Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by jeremycoe »

His Watchmen contract said once it was out of print the rights reverted back to him. At the time that was understood to be a couple of years at most. I'm not saying I agree with him on many things, but I think he has a right to complain in this instance.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by lorddunlow »

jeremycoe wrote:His Watchmen contract said once it was out of print the rights reverted back to him. At the time that was understood to be a couple of years at most. I'm not saying I agree with him on many things, but I think he has a right to complain in this instance.
I'm quite sure only he and DC lawyers know what his contract said. There was very likely some clause that kept him from getting his rights back. He probably didn't use a lawyer when he signed his contract. Lawyers are paid to make contracts nebulous and tricky. I was given advice on contracts by a colleague (in reference to dealing with hospital corporations - but it's applicable to any corporate entity): when shaking hands with a hospital, one should could count their fingers afterward. I would say a good rule of thumb is that if you are working at a place that usually retains rights/royalties for the work created by employees, then you should assume you will not get the rights back - at least not without spending lots of money to out work their own lawyers.

Not that I think what has happened with almost every creation of his is fair. I hate that he has no control over the great characters he has created. I just think he plays the victim way to much. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here I would think.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by kjjohanson »

erwinrafael wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:Dale Keown and Sam Kieth were both active in the '80s but weren't really recognized names until the '90s.
Sam Kieth did get recognized in the 1980s. He hit the jackpot when he illustrated the first issues of Neil gaiman's Sandman.
While it's true that he was the initial artist on Sandman starting in '89, I don't remember any buzz specifically about his work at the time.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by kjjohanson »

lorddunlow wrote:
jeremycoe wrote:His Watchmen contract said once it was out of print the rights reverted back to him. At the time that was understood to be a couple of years at most. I'm not saying I agree with him on many things, but I think he has a right to complain in this instance.
I'm quite sure only he and DC lawyers know what his contract said. There was very likely some clause that kept him from getting his rights back. He probably didn't use a lawyer when he signed his contract. Lawyers are paid to make contracts nebulous and tricky. I was given advice on contracts by a colleague (in reference to dealing with hospital corporations - but it's applicable to any corporate entity): when shaking hands with a hospital, one should could count their fingers afterward. I would say a good rule of thumb is that if you are working at a place that usually retains rights/royalties for the work created by employees, then you should assume you will not get the rights back - at least not without spending lots of money to out work their own lawyers.

Not that I think what has happened with almost every creation of his is fair. I hate that he has no control over the great characters he has created. I just think he plays the victim way to much. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here I would think.
But then, he didn't exactly create those characters. Initially Watchmen was written using the Charlton heroes, but was later changed when DC decided they were going to introduce them into the larger DCU. I don't know how much tweaking was done to the characters at that point, as I never read any of the Charlton stuff.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by lorddunlow »

kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:
jeremycoe wrote:His Watchmen contract said once it was out of print the rights reverted back to him. At the time that was understood to be a couple of years at most. I'm not saying I agree with him on many things, but I think he has a right to complain in this instance.
I'm quite sure only he and DC lawyers know what his contract said. There was very likely some clause that kept him from getting his rights back. He probably didn't use a lawyer when he signed his contract. Lawyers are paid to make contracts nebulous and tricky. I was given advice on contracts by a colleague (in reference to dealing with hospital corporations - but it's applicable to any corporate entity): when shaking hands with a hospital, one should could count their fingers afterward. I would say a good rule of thumb is that if you are working at a place that usually retains rights/royalties for the work created by employees, then you should assume you will not get the rights back - at least not without spending lots of money to out work their own lawyers.

Not that I think what has happened with almost every creation of his is fair. I hate that he has no control over the great characters he has created. I just think he plays the victim way to much. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here I would think.
But then, he didn't exactly create those characters. Initially Watchmen was written using the Charlton heroes, but was later changed when DC decided they were going to introduce them into the larger DCU. I don't know how much tweaking was done to the characters at that point, as I never read any of the Charlton stuff.
Rorschach = The Question
Captain Atom = Doctor Manhattan
Night Owl = Blue Beetle
Silk Spectre = Nightshade
Comedian = Peacemaker
Ozymandias = Thunderbolt
Well, then. That makes his case an even flimsier one.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by kjjohanson »

lorddunlow wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:
jeremycoe wrote:His Watchmen contract said once it was out of print the rights reverted back to him. At the time that was understood to be a couple of years at most. I'm not saying I agree with him on many things, but I think he has a right to complain in this instance.
I'm quite sure only he and DC lawyers know what his contract said. There was very likely some clause that kept him from getting his rights back. He probably didn't use a lawyer when he signed his contract. Lawyers are paid to make contracts nebulous and tricky. I was given advice on contracts by a colleague (in reference to dealing with hospital corporations - but it's applicable to any corporate entity): when shaking hands with a hospital, one should could count their fingers afterward. I would say a good rule of thumb is that if you are working at a place that usually retains rights/royalties for the work created by employees, then you should assume you will not get the rights back - at least not without spending lots of money to out work their own lawyers.

Not that I think what has happened with almost every creation of his is fair. I hate that he has no control over the great characters he has created. I just think he plays the victim way to much. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here I would think.
But then, he didn't exactly create those characters. Initially Watchmen was written using the Charlton heroes, but was later changed when DC decided they were going to introduce them into the larger DCU. I don't know how much tweaking was done to the characters at that point, as I never read any of the Charlton stuff.
Rorschach = The Question
Captain Atom = Doctor Manhattan
Night Owl = Blue Beetle
Silk Spectre = Nightshade
Comedian = Peacemaker
Ozymandias = Thunderbolt
Well, then. That makes his case an even flimsier one.
What I think is funny about this, in retrospect, is that if they had just kept the Charlton heroes in the original roles, but still presented the book as a sort of alternate universe story (kind of like Dark Knight Returns), DC probably would have sold tons more books with those characters when they introduced them in the DCU.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by leonmallett »

One of my issues with Moore and his stance on 'his' characters being used by others, and his ideas/concepts being the foundation of all in the DCU (I paraphrase), is his use of other literary works and creations on LXG. Can't argue it both ways IMHO.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by lorddunlow »

leonmallett wrote:One of my issues with Moore and his stance on 'his' characters being used by others, and his ideas/concepts being the foundation of all in the DCU (I paraphrase), is his use of other literary works and creations on LXG. Can't argue it both ways IMHO.
That's a very good point.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by The Spider »

kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:
jeremycoe wrote:His Watchmen contract said once it was out of print the rights reverted back to him. At the time that was understood to be a couple of years at most. I'm not saying I agree with him on many things, but I think he has a right to complain in this instance.
I'm quite sure only he and DC lawyers know what his contract said. There was very likely some clause that kept him from getting his rights back. He probably didn't use a lawyer when he signed his contract. Lawyers are paid to make contracts nebulous and tricky. I was given advice on contracts by a colleague (in reference to dealing with hospital corporations - but it's applicable to any corporate entity): when shaking hands with a hospital, one should could count their fingers afterward. I would say a good rule of thumb is that if you are working at a place that usually retains rights/royalties for the work created by employees, then you should assume you will not get the rights back - at least not without spending lots of money to out work their own lawyers.

Not that I think what has happened with almost every creation of his is fair. I hate that he has no control over the great characters he has created. I just think he plays the victim way to much. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here I would think.
But then, he didn't exactly create those characters. Initially Watchmen was written using the Charlton heroes, but was later changed when DC decided they were going to introduce them into the larger DCU. I don't know how much tweaking was done to the characters at that point, as I never read any of the Charlton stuff.
Rorschach = The Question
Captain Atom = Doctor Manhattan
Night Owl = Blue Beetle
Silk Spectre = Nightshade
Comedian = Peacemaker
Ozymandias = Thunderbolt
I read some of the Charlton stuff and Moore's Watchmen proposal (they had it in Absolute Watchmen).

The Question and Rorschach are kind of similar, but Rorschach's an outcast of society right from the start while The Question, in his identity as Vic Sage, was a TV investigative journalist with a loyal crew. The Question was also similar to another Ditko-owned creation, Mr. A.
Captain Atom's a military man while Dr. Manhattan was a scientist/watchmaker. Both do get their powers from an explosive accident they couldn't escape from (though the circumstances were different)
Silk Spectre has no similarities to Nightshade other than being Manhattan's girlfriend (Nightshade was attached to Captain Atom during the Charlton comics--a major difference between Silk Spectre and Nightshade is that Nightshade has powers, Silk Spectre doesn't). Moore said in his proposal he wasn't sure what to do for Nightshade at that time, and when he was allowed to do his own characters he ditched everything else about Nightshade. I think in an interview he said he was going for a Black Canary, Phantom Lady, type of superheroine.
Nite Owl (Dan Dreiberg) has a few similarities to the Ted Kord Blue Beetle; both had a superhero predecessor, both are proficient with gadgetry, both have a flying vehicle with their motif (Dan has the Owlship or "Archie" as he calls it, Ted has The Bug). Other than maybe the general usage of goggles, Dan's costume is closer to Batman's than Blue Beetle's.
Comedian has very little similarities to Peacemaker. Going by the Watchmen proposal, Moore described Comedian as "a one man super-hero version of the Dirty Tricks divison of the C.I.A." and mentioned how Comedian would be ordered to overthrow governments or kill unsympathetic foreign leaders. When Moore was still using Peacemaker, he only mentioned the character's actions as "some of his duties included government internal investigation and a little spying here and there" so it didn't seem like Moore was going to make Peacemaker as dark as Comedian.
Ozymandias' origin is different from Thunderbolt's, as I recall. I'll have to look them up again, but I remember that Thunderbolt's origin is similar to the Golden Age character Amazing-Man's, whose origin was also used as an inspiration for Marvel's Iron Fist.

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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by ShadowTuga »

Jim Lee, Kelly Jones, Greg Cappulo, Nobuhiro Watsuki (Rurouni Kenshin).
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by dave »

Whilce Portacio. I was bummed that personal problems seemed to completely derail his career.

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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by kevinbastos »

dave wrote:Whilce Portacio. I was bummed that personal problems seemed to completely derail his career.
What happened to the guy?

One of my faves.

Image

I know it may be blasphemy, but I also loved McFarlane's Spider-Man.

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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by kjjohanson »

kevinbastos wrote:
dave wrote:Whilce Portacio. I was bummed that personal problems seemed to completely derail his career.
What happened to the guy?

One of my faves.

I know it may be blasphemy, but I also loved McFarlane's Spider-Man.
Why is that blasphemy? (Assuming that you're talking about his take on depicting Spider-Man, rather than the title Spider-Man, which should have had a real writer.)
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by kevinbastos »

kjjohanson wrote:
kevinbastos wrote:
dave wrote:Whilce Portacio. I was bummed that personal problems seemed to completely derail his career.
What happened to the guy?

One of my faves.

I know it may be blasphemy, but I also loved McFarlane's Spider-Man.
Why is that blasphemy? (Assuming that you're talking about his take on depicting Spider-Man, rather than the title Spider-Man, which should have had a real writer.)
Yes. Amazing. Great stuff. But not really nineties. Nineties WAS Spider-Man. And that stuff - while I bought it through 25 - was junky.

Well. The cover for 13 was pretty sweet.
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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by tarheelmarine »

The Noto wrote:I think he was doing work prior to the 90s too, but Dan Jurgens will forever be one of my favorite artists.
I'm a big fan of his as well. He is a good writer/artist combo.

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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by tarheelmarine »

x-omatic wrote:
I also loved Kelly Jones on Batman. The creepy and spooky he brought added to the book.
Kelly Jones was the definitive Batman artist for the 90s.

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Re: Your favorite 1990s breakthrough artist

Post by dave »

I loathed Kelly Jones' Batman. If it hadn't been for Knightfall I would have stopped buying Batman because of the bad covers. Batman's ears don't need to be four feet long.


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