Why do we need the Ultimate Universe?

[slym2none]

Don't get me wrong, I know why it happened - Ultimate Spider-Man came out before the first S-M movie to help tie the two together. Then they did the same thing with the X-Men movie. My big question is why do we need the Ultimate Universe?

At this point, it seems that the "Ultimate Universe" gets the better and/or hotter writers and artists. What does this do to the "616" universe? It makes some titles (like long-running and fan-favourites such as Uncanny X-Men) take a back-seat (???!!!???!!!???) to this newer universe that uses the same characters with limited variations in origin but set in more modern times.

This is only a scratch on the surface of my negative feelings toward this ba$tard universe that Joey Q helped perpetuate, but I'll leave it at this for now. I want to hear all of your answers to this question.





-slym (ultimately thinks that Marvel needs to drop one universe or the other)

[TKWill]

I started picking up the Ultimates when it first came out and it was nice to have that fresh feeling for old characters, I didn't have to know a great deal about the continuity since it was all irrelevant since the uni was new. I like to be able to know what is going on without buying ten X-Titles every month. Ulitmately for me the Ultimate Universe sort of became a boiled down version fo the MU and you could keep up with what was happening without spending a small fortune. Same complaint I have had for years, it is just that Marv and DC spread themselves too thin across way too many titles.

[stone384]

Also the ultimate universe wasn't initially intended for us fanboys. The idea was to update Spider-man. He was now a nerd in high school again, but in the modern setting. The idea was that kids would relate to the updated version. The idea ended up being a hit with the fans and the whole thing took off and expanded. The other titles are just variations of the same theme. I don't think the original idea, i.e. new young reader, worked, but it gave a new take on an old idea. I personally don't care. I think they can both survive. I don't think one robs from the other. I don't read any ongoing ulitmate stuff. I get the occasional spidey storyline and the minis. I also have the first 30 xmen, but that is more of an investment. Heck the only 2 early spidey issues I have (4 & 12) are up on ebay right now. I can take it or leave it.

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[slym2none]

My big question is why do we need the Ultimate Universe?


-slym

C'mon, two responses and only one with what may be called an answer... I know there are more of you out there!





-slym

[tictuck]

IMO I don't believe we do need it. Alls they really have to do is do a brief recap at the beginning of each issue to keep people updated as to whats going on or every ten issues or so come out with an origins bible But I'm all about continuity and history. I just wish some heroes would age in real time ala Batman. Superman is semi believable because he's an alien but c'mon shouldn't Batman be like 80 or something. Its just my opinion and it don't mean a hill o beans but its mine damn it and I'm sticking to it

[Chiclo]

Of course we need an Ultimate Universe.

Except instead of the Marvel characters, it should have like Prime, Hardcase, Lady Killer, Siren, Amber Hunt...

Maybe even Juggernaut.

[slym2none]

Of course we need an Ultimate Universe.

Except instead of the Marvel characters, it should have like Prime, Hardcase, Lady Killer, Siren, Amber Hunt...

Maybe even Juggernaut.

I might could get behind that one...





-slym

[400yrs]

I guess there is no real need for the Ultimate universe.

But if there wasn't an Ultimate Universe, I might not be reading any Spidey or X-titles. The original universe books blow. Brubaker is an excellent writer, but I still just can't get into this Shiar crap in Uncanny. Now Ultimate X-men on the other hand, is just good comic stories without a bunch of convoluted crap. So Marvel needs the Ultimate universe for sales if nothing else.

[superman-prime]

id say yes for a few reasons.

i never read much mainstream marvel, because i had no clue where to start and there was too much crossovers to just pick up 2 or 3 books and have a clue.

I picked up the ultimate U from issue 1 because bendis said it would stay small in relitive releases (4 ongoing )
so i could read it all and not go broke as well
thats why i got dc and VALIANT to read and collect, although my DC budget has gotten bigger in the last year ugg

nut i like the ultimate line and it was the first marval titles i picked up (starting with spiderman 1 on, and it got me into a few other marvel books so is it needed no but, its a good entry point.

[slym2none]

I guess there is no real need for the Ultimate universe.

But if there wasn't an Ultimate Universe, I might not be reading any Spidey or X-titles. The original universe books blow. Brubaker is an excellent writer, but I still just can't get into this Shiar crap in Uncanny. Now Ultimate X-men on the other hand, is just good comic stories without a bunch of convoluted crap. So Marvel needs the Ultimate universe for sales if nothing else.

Yeah, but why do WE need it? If there wasn't an Ultimate Universe to take up Marvels' attention (and money, and...), then maybe Millar would be writing killer stories for Uncanny instead of Ultimate!!! I know history is good, but, (god, I might just sound like MotA here) but we don't have to dwell on it. Use the characters to their potential and go from there.

Ultimate universe is NOT neccessary..........



-slym

[superman-prime]

Thats a good point, but i would not be reading any marvel books ether, needed no, but its the only marvel i read and was a intro to a degree, to their books.

[400yrs]

Ultimate universe is NOT neccessary..........



-slym

Marvel made it somewhat necessary by killing off the same characters 27 times and telling retarded stories (and then Bendis does it again in the Ultimate universe with the clone saga friggin idiot). The original Marvel Universe seems like a mess. The Ultimate universe was a fresh start. Necessary, no. Better, yes. And the same writers that do the Ultimate universe write in the normal universe too. There is just more continuity and crap to deal with there.

[Chuck]

The fans don't Need the UU, but marvel doe$

[slym2none]

(and then Bendis does it again in the Ultimate universe with the clone saga friggin idiot)

See? Nothing new there, either.



-slym

[tarheelmarine]

I'm not a buying fan of Marvel products since the 90's, but I don't think you need to own every book to know about the history of a universe. As a reader of Wizard or CBG you can get caught up on the history of a character as they generally give overviews of characters past, etc whenever they run an article on a current story or character (or at least Wizard did that in the 90's). I also think if you don't like something from regular continuity ignore it, and read what you like. I read recently that Catwoman had a kid, and while i don't see that happening to the character, i don't care to much as i don't read the title. I do think it's a shame that Marvel doesn't give their focus to the traditional titles but if people enjoy UU then different flavors for different people. I am sure the regular universe will get it's due again.

[leonmallett]

Slym - your big question may be 'Why do we need the Ultimate Universe', but it is a bit of a false premise. We don't need any comic book universes. We want comic books, not need them. Our survival is not dependent on them. Our quality of life may be better for having products to consume that we enjoy. So taking that as a given, sales alone justify the Ultimate line - it will last as long as people want to read these stories featuring these versions of these characters. No-one is forced to do so.

They have some top creators on the line, but as noted previously the writers are often writing within the mainstream MU as well. The artists aren't on Ultimate exclusivity deals - Immomen was doing NEXTWave before being lined up for USM. One of the strongest creative teams Marvel has in my humble view is Ellis/Larocca - on a book outside of both the mainstream and Ultimate Marvel Universes. Just who would you demand to be writing or drawing a regular Marvel Universe book from the Ultimate creative stable who isn't doing so already, other than Hitch or Neary? Give it a bit of thought after checking who is writing or drawing what lately in the Ultimate universe. To say the cream is kept for the Ultimate universe is a tired fallacy. As is the thought that reading one precludes reading the other. I read Ultimates and I also read New Avengers and Mighty Avengers. Guess which I think is the strongest book based on writing, plotting, character development and art? I read Ultimate X-Men and I also read X-Men, Uncanny X-Men and New X-Men (as well as X-Factor). In this case I generally feel Ultimate X-Men to be more accessible and therefore better than the mainstream plethora of X titles (except for X Factor, which is great).

So do we need the Ultimate universe? No moreso than needing the mainstream Marvel universe, except arguably for accessibility (in favour of the Ultimate line). This is not so much from history or continuity, but rather which X book has had the most recognisable team line-up in the last few years for a fledgling comic book reader? Ultimate X-Men. Why? Because of the movies.

Just my two pence.

[slym2none]

Something funny about the movie tie-in bit - the Ultimate comics and the movies don't have much in common. Spider-Man, and even Jean Grey are teenagers in the UU. In the movies they are older. Colossus isn't gay in the movies (yet, anyways.) So, they aren't really needed.

And what is this I hear about "needing to know every story in the character's history to understand them?" That's crap, and talented writers prove this every day. Batman and Superman readers don't have to know every one of their back-stories, and they are MUCH older than any of the X-Men. Now, when Chris Claremont was writing the X-Men, I would agree, because his stories were one large tie-in to a bigger picture, but it hasn't been that way FOR YEARS. Please, stop using that excuse.



-slym ( )

[TKWill]

Colossus isn't gay in the movies (yet, anyways.)

-slym ( )

Colossus is gay?! I have not been paying any attention to the X-Men.

[slym2none]

Colossus isn't gay in the movies (yet, anyways.)

-slym ( )

Colossus is gay?! I have not been paying any attention to the X-Men.

He is in the Ulticrap universe, or so I've heard. I don't read it myself...





-slym

[Cyberstrike]

I think that The Ultimate Univsere is designed for a cheap new fan to get into.

I thought that the MC-2 Universe (Spider-Girl, J2, A-Next, Wild Thing, Fanastic 5, Dark Devil, and The Buzz) was better than the Ultimate Universe.

[MedicAR]

Cool thread!

I never saw the Ultimate Universe as a movie tie in. I always saw it as Marvel's way of trying to attract new and younger readers. Let's face it, if the industry doesn't get new readers, it won't be around long.

Ultimate Spidey was great for that. In hindsight, it seemed close to the time the movie was coming out, but there was really a one and a half to two year lag time between when the book was introduced and the movie came out.

I think Marvel was really on to something. They didn't try to re-write (retcon) the history of the Marvel U, they just started over. No baggage, no convoluted storylines, no Gwen Stacy getting her freak on with Norman Osborne. It freed the writers to do as they will and have some fun while keeping us "old fan boys" happy by not screwing with the Marvel U we know and love. It was a clean and easy way to start in comics with easily recognizable characters.

I guess I was mistaken, but I was under the impression that the Ultimate U was aimed at a younger audience. It certainly seemed that way with Spidey and then with the X-Men. But with the introduction of the Ultimates, that idea went out the window. It's not Tanintino, but it's not "Saved by the Bell" either. Maybe it is a book for adolescents, I'm not a good judge of that kind of stuff, though.

All in all, I think the Ultimate U is a good idea, and that we (in the larger sense of the hobby, not just us-the fans) do need it. I'd like to see it "cleaned up" just a little to make it more kid friendly and to attract more young readers, because that's what the hobby/industry really needs....a next generation.

[Chiclo]

I think that The Ultimate Univsere is designed for a cheap new fan to get into.

I thought that the MC-2 Universe (Spider-Girl, J2, A-Next, Wild Thing, Fanastic 5, Dark Devil, and The Buzz) was better than the Ultimate Universe.

2099 was better, and so was Ultraverse (ironically, the pre-Marvel Ultraverse. Post-Marvel Ultraverse sucked sour frog *SQUEE*).

Now that we have mentioned MC-2, think Knightt will start collecting that? It's not exactly dead, they had an A-Next mini-series not too long ago.

[leonmallett]

I think that The Ultimate Univsere is designed for a cheap new fan to get into.

I thought that the MC-2 Universe (Spider-Girl, J2, A-Next, Wild Thing, Fanastic 5, Dark Devil, and The Buzz) was better than the Ultimate Universe.

Nice generalisation. I read both mainstream Marvel universe and Ultimate universe, and have been reading comics for 27 years, so object to being called cheap.

MC 2 is great. I have almost completed my runs on this.

[leonmallett]

Something funny about the movie tie-in bit - the Ultimate comics and the movies don't have much in common. Spider-Man, and even Jean Grey are teenagers in the UU. In the movies they are older. Colossus isn't gay in the movies (yet, anyways.) So, they aren't really needed.

And what is this I hear about "needing to know every story in the character's history to understand them?" That's crap, and talented writers prove this every day. Batman and Superman readers don't have to know every one of their back-stories, and they are MUCH older than any of the X-Men. Now, when Chris Claremont was writing the X-Men, I would agree, because his stories were one large tie-in to a bigger picture, but it hasn't been that way FOR YEARS. Please, stop using that excuse.



-slym ( )

I didn't say anything like that - only you seem to have. By accessible I meant recognisable charaters (eg Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Collosus, Kitty et al being on one team rather than a bumch of folks that I barely recognise).

You didn't respond to my point about need versus want (or in your case don't want...). But just because you don't care for it it is crap? Is the art crap? The writing crap? Are the characters crap? Does the line being in existance stop you getting mainstream Marvel universe books? I think not.

[MedicAR]

I think the point of the movies/accessibility doesn't have to be a strict interpretation between the two, only one that offers setting and maybe even dialogue that people brought up in this generation can relate to or feel normal to them. There are certainly trades of the original work out there, but if anybody thinks the average as 10-17 year old would be interested in reading the original first 10 Avenger stories over the Ultimates would be giving them too much credit.

Yeah...way too much credit. I like those stories (the SA), but I have a nostalgic link to them. They were cool to me, because I liked the current stories and wanted to see how it all started.

It's like asking an audience who want Batman Begins to enjoy Adams West. Certainly they could enjoy both, but one can't be the other.

Outstanding comparison!

Don't get me wrong I don't care at all for the Ultimate U. - but it doesn't shock me that a new fan - who perhaps never read comics before - finds it more enjoyable to read Ultimates than picking up a TPB of the Original Avengers run. Has anyone tried to read some of the Silver Age titles? It's difficult at times.

I still like the SA, particularly Marvel. DC.....not so much. But again, I was young when I read them the first time and feel a connection to them. They certainly aren't truly great works of literature, but they're fun in their own way. You want "difficult at times" try to read some Golden Age. I'll try to find a link to a story I have in mind, it's really messed up.

There is something to be said about heroes being in a world you recognize (when it comes to Marvel) - it could be said that was it's draw to readers in the 60's and 70's. The NYC that Spidey lived in during the 60's and 70's would mean *SQUEE* to the reader of today, new readers would want Spidey in their NYC, in the world they know now, beginning now. I think the question of what if Spidey started in this millenium (or other heroes) is an intriguing one - I just don't care for the actual product myself (because I find Bendis to be less that impressive), but the idea certainly has some merit.

Yeah, it all comes back to making the stories relative and interesting to your audience. I think UU is okay at doing that, but not great. They could do so much better.

I think we can look at this from a Valiant point of view. When I was younger, I was reading Valiant, Image, the New X-Men (Lee & Claremont), etc,etc - part of the draw and excitement was to be at ground zero - I didn't give a *SQUEE* about - and honestly had a negative view on older books - they were outdated, bland, lacked edge etc, etc - it wasn't until I became an adult that I ever had an interest in back issues that predated my own birth.

Ain't it great?

I started with Spectacular Spider-Man #4 (the first series) and thought everything before that sucked. Then I got into Avengers and every issue I picked up (I got them at a convenience store) seemed to have references to something before it. I always felt like I was left out. It was frustrating until I learned of the back issue market. Once I learned about that and started picking up older and older issues, I just got more and more addicted.

It seems to me that Marvel has wanted to do a wipe for a long time - the X-men 198, Heroes Reborn, etc but have too many potential properties in play at other media to take a risk at the moment (or perhaps other reasons as well). I think creators want to do *SQUEE* with characters, and what Ultimate U. does most of all is give Marvel that extra playground to offer creators (in a market that is very competitive with the rise of exclusive contracts) to go wild on the icons without tampering the integrity with the original properties. We can argue that Marvel lacks balls with their original line, is plain lazy, or whatever, but I look at that Ultimate U. as Marvel's version of Infinite Crisis without taking any risk - it's an update, it a streamlining of the universe, it might even be necessary - I just wish they had enough faith in readers to do it in the real world (616).

I can see your point here, but I think I would have wanted to do it the way they did too. Less risk. Keep in mind Marvel has been financially (not just creatively) bankrupt before. The other media don't seem to hold too much influence on the books, though. The Daredevil movie had a fair resemblance to the comic, but not overly so. The Hulk was a movie, that's all I've got to say about that. The Spidey movies hold the flavor of the original material, but not the details. Same with the Batman and Superman movies for whatever that might be worth. The games are their own world from what I've seen, which is very little. I don't think that they maintain the status quo for the sake of other media, but I could be wrong.