Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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https://www.blubrry.com/word_balloon_co ... s-bullies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Starts at at the 48 minute mark.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by ironherc »

too lazy to listen to his lies, what's the summary of what he said

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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He is a bit skewed...
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by chriskay99 »

ironherc wrote:too lazy to listen to his lies, what's the summary of what he said
Too lazy to do the work for you.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

I only listened to part of this, and before a few weeks ago I had never heard of comicsgate or d&c. I also only read comics via trades, and even with that, Valiant is the only one I stay up to date on -- I mostly read Marvel stuff via Kindle Unlimited or their sales through Comixology/Amazon. Since I don't really "collect" comics anymore and thus it's fair to say I lag far behind on most of the modern happenings in Marvel/DC.

With all that as a prequel, I thought Waid's point regarding Marvel previously publishing Conan and other non-mainstream books back in the 90's was a good one. Many fans didn't buy those books because they didn't like them or the genre didn't appeal to them (and in many cases, the market adjusted as a result). So, it seems like demand (or lack thereof) would ultimately force course corrections in the big two more than social media campaigns (particularly ones that go over the top) or snarky YouTube reviews.

Clearly there is a following behind the D&C viewpoint (and perhaps it wouldn't be a collective one without those videos), and I have to wonder whether or not losing the publishing deal with Antarctic Press was really a hindrance -- the Indiegogo project raised over 360k which is more than double their highest stretch goal.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Cyberstrike »

ironherc wrote:too lazy to listen to his lies, what's the summary of what he said
Waid is speaking truth while Meyers is a nothing but a lying bigot, just like the rest of the alt-right.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by ironherc »

Cyberstrike wrote:
ironherc wrote:too lazy to listen to his lies, what's the summary of what he said
Waid is speaking truth while Meyers is a nothing but a lying bigot, just like the rest of the alt-right.
oh my god, you almost got all the hive mind insults the far left give him, you just needed to call him a nazi and a racist xd

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by ironherc »

but seriously, i talked to richard c meyer once in a while on twitter and seen his videos, he's not alt-right, he's not a bigot and he seems like a nice guy. He just dislikes the current state of comics which aims towards the sjws and far left politics (mostly from Marvel for the last few years) an audience who very few pick up the books (and if they do read them most do it online from what I've seen, heck a editor once defended this people and antagonize paying costumers). Doesn't help that most creators seem like they are trying to make the industry into a club when they don't want anyone who doesn't believe in their political views and insult costumers (I've seen a lot of this creators in social media and their behavior is disgusting, Waid included). Most of the people who agree with DnC have talked with their wallets yet a lot of this series keep getting revived in one way or another (a big example is the newly revived ice man and wasp books that tanked badly and were given to the same writers that made them fail in the first place). I've lost respect for Mark Waid as he generalizes everyone who follows or watches Richard's videos as alt-right white supremacists (so I am one according to him, even if I'm Mexican). And like how we discussed in the jawbreakers thread, Waid can suffer legal problems for what he did with Antartic Press just cause he doesn't like one youtuber.

Is Richard not the nicest person when he expresses himself? yes, but he really doesn't say anything horrible that anyone with a spine couldn't handle aka professional adults.


P.S not every single creator or comic is sjw material, there's a lot of them still out there and Valiant seems like one of the few companies unaffected by it (though Faith is a little bit of that even if i do like reading it once in a while)

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

ironherc wrote: Most of the people who agree with DnC have talked with their wallets yet a lot of this series keep getting revived in one way or another (a big example is the newly revived ice man and wasp books that tanked badly and were given to the same writers that made them fail in the first place).
So, regarding that example -- I honestly don't understand the reason anyone would be upset about that. Marvel (and DC) puts out a ton of titles -- some of them are going to suck. Over the decades, they've put out lots of crap -- either due to bad art, uninteresting plots or characters, poorly executed story lines, etc. The market dynamics always result in those titles getting canceled fairly quickly and replaced with other stuff, and there are plenty of other options (from those two or other publishers) to choose from.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Cyberstrike wrote:
ironherc wrote:too lazy to listen to his lies, what's the summary of what he said
Waid is speaking truth while Meyers is a nothing but a lying bigot, just like the rest of the alt-right.
Really can't tell if you're serious or not... :hm:




...if you are, I recommend actually watching a few D&C videos and seeing for yourself that he is a lot of things (some understandably offensive), but so clearly isn't a bigot, and definitely not alt-right.
Zhuge1 wrote:
ironherc wrote: Most of the people who agree with DnC have talked with their wallets yet a lot of this series keep getting revived in one way or another (a big example is the newly revived ice man and wasp books that tanked badly and were given to the same writers that made them fail in the first place).
So, regarding that example -- I honestly don't understand the reason anyone would be upset about that. Marvel (and DC) puts out a ton of titles -- some of them are going to suck. Over the decades, they've put out lots of crap -- either due to bad art, uninteresting plots or characters, poorly executed story lines, etc. The market dynamics always result in those titles getting canceled fairly quickly and replaced with other stuff, and there are plenty of other options (from those two or other publishers) to choose from.
The problem is that sjw's tend to not buy comics. They just want virtue signaling, like gay Iceman written like a stereotypical 90's sitcom character, for example. Books like this are applauded by a few people on the internet, and the first few issues sell great, but then people stop caring. The book then gets canceled due to low sales, which makes sense to normal people, but all the sjw's see is the other side winning by kicking out another diversity character. Nutshell.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

TheFerg714 wrote: The problem is that sjw's tend to not buy comics. They just want virtue signaling, like gay Iceman written like a stereotypical 90's sitcom character, for example. Books like this are applauded by a few people on the internet, and the first few issues sell great, but then people stop caring. The book then gets canceled due to low sales, which makes sense to normal people, but all the sjw's see is the other side winning by kicking out another diversity character. Nutshell.
I guess I still don't see why that matters. I sort of equate it to the 90's when the big 2 were pumping out constant gimmicks to sell more books. Remember the X-Force #1 issue that was pre-bagged with one of five or six different cards and everyone jumped to get them all; the Eclipso title that had a plastic jewel attached; or the Death of Superman issues that were pre-bagged to try to force consumers to buy multiple issues.

If these books featuring a gay Iceman or whatever sell good numbers -- that's really the goal for Marvel or DC (to make money). And if they are getting those sales from people who aren't the normal consumer, then great. If those consumers fall off after a couple of issues (with sales declining), then that seems pretty par for the course. In just looking at Valiant -- the first issues (even of mini-series) often sell significantly more copies than the third or fourth issues (with sales usually dropping to a point where you mostly just have the readers that really like the title hanging on).

It seems the big 2 have always done this sort of thing -- stir the pot by coming up with story lines that are going to alienate some of their readers or at least get mainstream media attention so they can sell more books (like Jason Todd being killed by the Joker; Superman dying and seemingly coming back as four different characters; Captain America being addicted to drugs in the Streets of Poison story line; total continuity reboots; and various characters dying and being replaced by others).

And it's not like this is the first time they've introduced "diverse" characters or wrote stories that referenced current events. When the black power movement was going on in the 60's and 70's, characters like Black Lightning, Power Man/Luke Cage, and Black Panther were introduced, primarily as a result of what was going on in society. In the 90's, Marvel had an issue of Alpha Flight where Northstar came out as gay which I recall lots of media hoopla over and they probably sold more copies of that issue than any other since (at least to my recollection) that was sort of a second or third tier comic. Similarly, when the war on drugs was the main thing in the media, they came up with the streets of poison story line in Captain America.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by greg »

I find that people who are constantly talking about the extreme politics in comic books are SEEKING those things to complain about. I'm a regular at several comic book websites and I have comic book articles on my Google news feed. These things don't show up. They might have an article about it once in a while, but it's as easy to skip those articles as it is to skip the comments on YouTube videos. Next. You have to go looking for them, read them, get riled up about them, then complain about them.

If you are willing to go looking for something political to complain about in fictional universes... then there's nothing that society can do that will ever please you. The calls for "less of this" among characters that aren't real are just calls of "look at me". Kind of like this post, which is drawing attention to myself, about how I wish other people would quit looking for things to complain about just to draw attention to themselves. It's so easy, I just did it in 5 minutes, and now it's here forever... my own complaining about other people complaining about things online. But at least the people I'm complaining about are real. :P

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Zhuge1 wrote:I guess I still don't see why that matters. I sort of equate it to the 90's when the big 2 were pumping out constant gimmicks to sell more books. Remember the X-Force #1 issue that was pre-bagged with one of five or six different cards and everyone jumped to get them all; the Eclipso title that had a plastic jewel attached; or the Death of Superman issues that were pre-bagged to try to force consumers to buy multiple issues.

If these books featuring a gay Iceman or whatever sell good numbers -- that's really the goal for Marvel or DC (to make money). And if they are getting those sales from people who aren't the normal consumer, then great. If those consumers fall off after a couple of issues (with sales declining), then that seems pretty par for the course. In just looking at Valiant -- the first issues (even of mini-series) often sell significantly more copies than the third or fourth issues (with sales usually dropping to a point where you mostly just have the readers that really like the title hanging on).

It seems the big 2 have always done this sort of thing -- stir the pot by coming up with story lines that are going to alienate some of their readers or at least get mainstream media attention so they can sell more books (like Jason Todd being killed by the Joker; Superman dying and seemingly coming back as four different characters; Captain America being addicted to drugs in the Streets of Poison story line; total continuity reboots; and various characters dying and being replaced by others).

And it's not like this is the first time they've introduced "diverse" characters or wrote stories that referenced current events. When the black power movement was going on in the 60's and 70's, characters like Black Lightning, Power Man/Luke Cage, and Black Panther were introduced, primarily as a result of what was going on in society. In the 90's, Marvel had an issue of Alpha Flight where Northstar came out as gay which I recall lots of media hoopla over and they probably sold more copies of that issue than any other since (at least to my recollection) that was sort of a second or third tier comic. Similarly, when the war on drugs was the main thing in the media, they came up with the streets of poison story line in Captain America.
The difference is that sjw books sell like garbage. Just like at Faith. It was one of Valiant's highest sellers at first, and it quickly became it's lowest, even after a flashy new #1.
Books like Iceman, the Unstoppable Wasp, Captain Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, and Ms Marvel are routinely in the bottom 10% of Marvel's output, so why do they keep getting renewed?
greg wrote:If you are willing to go looking for something political to complain about in fictional universes...
The problem is that people don't want forced politics in their fictional universes, and yet they seem to be rampant. I think it's slowly starting to get better, but it's not hard to find it. These virtue signaling books almost always sell like crap, and yet their the ones that get media coverage and marketing. It's a huge problem because the whole point of an industry should be to make money, not virtue signal. Leftists don't understand this. They think everything should be about pushing agenda. That's the most moral thing you can do, even if it does mean losing money.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

greg wrote:I find that people who are constantly talking about the extreme politics in comic books are SEEKING those things to complain about. I'm a regular at several comic book websites and I have comic book articles on my Google news feed. These things don't show up. They might have an article about it once in a while, but it's as easy to skip those articles as it is to skip the comments on YouTube videos. Next. You have to go looking for them, read them, get riled up about them, then complain about them.

If you are willing to go looking for something political to complain about in fictional universes... then there's nothing that society can do that will ever please you. The calls for "less of this" among characters that aren't real are just calls of "look at me". Kind of like this post, which is drawing attention to myself, about how I wish other people would quit looking for things to complain about just to draw attention to themselves. It's so easy, I just did it in 5 minutes, and now it's here forever... my own complaining about other people complaining about things online. But at least the people I'm complaining about are real. :P

If you are willing to go looking for something political to complain about in fictional universes... then there's nothing that society can do that will ever please you

Why i am i the ultimate whiner if i have a complaint about an ideological bigot ruining a good story and character with hamfisted politics? Why does oit mean that i am some sort of unhappy whine machine?

Easy to avoid...

The politicxal books don't have a spoecial rating.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Zhuge1 »

TheFerg714 wrote: The difference is that sjw books sell like garbage. Just like at Faith. It was one of Valiant's highest sellers at first, and it quickly became it's lowest, even after a flashy new #1.
Books like Iceman, the Unstoppable Wasp, Captain Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, and Ms Marvel are routinely in the bottom 10% of Marvel's output, so why do they keep getting renewed?
I think in that situation, though, the only loser is Marvel. And it seems like they've always taken risks to sell books and put out material that didn't appeal to the masses. They used to have the Epic line of creator-owned titles and as I recall from the 90's, many of those books just sat on the shelves. There was also the debacle of New Universe in the 80s. I seem to recall at least part of the rationale behind New Universe was that they were trying to get in new comics readers (who didn't know the decades of continuity behind their main titles and give those folks a chance to catch up). The popularity of the Marvel Cinematic Universe has introduced a lot of new people to their characters, and from a business perspective, they may be pumping out many of these diverse books in order to try to capture some of that prospective new reader market. Those books may not appeal to long-time readers, but again with the high output they are likely (from a business perspective) assuming those long-time readers will still purchase some of the other books among their output.

Sure, maybe those books are continuing to be put out, but it's not as if they are the only ones Marvel releases given their huge output. Also, it's possible that they are continuing to put out some of those monthlies with the focus of making some of the money back on the TPB market.
The problem is that people don't want forced politics in their fictional universes, and yet they seem to be rampant. I think it's slowly starting to get better, but it's not hard to find it. These virtue signaling books almost always sell like crap, and yet their the ones that get media coverage and marketing. It's a huge problem because the whole point of an industry should be to make money, not virtue signal. Leftists don't understand this. They think everything should be about pushing agenda. That's the most moral thing you can do, even if it does mean losing money.
But is it really forced if you don't have to read those books and can choose from other options? I can sort of understand when people complain because there's a political slant in the lectures from their kid's teachers (because in some cases, those schools are the only choice for those children), but here there's plenty of options to purchase that don't have those underlying themes.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by greg »

TheFerg714 wrote:The difference is that sjw books sell like garbage. Just like at Faith. It was one of Valiant's highest sellers at first, and it quickly became it's lowest, even after a flashy new #1.
Books like Iceman, the Unstoppable Wasp, Captain Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, and Ms Marvel are routinely in the bottom 10% of Marvel's output, so why do they keep getting renewed?
You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't. I don't run across the "sjw" term anywhere except here. I remember looking it up and seeing that it means "social justice warrior" and it became a popular term when there were calls for university campuses to be places where no one would be criticized for any reason, basically everywhere on campus would be a "safe space".

It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

greg wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:The difference is that sjw books sell like garbage. Just like at Faith. It was one of Valiant's highest sellers at first, and it quickly became it's lowest, even after a flashy new #1.
Books like Iceman, the Unstoppable Wasp, Captain Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, and Ms Marvel are routinely in the bottom 10% of Marvel's output, so why do they keep getting renewed?
You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't. I don't run across the "sjw" term anywhere except here. I remember looking it up and seeing that it means "social justice warrior" and it became a popular term when there were calls for university campuses to be places where no one would be criticized for any reason, basically everywhere on campus would be a "safe space".

It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
We don't want fistfights, campaings to get us homeless a nd bankrupt bu i am unaware of the fact that right wingers on here cannot engage different ideas here.

I am pretty sure the NBA All Star game being moved from Charlotte was not fictional, pretty sure Hillary promised publicize everyone's paycheck for feminism, i am pretty sure we saw major studios falling on their face because of politics.... i could go on and on.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by greg »

Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
We don't want fistfights, campaings to get us homeless a nd bankrupt bu i am unaware of the fact that right wingers on here cannot engage different ideas here.

I am pretty sure the NBA All Star game being moved from Charlotte was not fictional, pretty sure Hillary promised publicize everyone's paycheck for feminism, i am pretty sure we saw major studios falling on their face because of politics.... i could go on and on.
I don't understand any of these references (and some of the words)... but you WERE talking about comic books. Now you're listing things that have nothing to do with comic books.

Sven: Comics shouldn't have X.

Greg: X in a fictional universe isn't real.

Sven: But what about the NBA All-Star game being moved?

Greg (and everyone else reading this): What does that have to do with comic books?

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

greg wrote:
Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
We don't want fistfights, campaings to get us homeless a nd bankrupt bu i am unaware of the fact that right wingers on here cannot engage different ideas here.

I am pretty sure the NBA All Star game being moved from Charlotte was not fictional, pretty sure Hillary promised publicize everyone's paycheck for feminism, i am pretty sure we saw major studios falling on their face because of politics.... i could go on and on.
I don't understand any of these references (and some of the words)... but you WERE talking about comic books. Now you're listing things that have nothing to do with comic books.

Sven: Comics shouldn't have X.

Greg: X in a fictional universe isn't real.

Sven: But what about the NBA All-Star game being moved?

Greg (and everyone else reading this): What does that have to do with comic books?
You:


You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by greg »

Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:
Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
We don't want fistfights, campaings to get us homeless a nd bankrupt bu i am unaware of the fact that right wingers on here cannot engage different ideas here.

I am pretty sure the NBA All Star game being moved from Charlotte was not fictional, pretty sure Hillary promised publicize everyone's paycheck for feminism, i am pretty sure we saw major studios falling on their face because of politics.... i could go on and on.
I don't understand any of these references (and some of the words)... but you WERE talking about comic books. Now you're listing things that have nothing to do with comic books.

Sven: Comics shouldn't have X.

Greg: X in a fictional universe isn't real.

Sven: But what about the NBA All-Star game being moved?

Greg (and everyone else reading this): What does that have to do with comic books?
You:


You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't.
Okayyyyy... you're using "sjw" in relation to comic books like it has some meaning, when it actually has very little meaning in comic books and is rarely used in the real world. What bubble are you in where sjw is a common everyday usage term? (And when will you pop that bubble?)

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:I find that people who are constantly talking about the extreme politics in comic books are SEEKING those things to complain about. I'm a regular at several comic book websites and I have comic book articles on my Google news feed. These things don't show up. They might have an article about it once in a while, but it's as easy to skip those articles as it is to skip the comments on YouTube videos. Next. You have to go looking for them, read them, get riled up about them, then complain about them.

If you are willing to go looking for something political to complain about in fictional universes... then there's nothing that society can do that will ever please you. The calls for "less of this" among characters that aren't real are just calls of "look at me". Kind of like this post, which is drawing attention to myself, about how I wish other people would quit looking for things to complain about just to draw attention to themselves. It's so easy, I just did it in 5 minutes, and now it's here forever... my own complaining about other people complaining about things online. But at least the people I'm complaining about are real. :P

If you are willing to go looking for something political to complain about in fictional universes... then there's nothing that society can do that will ever please you

Why i am i the ultimate whiner if i have a complaint about an ideological bigot ruining a good story and character with hamfisted politics? Why does oit mean that i am some sort of unhappy whine machine?

Easy to avoid...

The politicxal books don't have a spoecial rating.
The best comics are going to reflect the world outside our window, so to speak. There is a whole range of ideologies out there, right outside my window. A neighbour three doors down from me has put up a campaign sign for the woman running for governor as a Democrat, right in my own neighbourhood.

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Chiclo
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:
Sven the Returned wrote:
greg wrote:It's pretty ironic that you guys constantly complain about "sjws" because you want all of your fictional campuses to be safe spaces. :lol:
We don't want fistfights, campaings to get us homeless a nd bankrupt bu i am unaware of the fact that right wingers on here cannot engage different ideas here.

I am pretty sure the NBA All Star game being moved from Charlotte was not fictional, pretty sure Hillary promised publicize everyone's paycheck for feminism, i am pretty sure we saw major studios falling on their face because of politics.... i could go on and on.
I don't understand any of these references (and some of the words)... but you WERE talking about comic books. Now you're listing things that have nothing to do with comic books.

Sven: Comics shouldn't have X.

Greg: X in a fictional universe isn't real.

Sven: But what about the NBA All-Star game being moved?

Greg (and everyone else reading this): What does that have to do with comic books?
You:


You guys use the term "sjw" like it's normal everyday conversation for the rest of the world. It isn't.
I think the acronym sjw is something relatively few in the population over the age of 30 or maybe 35 is going to use regularly. It is kidspeak, running around listening to their Ke$has or what have you. I am over 35 myself and the radio in my car doesn't work anymore so I don't know what the current music is. And I have a flip phone so I am really disconnected from text speak. I am like those people on that commercial in the dad support group - I text in full sentences, defence wins championships and why would I replace this, it's not broken.

We use a lot of acronyms as Valiant fans that most people don't get. I remember more than once having to look up CEAR when I started posting here over 10 years ago. After a while, it became a daily bit of jargon for me and I never really thought about the acronym not having meaning for people outside our little group.

Why are you comicsgate people forcing me to agree with Greg so much? It's not natural. We civilly disagree on almost everything that is not comic related.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by depluto »

Social Justice Warrior sounds like a cool job title.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

depluto wrote:Social Justice Warrior sounds like a cool job title.
You are too relaxed. You need to be the kind of guy who gets *SQUEE* off about everything to do it right.

They just worry themselves into an early grave.


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