"Why can't Superman be black?"

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by nutflush76 »

I think that these questions usually originate from people outside the comics world. Most people who read comics accept the heroes the way that they are. until someone like Andrew Garfield asks "Why can't Spider-man be gay?" Umm because he's not gay. To change the character for the sake of making a change is ridiculous and actually has the reverse effect. I can tell you right now, if they made Superman, the Superman of Action Comics, Superman, Superman Unchained, etc. black for no other reason than to have a black Superman, just as many black (% wise at least since the majority of comic readers are white) readers would drop Superman as would white readers.

Is it because I think we are all racist? No. I think that comic readers are intelligent enough to know when a company is pandering to the special interests by changing a character's race just because.

In reality, I think that the biggest reason that Superman can't be black is that black characters just don't have the same selling power as white characters. There are many good black characters out there. John Stewart, Luke Cage, Black panther, Blade, Storm but none of those have ever really had much traction as solo characters. This is probably because there are far more white kids reading comics than black kids, I'm not getting into reasons why that may be those are just the facts, so it makes sense that they

Now, if the powers that be at Marvel (not a whole lot of Black DC charcters come to my mind for some reason) decided to put a big name rider, say Bendis, on a black character, you might be able to get a good following if you pair him with a big-time artist. But that probably isn't going to happen since the big 2 aren't really in the business of building up their C-list characters.

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Savant »

nutflush76 wrote:
In reality, I think that the biggest reason that Superman can't be black is that black characters just don't have the same selling power as white characters. There are many good black characters out there. John Stewart, Luke Cage, Black panther, Blade, Storm but none of those have ever really had much traction as solo characters. This is probably because there are far more white kids reading comics than black kids, I'm not getting into reasons why that may be those are just the facts, so it makes sense that they
Probably depends on the area. I'm in Dallas, and I've been to a local comic convention and there was a surprisingly large percentage of Blacks at the con. My (then)-girlfriend, who's Black, even commented on it.

I also notice a lot of Black patrons at my LCS.

The market is predominantly white, but there are more Black readers, and other types of minorities, than one would assume.


nutflush76 wrote: Now, if the powers that be at Marvel (not a whole lot of Black DC charcters come to my mind for some reason) decided to put a big name rider, say Bendis, on a black character, you might be able to get a good following if you pair him with a big-time artist. But that probably isn't going to happen since the big 2 aren't really in the business of building up their C-list characters.
Hasn't this already happened with Bendis writing Miles Morales in Ultimate Spider-Man? Bendis doesn't have a big-time artist with him on that title, I'm pretty sure the comic sells well.

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Chiclo »

nutflush76 wrote:I think that these questions usually originate from people outside the comics world. Most people who read comics accept the heroes the way that they are. until someone like Andrew Garfield asks "Why can't Spider-man be gay?" Umm because he's not gay. To change the character for the sake of making a change is ridiculous and actually has the reverse effect.
I am reminded of something Dino once told me - that Sony owns more of Spiderman than Marvel does now. If Sony were to decide that Spiderman was going to be gay, could Marvel do anything about it? Would Marvel play ball and make Peter Parker start doubting his own sexuality?

nutflush76 wrote:In reality, I think that the biggest reason that Superman can't be black is that black characters just don't have the same selling power as white characters. There are many good black characters out there. John Stewart, Luke Cage, Black panther, Blade, Storm but none of those have ever really had much traction as solo characters. This is probably because there are far more white kids reading comics than black kids, I'm not getting into reasons why that may be those are just the facts, so it makes sense that they

Now, if the powers that be at Marvel (not a whole lot of Black DC charcters come to my mind for some reason) decided to put a big name rider, say Bendis, on a black character, you might be able to get a good following if you pair him with a big-time artist. But that probably isn't going to happen since the big 2 aren't really in the business of building up their C-list characters.
I would say that Marvel did a little bit of what you are talking about when Bendis started building up Luke Cage. Would anyone have thought of Luke Cage as a likely Avenger 10 years ago? He would not have been on my short list. But now, he has been a central character in the Avengers arc for as long as Bendis has been writing him.

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by nutflush76 »

Savant wrote:
The market is predominantly white, but there are more Black readers, and other types of minorities, than one would assume.
I don't disagree with that at all, but the majority of readers are white, somewhere close to 60% I would say. All of the other minorities combined make up the rest so its not a big enough number for the big 2 to risk alienating the majority over. The publishers know this and they cater to that audience.
Savant wrote: Hasn't this already happened with Bendis writing Miles Morales in Ultimate Spider-Man? Bendis doesn't have a big-time artist with him on that title, I'm pretty sure the comic sells well.
It has. But Ultimate Spider-man isn't Amazing Spider-man. People didn't get so up in arms over that because it was an alternate reality Spider-man. Plus they didn't make Peter Parker black (or black-hispanic) which is more along the lines of my thinking.
Chiclo wrote:I am reminded of something Dino once told me - that Sony owns more of Spiderman than Marvel does now. If Sony were to decide that Spiderman was going to be gay, could Marvel do anything about it? Would Marvel play ball and make Peter Parker start doubting his own sexuality?
That may have been the case when Spider-man and X-men were the only two Marvel movie franchises, but I don't think Marvel would do much of anything to support Sony's movies. They want those rights back.

Besides, movie studios are even less of risk takers than the comic publishers are. I reeeally doubt that any kind of sexuality doubting from Spider-man would be done on their end.

Although, Spider-man would be the perfect character to have those doubts since he is a teenager and that's about the time people who have those doubts start thinking about them.
Chiclo wrote:I would say that Marvel did a little bit of what you are talking about when Bendis started building up Luke Cage. Would anyone have thought of Luke Cage as a likely Avenger 10 years ago? He would not have been on my short list. But now, he has been a central character in the Avengers arc for as long as Bendis has been writing him.
I was thinking something more along the lines of a solo book. Something sort of like what happened with Iron man around the time his movie dropped. Speaking of movies, I don't see any black characters in the pipeline anytime soon. This is despite the relative success of the Blade movies.

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by dave »

You guys are all missing the point.

There is a very good reason that Superman can't be black.

If Kal had been born black, it would have proved that Lara had been unfaithful to Jor El and he would have been angry. His planet was about to blow up and he was still dealing with the fact that everyone thought that Wolverine and Catwoman were better singers than him. Finding out that his wife had been with another man would have been too much. His plans to save his own race by sending his infant son to Earth in a rocket would have been set aside and he would have simply watched his world literally crumble around him.

That would be the end of the story.

Who wants to watch that movie?

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Cyberstrike »

I can relate to Clark Kent because I'm white and his problems are problems that everyday white people go through, but many black people have different problems and see the world through different eyes than he, or I, would.

Clark Kent doesn't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked, being followed in department store, getting shot at by a moroic racist like George Zimmerman, keeping his temper in check, and etc. Clark Kent doesn't have to deal with that any of that crap.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by lorddunlow »

Cyberstrike wrote:I can relate to Clark Kent because I'm white and his problems are problems that everyday white people go through, but many black people have different problems and see the world through different eyes than he, or I, would.

Clark Kent doesn't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked, being followed in department store, getting shot at by a moroic racist like George Zimmerman, keeping his temper in check, and etc. Clark Kent doesn't have to deal with that any of that crap.

You really don't realize that you suffer from a form of racism, do you? I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I'm sure this statement is going to offend you. I just feel I need to point this out to you. I don't think your intention is to be racist, but the statements you keep making are akin to someone who keeps "helping" a handicap person who is completely able to do things on his own. People are people. We are all different. Certain groups share similarities (appearance, culture, religion, food). These groups are a huge Venn diagram with lots of overlap. We need to appreciate and recognize our differences among these group as well as cherish our similarities. That's true harmony.

To say that a black person cannot relate to Clark Kent is racist. To say that I can't relate to Storm is racist. Your intention is not that of the typical racist, but you are making a big deal of a non-issue. I agree there are more white heroes than any other race, but that's because most of the writers and artists were white when comics started planting a foothold in our culture. That will change. Forcing that change is silly.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by nutflush76 »

lorddunlow wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:I can relate to Clark Kent because I'm white and his problems are problems that everyday white people go through, but many black people have different problems and see the world through different eyes than he, or I, would.

Clark Kent doesn't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked, being followed in department store, getting shot at by a moroic racist like George Zimmerman, keeping his temper in check, and etc. Clark Kent doesn't have to deal with that any of that crap.

You really don't realize that you suffer from a form of racism, do you? I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I'm sure this statement is going to offend you. I just feel I need to point this out to you. I don't think your intention is to be racist, but the statements you keep making are akin to someone who keeps "helping" a handicap person who is completely able to do things on his own. People are people. We are all different. Certain groups share similarities (appearance, culture, religion, food). These groups are a huge Venn diagram with lots of overlap. We need to appreciate and recognize our differences among these group as well as cherish our similarities. That's true harmony.

To say that a black person cannot relate to Clark Kent is racist. To say that I can't relate to Storm is racist. Your intention is not that of the typical racist, but you are making a big deal of a non-issue. I agree there are more white heroes than any other race, but that's because most of the writers and artists were white when comics started planting a foothold in our culture. That will change. Forcing that change is silly.
I think this definition takes "racism" a little too far. The point that Cyberstrike was making is that Superman would be a completely different character if he were black. He wouldn't be a white boy who grew up on the farm because he would have been black. Even if he grew up on a farm in Kansas a Clark did, his set of challenges would be different than a white Clark's would be.

You can't simply change the color of a character's skin and say that he is the same character. This would be true even if you changed him from white to asian, or hispanic, or whatever race you chose other than white.

The people who say that its as simple as changing the color of his skin are the ones who really don't understand the cultural differences that exist in this world.

This also speaks to the point of not being able to relate to a black Superman. You can't. Sure there are some universals that everyone shares, but the main points are not relatable.

Does this mean that someone can't appreciate another person's racial and cultural makeup? Not at all. But as for relating to them, I mean really identifying with them is a much taller order than relating to someone in your own situation.

Hell, I would argue that it would be tough for a lot of us to relate to a white character who was German, written by a German writer, lived in Germany, had all of his adventures in Germany, and never came to the United States.

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Heath »

lorddunlow wrote:You really don't realize that you suffer from a form of racism, do you? I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I'm sure this statement is going to offend you. I just feel I need to point this out to you. I don't think your intention is to be racist, but the statements you keep making are akin to someone who keeps "helping" a handicap person who is completely able to do things on his own. People are people. We are all different. Certain groups share similarities (appearance, culture, religion, food). These groups are a huge Venn diagram with lots of overlap. We need to appreciate and recognize our differences among these group as well as cherish our similarities. That's true harmony.

To say that a black person cannot relate to Clark Kent is racist. To say that I can't relate to Storm is racist. Your intention is not that of the typical racist, but you are making a big deal of a non-issue. I agree there are more white heroes than any other race, but that's because most of the writers and artists were white when comics started planting a foothold in our culture. That will change. Forcing that change is silly.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by dave »

nutflush76 wrote:
Does this mean that someone can't appreciate another person's racial and cultural makeup? Not at all. But as for relating to them, I mean really identifying with them is a much taller order than relating to someone in your own situation.
If I understand what you are saying here, then none of us can relate to Superman in any way even though his race has not been changed, right?

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by IMJ »

What's really funny about all of this is that Superman isn't even a member of the white Anglo-saxon race. He's Kryptonian. He might be considered "purple" on that planet. Besides, he might've been raised on a middle American farm, but the character was clearly created by Jewish guys in the context of Jewish mysticism.

I think what anyone with any common sense is arguing here is that Superman can't be black because that's not the history of the character that we care about. The bigger question is "if race shouldn't matter (as it shouldn't), then why would anyone even care to assert any of this in the first place?" Someone could generate some phony argument about what I just said, but it wouldn't change the facts that "if race doesn't matter (as it shouldn't), then there's no reason to change a characters race in the first place".

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by lorddunlow »

IMJ wrote:What's really funny about all of this is that Superman isn't even a member of the white Anglo-saxon race. He's Kryptonian. He might be considered "purple" on that planet. Besides, he might've been raised on a middle American farm, but the character was clearly created by Jewish guys in the context of Jewish mysticism.

I think what anyone with any common sense is arguing here is that Superman can't be black because that's not the history of the character that we care about. The bigger question is "if race shouldn't matter (as it shouldn't), then why would anyone even care to assert any of this in the first place?" Someone could generate some phony argument about what I just said, but it wouldn't change the facts that "if race doesn't matter (as it shouldn't), then there's no reason to change a characters race in the first place".
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Heath »

I rarely watch Leno, but I did last night because he had Dana Carvey on and I loves me some Dana Carvey. After Dana Carvey, he had Cee Lo Green. He mentioned he was into super heroes and as a kid his favorite heroes were The Hulk, Batman, and Flash Gordon. Note: None of them are black. So which one of you is going to tell Cee Lo that he can't have those heroes and he needs to find some heroes his own color? Who's going to tell President Obama that he can't be such a big Spider-Man fan and collect Spider-Man comics because Spider-Man is not black (not even half black)?

Come on, people. This is F'n ridiculous.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Chiclo »

Milestone was a whole DU full of black superheroes from black creators. Milestone was pretty much integrated into the mainstream DCU before the New 52 debacle just to put Static in the Teen Titans. Where are they now?

Edit - the biggest fan of Milestone I know is leonmallet. Can he not be fans of them since they are not englishmen?

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by lorddunlow »

Chiclo wrote:Milestone was a whole DU full of black superheroes from black creators. Milestone was pretty much integrated into the mainstream DCU before the New 52 debacle just to put Static in the Teen Titans. Where are they now?

Edit - the biggest fan of Milestone I know is leonmallet. Can he not be fans of them since they are not englishmen?
I loved Milestone's stuff.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Hotwire »

Superman is a puss.

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by StarBrand »

Hotwire wrote:Superman is a puss.
:lol:
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by lorddunlow »

Hotwire wrote:Superman is a puss.
Correction: every post here should be replaced with this.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by dave »

Heath wrote:So which one of you is going to tell Cee Lo that he can't have those heroes and he needs to find some heroes his own color? Who's going to tell President Obama that he can't be such a big Spider-Man fan and collect Spider-Man comics because Spider-Man is not black (not even half black)?
I'll do it.

Have you got their numbers?

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by lorddunlow »

dave wrote:
Heath wrote:So which one of you is going to tell Cee Lo that he can't have those heroes and he needs to find some heroes his own color? Who's going to tell President Obama that he can't be such a big Spider-Man fan and collect Spider-Man comics because Spider-Man is not black (not even half black)?
I'll do it.

Have you got their numbers?
If you record it and let us listen, I will pay you $1000. Seriously.
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Chiclo »

dave wrote:
Heath wrote:So which one of you is going to tell Cee Lo that he can't have those heroes and he needs to find some heroes his own color? Who's going to tell President Obama that he can't be such a big Spider-Man fan and collect Spider-Man comics because Spider-Man is not black (not even half black)?
I'll do it.

Have you got their numbers?
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Shadowman99 »

Chiclo wrote:
dave wrote:
Heath wrote:So which one of you is going to tell Cee Lo that he can't have those heroes and he needs to find some heroes his own color? Who's going to tell President Obama that he can't be such a big Spider-Man fan and collect Spider-Man comics because Spider-Man is not black (not even half black)?
I'll do it.

Have you got their numbers?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/write-or-call#call" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Call the President
Phone Numbers

Comments: 202-456-1111

Switchboard: 202-456-1414
TTY/TTD

Comments: 202-456-6213

Visitor's Office: 202-456-2121

Needless to say - probably should be pretty careful about your phrasing while calling this number. They don't have much of a sense of humour and sarcasm is lost upon this audience. Your phone calls probably will be monitored for a while after placing this call.
I think having your phonecalls monitored for a while is probably worth a grand :p
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Burrito Boy »

Cyberstrike wrote:I can relate to Clark Kent because I'm white and his problems are problems that everyday white people go through, but many black people have different problems and see the world through different eyes than he, or I, would.

Clark Kent doesn't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked, being followed in department store, getting shot at by a moroic racist like George Zimmerman, keeping his temper in check, and etc. Clark Kent doesn't have to deal with that any of that crap.
No, I can't relate to a black Superman because I've never been stopped by the cops, followed in a department store, or been judged based on my appearance. :roll:

Sorry for the sarcasm but I'm sick of the attitude that being white makes you immune to racism. I've experienced it in several of the places I've lived in over the years. Hell, I even get flack from my mom's side of the family for being half white. facepalm

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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Savant »

Burrito Boy wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:I can relate to Clark Kent because I'm white and his problems are problems that everyday white people go through, but many black people have different problems and see the world through different eyes than he, or I, would.

Clark Kent doesn't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked, being followed in department store, getting shot at by a moroic racist like George Zimmerman, keeping his temper in check, and etc. Clark Kent doesn't have to deal with that any of that crap.
No, I can't relate to a black Superman because I've never been stopped by the cops, followed in a department store, or been judged based on my appearance. :roll:

Sorry for the sarcasm but I'm sick of the attitude that being white makes you immune to racism. I've experienced it in several of the places I've lived in over the years. Hell, I even get flack from my mom's side of the family for being half white. facepalm

People who think being white makes one immune to racism are idiots who live in a bubble.

That said, minority groups (Especially Blacks) do endure more racism than whites. To say otherwise is inane.

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Favorite artist: Jim Starlin
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Re: "Why can't Superman be black?"

Post by Cyberstrike »

Savant wrote:
Burrito Boy wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:I can relate to Clark Kent because I'm white and his problems are problems that everyday white people go through, but many black people have different problems and see the world through different eyes than he, or I, would.

Clark Kent doesn't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked, being followed in department store, getting shot at by a moroic racist like George Zimmerman, keeping his temper in check, and etc. Clark Kent doesn't have to deal with that any of that crap.
No, I can't relate to a black Superman because I've never been stopped by the cops, followed in a department store, or been judged based on my appearance. :roll:

Sorry for the sarcasm but I'm sick of the attitude that being white makes you immune to racism. I've experienced it in several of the places I've lived in over the years. Hell, I even get flack from my mom's side of the family for being half white. facepalm

People who think being white makes one immune to racism are idiots who live in a bubble.

That said, minority groups (Especially Blacks) do endure more racism than whites. To say otherwise is inane.
When I went to school in the 90s my school was white, one would honestly think it was the before intergration it was so white. I can literally count on one hand the number and still have fingers left over of the number of mirority students I saw and/or knew in from grades 5-12 and it was a grand total of 3 kids! I live in a town right next door to Indianapolis, and believe me those kids were as racists as any Neo-Nazi who ever saw on TV.

I was called a "race traitor" for letting a kid from southwest Asia (he was a foregin exchange student whose English was very poor and no one knew which country he was from) sit at my lunch table.

So, yeah. Going up the only racism I ever I had to deal with was from white conseravitive racists jerkoffs that I had to deal with on a daily basis because I had five empty seats at my lunch table and compassion for my fellow man. And I would do it all over again.
Know this: I would rather be hated for being honest for my opinions, than being loved as a liar!


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