"Why can't Superman be black?"

[Shadowman99]

Something's been on my mind for a while and I've been unsure whether or not to post it here on the forum to see what you comic book guys think about it, and it keeps popping back into mind whenever I log on, so here it is. Hopefully this'll get it off my chest!

I had a conversation a few weeks ago with someone (non comic book type person) I'd never met previously, and they got around to talking about race and how it shouldn't be a big deal and blah blah blah all that stuff.

Then they somehow shoehorned the latest Superman film into the conversation and ended up asking "Why can't Superman be black?"

And we nattered about it a bit, and it seemed to me that they were suggesting that the character's race be changed, more or less, just for the sake of it

I'm sure that on Marvel forums and possibly even this one there have been discussions on the changing of Nick Fury's race because of the actor that played him in the Avengers Assemble film, but to me Superman's a completely different ball game.

As a non-Marvel reader, Nick Fury for the most part is "Who??", so I don't see as changing his race is a particularly big deal. He's never really been a household name before. But talk to any granny or kid and they'll tell you exactly what Superman's outfit looks like. A few people might even know his other name 'Clark Kent'.

Superman is a world famous icon. Everybody knows who he is, what he does and what he looks like. The visual design of the character has become THE staple look for superheroes as far as the everyday Joe is concerned. Hand a pen and paper to anyone in the street and get them to draw a superhero. Nine times out of ten they'll draw a guy with a cape and pants over top of his tights.

So the main question is this: Why can't Superman be black?

Can he? Can't he?

My thoughts on the matter are probably clear enough by now, but I don't think Superman can be black. I think he's become such an incredible visual icon that to change him in any way would just make him a different character altogether.

Superman is Clark Kent, who changes clothes in phone boxes from time to time.
Superman wears a blue suit with a red cape and red pants.
Superman has black hair with a twirly fringe.
Superman has white skin.

Change any of these, and in my opinion, it's a different character.

[Savant]

I've always found that, "Why can't _insert character_ be Black?," stance to be completely inane.

Number one, why aren't these same people saying Superman should be Asian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic, or any other ethnicity? Why the focus on him being Black?

Number two, changing the character's ethnicity is a drastic change to the character's imagery and background.

Did we have people asking, in regard to the new Star Trek films, why Captain Kirk wasn't Black, why Spock wasn't Samoan, why Uhura wasn't a pale redhead, why Sulu wasn't Colombian, and why Bones wasn't Saudi?

Do people want the ethnicity of Game of Thrones characters to change by season? Have Joffrey come back for season 4 played by an Asian, Daenerys Targaryen played by a Sri Lankan actress, Tyrion Lannister played by an M'Butu Pygmy, and so on?

As for Nick Fury, they based the film version of the character off the Ultimate Universe version (Which looked exactly like Samuel L Jackson).

Back to Superman, you should've told this guy we already have Icon. He should go read Icon's comics, and demand a film based on the character.

[Chiclo]

Wasn't there a black Superman in another DC universe during that whole 52 Earths thing? I seem to remember that from Final Crisis but memories of Final Crisis are a bit like what I imagine an acid flashback is like.

[greg]

Superman was black. Shaquille O'Neal even played him in a movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_%28film%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That movie made tens of dollars... it was huge.

[ShadowTuga]

Wasn't there a black Superman in another DC universe during that whole 52 Earths thing? I seem to remember that from Final Crisis but memories of Final Crisis are a bit like what I imagine an acid flashback is like.

Same here. Worst comic experience ever. And I do like GM's work.

[Savant]

Wasn't there a black Superman in another DC universe during that whole 52 Earths thing? I seem to remember that from Final Crisis but memories of Final Crisis are a bit like what I imagine an acid flashback is like.

Same here. Worst comic experience ever. And I do like GM's work.

There was an appearance of an alternate earth Black Superman in an issue of Action Comics (Morrison's run). An excellent issue, if I must say so myself.

[MarrowMan]

Superman was black. Shaquille O'Neal even played him in a movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_%28film%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That movie made tens of dollars... it was huge.

[Heath]

Nick Fury's race wasn't changed.

In the regular Marvel universe, Nick Fury is and always has been white.

The FOX TV Movie "Nick Fury" was based on the regular Marvel universe and therefor, Nick Fury was white (played by David Hasselhoff).

In the alternate Ultimate Marvel universe, Nick Fury is and always has been black (his design based on Samuel L. Jackson).

The Avengers film universe is based on the Ultimate Marvel universe, and therefor Nick Fury is black (played by Samuel L. Jackson). This version of the character is also the version to more recent cartoons.

As that film universe has created the most mainstream knowledge of Nick Fury, and as nobody remembers the TV movie, and as relatively few people read comics when compared to people who see movies, the overriding public perception of Nick Fury is that he's black and looks like Samuel L. Jackson.

In the regular Marvel universe, to lessen the confusion of any new readers who's introduction to Nick Fury was through the films, a black Nick Fury Jr. was introduced. This black Nick Fury Jr. is the illegitimate son of white Nick Fury Sr. who has now retired from S.H.I.E.L.D. Nick Fury Jr. looks like Samuel L. Jackson and has taken his father's place at S.H.I.E.L.D.

Some of the above information is according to Wikipedia.

[Chiclo]

Superman was black. Shaquille O'Neal even played him in a movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_%28film%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That movie made tens of dollars... it was huge.

Was that the one where he was a genie that lived in an enchanted boom box and made it rain skittles?

[greg]

Superman was black. Shaquille O'Neal even played him in a movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_%28film%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That movie made tens of dollars... it was huge.

Was that the one where he was a genie that lived in an enchanted boom box and made it rain skittles?

Yes.


No, wait.

That was based on another Golden Age comic book.

Shazam.

[Cyberstrike]

Legends of the DCU: Crisis On Infinte Earths Special #1 had a very multi-ethic JLA including IIRC a black Superman.

As to why Superman can't be black , because there are a lot of fans would never accept a black Superman in the main DCU PERIOD. They can't (and in some cases won't) accept it just like a lot of people can't accept that a black man is President of the USA. Sure you can do a character like Icon (IIRC who is essentionally a black Superman), but man the fan reaction if he were too become the new Superman would be so negative that I don't see much that DC would gain in the unlikely event DC would do it.

[slym2none]

You should see what some people think about the Human Torch possibly being black... nvrmnd what would happen if Superman was cast as anything but a white guy.





-slym

[IMJ]

Well.

Why can't he be white? Why can't we appreciate the icons the way that they are, and incorporate new icons rather than adjusting a legacy for no real reason other than a bullying argument (because make no mistake - that's exactly what the "why can't..." race argument is)?

Why can't people appreciate these mythical icons for what they are, and work to create new ones based on their love of the medium?

Next time someone asks you a question like that, incorporate some questions of your own that are just as obvious, and just as unfalsifiable. It's our job to create a fair society, but also our job to resist being pushed around and diminished by a wild race card.

[Cyberstrike]

Well.

Why can't he be white? Why can't we appreciate the icons the way that they are, and incorporate new icons rather than adjusting a legacy for no real reason other than a bullying argument (because make no mistake - that's exactly what the "why can't..." race argument is)?

Why can't people appreciate these mythical icons for what they are, and work to create new ones based on their love of the medium?

Next time someone asks you a question like that, incorporate some questions of your own that are just as obvious, and just as unfalsifiable. It's our job to create a fair society, but also our job to resist being pushed around and diminished by a wild race card.

Put yourself in a black comic book/sci-fi fan's shoes. Who is their Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Iron Man, Captain America , Flash, Dr. Who, and etc. Sure they pop up as an alternate universe versions. But those never last. I have no problem with a black Superman or any of the other characters if it was done in a way that respected the history.

[Chiclo]

You should see what some people think about the Human Torch possibly being black... nvrmnd what would happen if Superman was cast as anything but a white guy.





-slym

I assume you mean Johnny Storm? If he is black, then either they would have to adjust his relationship to Sue or adjust her race too.

I suppose that it would be possible for Dr. Phineas Horton's amazing mechanical man to be black but it would seem awfully out of place for a dark-skinned golem in the 1930s.

[Heath]

Put yourself in a black comic book/sci-fi fan's shoes. Who is their Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Iron Man, Captain America , Flash, Dr. Who, and etc.

I agree. Why can't black people have their own black superheroes instead of taking our white ones? Black comic book/sci-fi fans have no business being inspired and entertained by white heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, and those others... especially Captain America. They can have Captain Africa and Giraffe-man. Leave Captain America and Batman to us. And they already have their own version of Spider-Man called Anansi. Leave the Peter Parker version to white people.

The above is satire to illustrate the ridiculousness of all of this. Who is "their" Superman? Superman is! Who is "their" Wonder Woman? Wonder Woman, of course! "Their" Iron Man is not War Machine - it's Iron Man. Same goes for Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman. Who is "our" Falcon, Black Panther, Icon, Luke Cage? Why do we have to insist on dividing ourselves along racial lines? We celebrate the desegregation of the 60s. But we're still segregating ourselves. Instead of going to separate schools and drinking from separate water fountains, we have separate awards shows and separate TV channels and separate slang words and separate rules. Black on white crime is just crime. White on black crime is a special "hate crime" with separate level of penalties.

"Their" superheroes... "Our" superheroes... Give me a break.

[lorddunlow]

Love the above post, Heath! I definitely agree. I also agree with whoever it was that pointed out there are other races besides white and black.

One of my favorite things about living in Memphis is the diversity - there are so many interracial couples here that no one thinks anything of it, and it's not just black/white mix. Hispanic, Asian, Middle eastern all thrown in the mix.

[IMJ]

Put yourself in a black comic book/sci-fi fan's shoes. Who is their Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Iron Man, Captain America , Flash, Dr. Who, and etc. Sure they pop up as an alternate universe versions. But those never last. I have no problem with a black Superman or any of the other characters if it was done in a way that respected the history.

This is a ridiculous point. There's no empathy that's needed here, LMAO! Who is their Superman? Superman is. If race isn't a big deal, then it shouldn't be a problem for the characters to be as they were created.

The above is satire to illustrate the ridiculousness of all of this. Who is "their" Superman? Superman is! Who is "their" Wonder Woman? Wonder Woman, of course! "Their" Iron Man is not War Machine - it's Iron Man. Same goes for Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman. Who is "our" Falcon, Black Panther, Icon, Luke Cage? Why do we have to insist on dividing ourselves along racial lines? We celebrate the desegregation of the 60s. But we're still segregating ourselves. Instead of going to separate schools and drinking from separate water fountains, we have separate awards shows and separate TV channels and separate slang words and separate rules. Black on white crime is just crime. White on black crime is a special "hate crime" with separate level of penalties.

"Their" superheroes... "Our" superheroes... Give me a break.

We made the same point here and it's hysterical because it's so obvious. You'll have to take me at my word that I wrote the above in response to Cyberstrike's post before I read yours, Heath. Hysterical. That's how obvious it is.

[Cyberstrike]

Put yourself in a black comic book/sci-fi fan's shoes. Who is their Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Iron Man, Captain America , Flash, Dr. Who, and etc.

I agree. Why can't black people have their own black superheroes instead of taking our white ones? Black comic book/sci-fi fans have no business being inspired and entertained by white heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, and those others... especially Captain America. They can have Captain Africa and Giraffe-man. Leave Captain America and Batman to us. And they already have their own version of Spider-Man called Anansi. Leave the Peter Parker version to white people.

The above is satire to illustrate the ridiculousness of all of this. Who is "their" Superman? Superman is! Who is "their" Wonder Woman? Wonder Woman, of course! "Their" Iron Man is not War Machine - it's Iron Man. Same goes for Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman. Who is "our" Falcon, Black Panther, Icon, Luke Cage? Why do we have to insist on dividing ourselves along racial lines? We celebrate the desegregation of the 60s. But we're still segregating ourselves. Instead of going to separate schools and drinking from separate water fountains, we have separate awards shows and separate TV channels and separate slang words and separate rules. Black on white crime is just crime. White on black crime is a special "hate crime" with separate level of penalties.

"Their" superheroes... "Our" superheroes... Give me a break.

No, they're not. You're way too conservative to understand.

[lorddunlow]

Put yourself in a black comic book/sci-fi fan's shoes. Who is their Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Iron Man, Captain America , Flash, Dr. Who, and etc.

I agree. Why can't black people have their own black superheroes instead of taking our white ones? Black comic book/sci-fi fans have no business being inspired and entertained by white heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, and those others... especially Captain America. They can have Captain Africa and Giraffe-man. Leave Captain America and Batman to us. And they already have their own version of Spider-Man called Anansi. Leave the Peter Parker version to white people.

The above is satire to illustrate the ridiculousness of all of this. Who is "their" Superman? Superman is! Who is "their" Wonder Woman? Wonder Woman, of course! "Their" Iron Man is not War Machine - it's Iron Man. Same goes for Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman. Who is "our" Falcon, Black Panther, Icon, Luke Cage? Why do we have to insist on dividing ourselves along racial lines? We celebrate the desegregation of the 60s. But we're still segregating ourselves. Instead of going to separate schools and drinking from separate water fountains, we have separate awards shows and separate TV channels and separate slang words and separate rules. Black on white crime is just crime. White on black crime is a special "hate crime" with separate level of penalties.

"Their" superheroes... "Our" superheroes... Give me a break.

No, they're not. You're way too conservative to understand.

I agree with Heath and to call me conservative (a very socialist leaning, science-loving, diversity-loving person that I am) is laughable.

My LCS is in a predominantly poor black neighborhood, and the rogues gallery that hangs out there is about 40% white, 40% black, and 20% asian (I have yet to see any Hispanic or Middle Eastern individuals). The blacks and asian wear Superman, Batman, Flash, Hulk, Spiderman, etc. all the time. I think they enjoy them just as much. I enjoy Storm as a character very much. I enjoy Livewire and Harada very much. My favorite character is the Bleeding Monk. I am neither black nor Asian. They can't be "my" heroes because I'm white? That's ludicrous. I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be an advocate for separate, but equal instead of let's all just have heroes and not care about their race unless it is integral to their character. If your argument is there are not enough MAJOR ethnic superheroes, that is probably true, but it is a side effect of the times when the great characters were created - two Jewish fellas in the early twentieth century basing a character on the golem from Jewish mythology are not going to make that character black, especially since in the 30s I doubt black children were even allowed where comic books were sold. I'm sure in 20 years someone will post "why can't Harada be white?"

Edit: I forgot to mention pacifist. I'm pacifist - big time. Not conservative - in any way.

[IMJ]

No, they're not. You're way too conservative to understand.

Okay fine, but either way your argument is flawed, circumplexic logic. Here are the correct assumptions based on your paradigm.
If it's true that these characters belong to the world, then their heritage shouldn't be changed, and it shouldn't matter that they remain coded to their heritage because it's "about the character"

On the other hand,

If it's true that these characters have a "white" heritage, and you want us to subscribe to that belief, then they shouldn't change because you are converting "our" characters to "yours" and therefore disregarding "us" for "you".

It's utterly ridiculous that the world is entering a phase of high context theft and hostile takeover by guise of "sensitivity". What will be the next con when the "sensitivity" flingers begin to be disregarded because their argument has been abused and manipulated beyond recognition?

[Heath]

No, they're not. You're way too conservative to understand.

You're too liberal to recognize your own racism.

[SnotDrip]

Where did he go....thought Superman was back and for some time now

[IMJ]

Where did he go....thought Superman was back and for some time now

Snotdrip ladies and gentlemen... he's here every week... -cha ching cha-

[maraxusofkeld]

No, they're not. You're way too conservative to understand.

Okay fine, but either way your argument is flawed, circumplexic logic. Here are the correct assumptions based on your paradigm.
If it's true that these characters belong to the world, then their heritage shouldn't be changed, and it shouldn't matter that they remain coded to their heritage because it's "about the character"

On the other hand,

If it's true that these characters have a "white" heritage, and you want us to subscribe to that belief, then they shouldn't change because you are converting "our" characters to "yours" and therefore disregarding "us" for "you".

It's utterly ridiculous that the world is entering a phase of high context theft and hostile takeover by guise of "sensitivity". What will be the next con when the "sensitivity" flingers begin to be disregarded because their argument has been abused and manipulated beyond recognition?