that bubble?)
It has been used in online and political discourse for quite a while.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by possumgrease »

TheFerg714 wrote: Do you see any conservatives in comics? ...or even just conservative ideas?
Of course you do. Dr Doom immediately comes to mind. [WINKING FACE]

But seriously, what would be entertaining about a discussion between Batman and the Joker over whether or not the federal government is too large? Maybe a Captain America thought balloon of “If only we had the lowered the tax rate and cut out social safety nets, this disaster could’ve been avoided!”?

I suppose there could be non-superhero comics about politics, but it’s just hard for me to get too excited about a political platform (any of them) in a sequential art medium.

I would like to better understand what you mean. What sort of conservative ideas would you like to see and how would you incorporate that into the medium, superhero or otherwise?

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

possumgrease wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote: Do you see any conservatives in comics? ...or even just conservative ideas?
Of course you do. Dr Doom immediately comes to mind. [WINKING FACE]

But seriously, what would be entertaining about a discussion between Batman and the Joker over whether or not the federal government is too large? Maybe a Captain America thought balloon of “If only we had the lowered the tax rate and cut out social safety nets, this disaster could’ve been avoided!”?

I suppose there could be non-superhero comics about politics, but it’s just hard for me to get too excited about a political platform (any of them) in a sequential art medium.

I would like to better understand what you mean. What sort of conservative ideas would you like to see and how would you incorporate that into the medium, superhero or otherwise?
Like you, I'd prefer not to have politics in my comics as well, but I think I would be okay with it sometimes. For example, I suppose a character like Captain America could talk about personal responsibility and how, in order to make the best world possible, we have to work on ourselves, not focus on how to fix others. (just a very rough cheesy idea :lol: ) Or maybe a superhero could take on radical ideology like Islamic extremism. It's actually kind of strange, seeing as America has been embroiled in a war in the middle east for the last two decades, that no one has really bothered with dealing with radical Islamists in the superhero "community." Communists and Nazis were dealt with in the past, why not religious extremism?

Another example could be a superhero pronouncing that the only diversity that really matters is intellectual diversity. Skin color and other immutable traits don't matter at the end of the day. Idk, like I said, I'd prefer not to have obvious real-world political stuff in comics, but if it's going to happen, I'd prefer it not be focused on only one side of the debate.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

possumgrease wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote: Do you see any conservatives in comics? ...or even just conservative ideas?
Of course you do. Dr Doom immediately comes to mind. [WINKING FACE]
Victor Von Doom is too authoritarian to be truly conservative.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

TheFerg714 wrote:
Chiclo wrote:The best comics are going to reflect the world outside our window, so to speak. There is a whole range of ideologies out there, right outside my window. A neighbour three doors down from me has put up a campaign sign for the woman running for governor as a Democrat, right in my own neighbourhood.
Oh ok, so the world outside your window is almost entirely Democrat? Is that what you're saying? Because it seems like you're saying that everyone in your neighborhood is conservative, besides one person, and yet somehow that "world outside your window" is reflected in the comic industry. :? Do you see any conservatives in comics? ...or even just conservative ideas?
Are you referring to the characters or the creators?

All the characters live in big cities and big cities are pretty heavily left-wing, especially near the coasts. It makes sense that most of those characters living in large coastal cities tend to be more liberal.

As for conservative comic creators, Mike Grell and Billy Tucci come to mind.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by possumgrease »

Chiclo wrote:
possumgrease wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote: Do you see any conservatives in comics? ...or even just conservative ideas?
Of course you do. Dr Doom immediately comes to mind. [WINKING FACE]
Victor Von Doom is too authoritarian to be truly conservative.
Good point.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Cyberstrike »

TheFerg714 wrote:I recommend watching some D&C videos just to see how vicious the comic industry has been to conservatives lately.
You claim the comic book is "vicious" to conservatives and I'll save you watching those stupid videos because I'll tell you.

Just make sure you really want to know why, because I will tell you the 100% brutal honest answer but be warned there is very good chance you won't like it, or me as a result of it, so I'll put it as a spoiler so nobody who doesn't want to be offended by the truth won't have to read it if they don't want to. Consider it my last present because I won't do this kind of thing in this thread or this kind of thread.


Here is the answer: conservatives are the most vicious, vile, and downright evil people in the real world. From the baby prisons on the border to Trump's racism, and wanting to turn America into a fascist country and his stupid trade wars, the National Rifle Association is acting like more protection racket at best to a terrorist group at worst, to acts of terror being committed by angry white men with too many guns, to actual Nazis running for Congress as Republicans, and that is the short list.

Then you have conservatives complaining when college kids protest their stupid lectures, but when a liberal like Peter Fonda said something horrible about Barron Trump (and yes he shouldn't have said it) gets into the same trouble not a peep out the right-wing other Juan Williams who gets blasted by the so-called "free speech warriors" for his weak defense of the undefinable or that worthless POS idiot running for Congress talking about screwing his kids, and that useless piece of crap Meyers calling creators he doesn't like as pedophiles or having his brain dead followers attack and harass stores that didn't want to carry his stupid book.

And then conservatives claim to be the silent majority which they are NOT that is progressives and frankly some of on the left are sick of being civil to uncivil stupid bigots. The time of civility is over and you can blame Trump for that since that seems to the only way to prove a point anymore.

In summary: conservatives are stupid vile bigoted insane evil mass murderers. They need to be shown for what they are. That is the painful truth and if you conservative snowflakes can't deal it then go find a safe place and go *SQUEE* off the world will be much better without your stupidity bigotry evil mass murdering in it.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by possumgrease »

It’s sad really. This thread is playing out all across the internet in various forums and in offices, living rooms, etc. Granted, they’re not talking comics, but instead cars, gardening, books, etc. The theme is the same though: “The other side is evil.”

I’m guilty of it.

We’ve made our political parties our football teams. We’ve chosen a side and chosen to identify ourselves as one or the other, ignoring that the inflammatory “issues” championed by each side have varied and crisscrossed over the years.

It’s not about politics, about how we as a collective intend to pool and spend our resources. We’ve made it about something else. Fear of the other.

I feel like we the people are being played. Same plot as the past, just with an updated script.

It’d be nice if we could all get along, but I think that notion is out the door for the time being. It’s the 4th quarter and the game is on the line. Win at all costs. Celebrate over the ashes of the vanquished and then battle again next year.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

Cyberstrike wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:I recommend watching some D&C videos just to see how vicious the comic industry has been to conservatives lately.
You claim the comic book is "vicious" to conservatives and I'll save you watching those stupid videos because I'll tell you.

Just make sure you really want to know why, because I will tell you the 100% brutal honest answer but be warned there is very good chance you won't like it, or me as a result of it, so I'll put it as a spoiler so nobody who doesn't want to be offended by the truth won't have to read it if they don't want to. Consider it my last present because I won't do this kind of thing in this thread or this kind of thread.


Here is the answer: conservatives are the most vicious, vile, and downright evil people in the real world. From the baby prisons on the border to Trump's racism, and wanting to turn America into a fascist country and his stupid trade wars, the National Rifle Association is acting like more protection racket at best to a terrorist group at worst, to acts of terror being committed by angry white men with too many guns, to actual Nazis running for Congress as Republicans, and that is the short list.

Then you have conservatives complaining when college kids protest their stupid lectures, but when a liberal like Peter Fonda said something horrible about Barron Trump (and yes he shouldn't have said it) gets into the same trouble not a peep out the right-wing other Juan Williams who gets blasted by the so-called "free speech warriors" for his weak defense of the undefinable or that worthless POS idiot running for Congress talking about screwing his kids, and that useless piece of crap Meyers calling creators he doesn't like as pedophiles or having his brain dead followers attack and harass stores that didn't want to carry his stupid book.

And then conservatives claim to be the silent majority which they are NOT that is progressives and frankly some of on the left are sick of being civil to uncivil stupid bigots. The time of civility is over and you can blame Trump for that since that seems to the only way to prove a point anymore.

In summary: conservatives are stupid vile bigoted insane evil mass murderers. They need to be shown for what they are. That is the painful truth and if you conservative snowflakes can't deal it then go find a safe place and go *SQUEE* off the world will be much better without your stupidity bigotry evil mass murdering in it.
Nothing i had not read before.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Cyberstrike wrote:You claim the comic book is "vicious" to conservatives and I'll save you watching those stupid videos because I'll tell you.
"Don't form your own opinion by going to the actual source. I know the truth, so just let me tell you what's actually happening." facepalm
Here is the answer: conservatives are the most vicious, vile, and downright evil people in the real world. From the baby prisons on the border to Trump's racism, and wanting to turn America into a fascist country and his stupid trade wars, the National Rifle Association is acting like more protection racket at best to a terrorist group at worst, to acts of terror being committed by angry white men with too many guns, to actual Nazis running for Congress as Republicans, and that is the short list.
First of all, WOW. Secondly, conservative =/= Trump-loving Republican. We're talking comics and ideology.
and that useless piece of crap Meyers calling creators he doesn't like as pedophiles or having his brain dead followers attack and harass stores that didn't want to carry his stupid book.
Literally none of that ever happened.
Just make sure you really want to know why, because I will tell you the 100% brutal honest answer but be warned there is very good chance you won't like it, or me as a result of it, so I'll put it as a spoiler so nobody who doesn't want to be offended by the truth won't have to read it if they don't want to. Consider it my last present because I won't do this kind of thing in this thread or this kind of thread.
You're adorable. ...and deluded. ...and close-minded. ...and rude. Try to break free from the hivemind a little bit bro.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

possumgrease wrote:It’s sad really. This thread is playing out all across the internet in various forums and in offices, living rooms, etc. Granted, they’re not talking comics, but instead cars, gardening, books, etc. The theme is the same though: “The other side is evil.”

I’m guilty of it.

We’ve made our political parties our football teams. We’ve chosen a side and chosen to identify ourselves as one or the other, ignoring that the inflammatory “issues” championed by each side have varied and crisscrossed over the years.

It’s not about politics, about how we as a collective intend to pool and spend our resources. We’ve made it about something else. Fear of the other.

I feel like we the people are being played. Same plot as the past, just with an updated script.

It’d be nice if we could all get along, but I think that notion is out the door for the time being. It’s the 4th quarter and the game is on the line. Win at all costs. Celebrate over the ashes of the vanquished and then battle again next year.
I see what you're saying, but do you see the difference between me/Sven and Cyberstrike? I'm fully aware that I'm playing into the exact paradigm that you're talking about, but just saying, I'm complaining about the "other side," but I'm not calling anyone evil. Not saying the right isn't at fault, but from my point of view, the left, in 2018, is far more toxic.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Chiclo wrote:
Are you referring to the characters or the creators?

All the characters live in big cities and big cities are pretty heavily left-wing, especially near the coasts. It makes sense that most of those characters living in large coastal cities tend to be more liberal.

As for conservative comic creators, Mike Grell and Billy Tucci come to mind.
All of the above. And Grell and Tucci haven't worked on a major book in decades.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Cyberstrike »

TheFerg714 wrote:
possumgrease wrote:It’s sad really. This thread is playing out all across the internet in various forums and in offices, living rooms, etc. Granted, they’re not talking comics, but instead cars, gardening, books, etc. The theme is the same though: “The other side is evil.”

I’m guilty of it.

We’ve made our political parties our football teams. We’ve chosen a side and chosen to identify ourselves as one or the other, ignoring that the inflammatory “issues” championed by each side have varied and crisscrossed over the years.

It’s not about politics, about how we as a collective intend to pool and spend our resources. We’ve made it about something else. Fear of the other.

I feel like we the people are being played. Same plot as the past, just with an updated script.

It’d be nice if we could all get along, but I think that notion is out the door for the time being. It’s the 4th quarter and the game is on the line. Win at all costs. Celebrate over the ashes of the vanquished and then battle again next year.
I see what you're saying, but do you see the difference between me/Sven and Cyberstrike? I'm fully aware that I'm playing into the exact paradigm that you're talking about, but just saying, I'm complaining about the "other side," but I'm not calling anyone evil. Not saying the right isn't at fault, but from my point of view, the left, in 2018, is far more toxic.

No, the right is far toxic.
Who is running the USA? Conservatives. Trump is the most toxic president ever and the GOP are following their beloved leader no matter if leads to depression or WWIII.

The left has been civil for far too long and now we're fighting back and conservative snowflakes like you can't stand it. What I said was the truth and you live in a fantasy land where corporations are going to make the world better and pi$$ money down on you and that God will save us from climate change. And since you insulted me because I told the hard brutal 100% truth now let me tell all of you something: it is useless conservative morons like you that ruin everything I love with your stupid conservative ideology that has done nothing but destroy everything it touches.

So yeah I am very angry at every useless 2 bit conservative and some 2 bit neo-liberal morons telling me how I should I feel any given subject.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Cyberstrike wrote: No, the right is far toxic.
Who is running the USA? Conservatives. Trump is the most toxic president ever and the GOP are following their beloved leader no matter if leads to depression or WWIII.

The left has been civil for far too long and now we're fighting back and conservative snowflakes like you can't stand it. What I said was the truth and you live in a fantasy land where corporations are going to make the world better and pi$$ money down on you and that God will save us from climate change. And since you insulted me because I told the hard brutal 100% truth now let me tell all of you something: it is useless conservative morons like you that ruin everything I love with your stupid conservative ideology that has done nothing but destroy everything it touches.

So yeah I am very angry at every useless 2 bit conservative and some 2 bit neo-liberal morons telling me how I should I feel any given subject.
Yea, you're clearly angry. We can all see that.

First of all, why do you keep lumping me in with climate-change deniers, Trump fans, and corporation-lovers? You know nothing about me. You have no idea what I believe when it comes to politics. You only know that I support Comicsgate, and because of that you feel the need to freak out and literally call people evil because we have differing opinions. It's ridiculous. Let go of your preconceptions and just share ideas. It's possible for conservatives to have different opinions from one another. Tell me, have you ever actually watched one of D&C's videos, or do you just take the liberal hivemind's word for it that he's an evil bigot thats ruining your dying hobby?

And how exactly is conservative ideology ruining the things you love? Please be specific.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

TheFerg714 wrote: It's more of a catch-all term for leftists who try to promote their leftism through any means necessary. For example, the type of people that want to shove diversity down everyone's throats would be sjw's, while someone who supports diversity, in general, might not be considered an sjw. Honestly, it doesn't really matter at all, it's just a word.
Eh -- "sjw" being used by the folks on the right is equivalent to the folks on the left labeling everyone with conservative ideas as "alt-right"

It'd be better to simply stop using both phrases since it results in "gang-like" mentality of "us" versus "them."

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

TheFerg714 wrote:
Zhuge1 wrote:I think in that situation, though, the only loser is Marvel.
...and the comic industry.
I dunno -- I think DC would be fine if more readers abandon Marvel and look for alternatives.
Sure, maybe those books are continuing to be put out, but it's not as if they are the only ones Marvel releases given their huge output. Also, it's possible that they are continuing to put out some of those monthlies with the focus of making some of the money back on the TPB market.
Okay, so why not just cancel the floppies and only sell them in TPB format? The floppies obviously aren't working, and that's going to be proven again when the new Iceman and Wasp series get canceled after 6 issues. It also doesn't help that Marvel wants stores to think that these are hot items, and even when they don't fall for it, send them multiple copies that they didn't ask for.
I assume because they can make more money. Some collectors just collect floppies. While some readers prefer the TPBs. So why not maximize your potential revenue by releasing both types?

But is it really forced if you don't have to read those books and can choose from other options?
Well remember when Thor was Jane, Cap was either Hydra or Sam Wilson, Iron Man was a little black girl, and Hulk was a young Asian kid with complete control over his powers? I think it would be safe to say that there weren't other options then. It all just reeked of identity politics and virtue signaling, but it's admittedly getting better lately. Marvel and Cebulski can clearly see that people don't want to read about this crap and just want their normal heroes back.
I think the important thing to remember is that people aren't *SQUEE* because there aren't enough options out there. The issue is that they don't want the industry to destroy itself by catering to people that don't buy comics.
I don't remember those things to be honest. I haven't read any of that material and am not a huge follower of Marvel. I did see where the Hulk book you mention is available on Amazon's Kindle Unlimited platform, so I'll grab it and see what I think of it.

I can understand that folks would get annoyed with all of the characters being rebooted into new identities at the same time though. But, I do think there are tons of other comic options out there and simply voting with one's dollars is the most effective way to affect change.

I did also go and watch some of the D&C reviews (specifically of a book I read, Black Panther and the Crew), and I didn't find them overly insightful or thorough. It seemed like the reviewer took issue right off the bat with the author without giving the book a try. The book was evidently canceled after six issues, but I read it as a trade, and it honestly came off quite good (to me) as a complete story. And, while there were political undertones, I didn't find them out of context or overly forced.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by ironherc »

Cyberstrike calling conservatives straight up evil is ignorance at it's finest, I'm not even freaking republican and I've been called so many things by sjws and far left idiots who think they are at the ONLY just group. You disagree with them even a little and they will consider you their enemy, heck! even if you agree with them mostly and join their group they will back stab you the moment you show anything that they dislike (look at scarlet johanson for example, super cringy liberal and now they turn against her for getting a role). Many people who are part or agree with comicsgate have seen all the actions of this "pros" and their work and feel the same. But what easier way to vilify people who don't agree with you? call them alt-right and white supremacists and all the buzzwords sjws have overused to death.
For a while now I'm pretty much in the middle with a bit of leaning towards the left since it's better to see both sides since i agree with some things from each. But nop! I'm a white nazi supremacist according to left. This is why comicsgate exist in the first place.
Zhuge1 wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote: It's more of a catch-all term for leftists who try to promote their leftism through any means necessary. For example, the type of people that want to shove diversity down everyone's throats would be sjw's, while someone who supports diversity, in general, might not be considered an sjw. Honestly, it doesn't really matter at all, it's just a word.
Eh -- "sjw" being used by the folks on the right is equivalent to the folks on the left labeling everyone with conservative ideas as "alt-right"

It'd be better to simply stop using both phrases since it results in "gang-like" mentality of "us" versus "them."

Not really, sjws is social justice warriors and most of them take that title pridefully, lately is been used to mock them and they deserve it. calling someone alt right is a serious accusation that they use lightly against anyone who they don't like. Pretty much accused of nazism and some people on twitter for example for months called Ethan Van Sciver a nazi in the hopes that it would stick.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

ironherc wrote:Cyberstrike calling conservatives straight up evil is ignorance at it's finest, I'm not even freaking republican and I've been called so many things by sjws and far left idiots who think they are at the ONLY just group. You disagree with them even a little and they will consider you their enemy, heck! even if you agree with them mostly and join their group they will back stab you the moment you show anything that they dislike (look at scarlet johanson for example, super cringy liberal and now they turn against her for getting a role). Many people who are part or agree with comicsgate have seen all the actions of this "pros" and their work and feel the same. But what easier way to vilify people who don't agree with you? call them alt-right and white supremacists and all the buzzwords sjws have overused to death.
For a while now I'm pretty much in the middle with a bit of leaning towards the left since it's better to see both sides since i agree with some things from each. But nop! I'm a white nazi supremacist according to left. This is why comicsgate exist in the first place.
Zhuge1 wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote: It's more of a catch-all term for leftists who try to promote their leftism through any means necessary. For example, the type of people that want to shove diversity down everyone's throats would be sjw's, while someone who supports diversity, in general, might not be considered an sjw. Honestly, it doesn't really matter at all, it's just a word.
Eh -- "sjw" being used by the folks on the right is equivalent to the folks on the left labeling everyone with conservative ideas as "alt-right"

It'd be better to simply stop using both phrases since it results in "gang-like" mentality of "us" versus "them."

Not really, sjws is social justice warriors and most of them take that title pridefully, lately is been used to mock them and they deserve it. calling someone alt right is a serious accusation that they use lightly against anyone who they don't like. Pretty much accused of nazism and some people on twitter for example for months called Ethan Van Sciver a nazi in the hopes that it would stick.
I'm not sure folks on the left take "SJW" as a prideful title. And it's certainly not used as a title of respect when people from the right use it to describe them.

Extremism on both sides is over the top and unfortunate.

Labeling and name-calling from both sides is similarly over the top and unfortunate (and doesn't result in anything aside from more divisiveness and less discourse).

Labeling someone a Nazi is ridiculous (unless they really and truly believe in Nazism). At the same time, people on the right carelessly throwing around names like "communist" and "socialist" is similarly ridiculous (and shows ignorance with respect to how those political systems operate).

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

So, to try to somewhat steer this back to the topic and to move to a productive discussion --

First -- is comicsgate and the D&C following one and the same? Or simply connected? I'd be interested to hear from those who support comicsgate how they view both.

Second, for those on either side of the issue -- how do you feel about some of the titles from Marvel that are on the radar of D&C? I've read Black Panther and Black Panther and the Crew. I really enjoyed Coates' run on Black Panther through the first main storyline (a Nation Under our Feet). I've read the first trade of his second story arc (Avengers of the New World) and thought it missed a step. I didn't find any political aspects of either that were overly forced (aside from the focus on democracy over monarchy in A Nation Under Our Feet). I've mentioned further up that I was a fan of the Crew title (especially the art -- as a result I've purchased several pages of OA from it) and didn't find any true "forced" politics in it.

What other titles fall on the radar that folks have read? I know the Thor titles featuring the female version; the Hulk comics (Totally Awesome Hulk); and the Captain America books featuring Falcon. What else? Ms. Marvel (which I've heard is quite good)?

Of those books, who has taken the time to read them? Regardless of the politics -- are the stories good?

On the opposite side, who has read the stuff from the D&C guy? I doubt I'll ever come across Jawbreakers, but I did see that he released a large portion of his second graphic novel (Iron Sights) on his funding site (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iron ... tube-books#/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), so I read it. To be honest, I thought the dialog was overly forced in that he seemed to try too hard to throw in offensive words just to add them (and maybe there's some irony in there since he doesn't care for "forced diversity" or politics in comics), but I liked the art and thought the overall story line seemed interesting enough.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Zhuge1 wrote:So, to try to somewhat steer this back to the topic and to move to a productive discussion --

First -- is comicsgate and the D&C following one and the same? Or simply connected? I'd be interested to hear from those who support comicsgate how they view both.
Okay first of all, I really appreciate you just talking. You've actually been making me rethink some things, but we still disagree on a lot, and it's totally fine. I think you're right when you say that the alt-right and sjw essentially have the same function in conversation, but ironherc nailed it on the head when he said they simply mean different things. SJW is meant to mock, and honestly, most sjw's love the title of Social Justice Warrior, whereas being called alt-right and nazi almost never hold any water.
Secondly, I think D&C is just what you would call a figurehead. So yea, he's kind of synonymous with comicsgate in the same way that EVS is, but it's not like all people who support aspects of comicsgate like and/or support D&C as well. I, for one, am a fan, but I disagree with about half of his reviews, and I think sometimes he can take a very shallow approach and almost hate something before he even opens it. I was p***ed about his Valiant reviews. That said, I think he really nails it sometimes, especially when weird politics start cropping up. But really, his bigger "contribution" to comicsgate is his Twitter/culture war videos. He's actually gone through some sketchy crap orchestrated by people like Mark Waid, and he's great at pointing out people who take their politics way too far.
Second, for those on either side of the issue -- how do you feel about some of the titles from Marvel that are on the radar of D&C? I've read Black Panther and Black Panther and the Crew. I really enjoyed Coates' run on Black Panther through the first main storyline (a Nation Under our Feet). I've read the first trade of his second story arc (Avengers of the New World) and thought it missed a step. I didn't find any political aspects of either that were overly forced (aside from the focus on democracy over monarchy in A Nation Under Our Feet). I've mentioned further up that I was a fan of the Crew title (especially the art -- as a result I've purchased several pages of OA from it) and didn't find any true "forced" politics in it.

What other titles fall on the radar that folks have read? I know the Thor titles featuring the female version; the Hulk comics (Totally Awesome Hulk); and the Captain America books featuring Falcon. What else? Ms. Marvel (which I've heard is quite good)?

Of those books, who has taken the time to read them? Regardless of the politics -- are the stories good?
I think he liked the recent Black Panther #1.

I've read some of the stuff he's reviewed, but not all of it obviously. And there has been times where he has actively made me not buy a book.
I read a few issues of Iceman, and agree with everything D&C said about. Iceman's literally a 90's sitcom character being as obviously gay as he possibly can.
And obviously I've read the major books he reviewed like Batman #50 and Man of Steel. I wish I could say that I'd read more of these, as you put it, "on the radar" books, but I tend to read the first issue, realize it sucks, and go on with my day. If D&C and other YouTubers point out stuff that I'd rather not support, I sometimes don't feel the need to try out those books.
So I guess my answer is that I read some of the stuff he reviews, but not all of it, and I agree with some of what he says, but not all of it.
On the opposite side, who has read the stuff from the D&C guy? I doubt I'll ever come across Jawbreakers, but I did see that he released a large portion of his second graphic novel (Iron Sights) on his funding site (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iron ... tube-books#/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), so I read it. To be honest, I thought the dialog was overly forced in that he seemed to try too hard to throw in offensive words just to add them (and maybe there's some irony in there since he doesn't care for "forced diversity" or politics in comics), but I liked the art and thought the overall story line seemed interesting enough.
I don't really care at all about D&C's comics. If it ever comes out in stores for $4, I'll probably pick it up, but I refuse to spend $25 on something that might not even be good.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

Cyberstrike wrote:No, the right is far toxic.
Who is running the USA? Conservatives. Trump is the most toxic president ever and the GOP are following their beloved leader no matter if leads to depression or WWIII.

The left has been civil for far too long and now we're fighting back and conservative snowflakes like you can't stand it. What I said was the truth and you live in a fantasy land where corporations are going to make the world better and pi$$ money down on you and that God will save us from climate change. And since you insulted me because I told the hard brutal 100% truth now let me tell all of you something: it is useless conservative morons like you that ruin everything I love with your stupid conservative ideology that has done nothing but destroy everything it touches.

So yeah I am very angry at every useless 2 bit conservative and some 2 bit neo-liberal morons telling me how I should I feel any given subject.
Trump is not a beloved leader of the GOP. Elected Republicans are as scared of him as elected Democrats and many elected Republicans are actively trying to thwart him. They said of the Nazis that the first country they invaded was their own, it can be said that the first party Trump invaded was the Republicans. One of the best things about President Trump is that he scares the sell-out Republican leadership.

We don't need to be protected from climate change. It is happening, just as it has happened before and will continue to happen again. We survived then and we will survive now. The change in climate is not caused by man nor do we contribute significantly to it.

It has been far too long since we had a trade war. Neocons have pushed free trade (and open borders) for so long that most people have forgotten that there can be benefits to a little economic protectionism. Every dollar taken in tariff displaces a dollar that needs to be taken in from the tax revenue stream. These tariffs give an advantage to American made goods which benefit American workers which then benefits American industries.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by greg »

You're a reasonable guy. What would you cite for this statement?
Chiclo wrote:The change in climate is not caused by man nor do we contribute significantly to it.
Here is a citation that says otherwise: https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Chiclo wrote:
Trump is not a beloved leader of the GOP. Elected Republicans are as scared of him as elected Democrats and many elected Republicans are actively trying to thwart him. They said of the Nazis that the first country they invaded was their own, it can be said that the first party Trump invaded was the Republicans. One of the best things about President Trump is that he scares the sell-out Republican leadership.

We don't need to be protected from climate change. It is happening, just as it has happened before and will continue to happen again. We survived then and we will survive now. The change in climate is not caused by man nor do we contribute significantly to it.

It has been far too long since we had a trade war. Neocons have pushed free trade (and open borders) for so long that most people have forgotten that there can be benefits to a little economic protectionism. Every dollar taken in tariff displaces a dollar that needs to be taken in from the tax revenue stream. These tariffs give an advantage to American made goods which benefit American workers which then benefits American industries.
I don't agree with everything you just said, but people like Cyberstrike (a lot of which happen to be comic pros) think you're an evil, racist, Nazi, white supremacist bigot. :thumb:


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