Harbinger: Renegade #5 Discussion

[Sunlight on Snow]

Well I seem to be in the minority on this, but here goes. This issue was a ham-fisted trainwreck of poor storytelling all around. Despite the 'graphic' nature of all the violence & brutality, I was left feeling absolutely nothing for any of the characters or the scenario. The only residual emotional impact this had on me was disappointment that VEI let something like this go out the door, and anger at the absolute mishandling the Gen Zero characters have suffered since Dysart left. Seriously, no one else could figure out how to write these guys well? [even FVL, whose work I love!] And now they've just killed most of them off in a big gimmicky marketing-driven manouvre? That is severely disappointing.

I thought that the core concept of sending the HARD Corps into Rook to deal with Gen Zero was a great plot point to build a story around, but then every aspect of the delivery of this issue by the creative/editorial/marketing team [other than colours & lettering] completely butchered it. The real massacre that happened here was to the high standards of storytelling we have generally come to expect from VEI.

If anyone is still reading this - sorry to be so harsh, I'm sure I just sound like a grumpy curmudgeon but I am generally very objective & measured in my opinions - especially when voicing them publicly.

I'd say more, but since most of the responses have been largely supportive of this issue, I doubt anyone wants to hear much more from me

What you're saying isn't wrong but how much storytelling did you expect from a story simply titled Massacre? This was exactly the type of story Valiant had been advertising for a long time. Perhaps not the type of major character - a *squee* massacre nonetheless! It can't be Rafer's fault nobody else could ever write any sense into these characters. He just decided to kill them off now and luckily someone told him to keep Animalia alive.

Anyhow, like I said you have a point. There isn't much storytelling and much character in this story. Rafer's also managed to turn an innocent 12-year old girl into the most bad-*SQUEE* Renegade as of now - squeezing one to death, and cutting the throat of another. Shocking! One can't say he handled all the characters perfectly well on the 20 pages.

I still like it though. They promised us a massacre and they delivered a massacre. I didn't expect too much meaningful
dialogue from this one.

[TheeBaldMoose]

I think there are plans for Animalia in the future, and that could be the reason this went down. She's the one that needs to grow, it'll be interesting to see what she has learned about this latest event.

I can say this, Sunlight on Snow, you are absolutely wrong about someone telling Rafer to not kill Animalia, as she is his favorite Gen Zero character. As told by Rafer during WhoDooTV's interview with him, during the entire writing process, and all of the rough drafts submitted, there were multiple characters killed off, but never once did he kill off Animalia. She is a favorite by many people and writers, so I would expect the Animalia's request to be able to grow up is crucial and stuck with many people. I think VEI see's this, Rafer sees this as I think it was FVL's idea that she become something much bigger.

[grendeljd]

Well I seem to be in the minority on this, but here goes. This issue was a ham-fisted trainwreck of poor storytelling all around. Despite the 'graphic' nature of all the violence & brutality, I was left feeling absolutely nothing for any of the characters or the scenario. The only residual emotional impact this had on me was disappointment that VEI let something like this go out the door, and anger at the absolute mishandling the Gen Zero characters have suffered since Dysart left. Seriously, no one else could figure out how to write these guys well? [even FVL, whose work I love!] And now they've just killed most of them off in a big gimmicky marketing-driven manouvre? That is severely disappointing.

I thought that the core concept of sending the HARD Corps into Rook to deal with Gen Zero was a great plot point to build a story around, but then every aspect of the delivery of this issue by the creative/editorial/marketing team [other than colours & lettering] completely butchered it. The real massacre that happened here was to the high standards of storytelling we have generally come to expect from VEI.

If anyone is still reading this - sorry to be so harsh, I'm sure I just sound like a grumpy curmudgeon but I am generally very objective & measured in my opinions - especially when voicing them publicly.

I'd say more, but since most of the responses have been largely supportive of this issue, I doubt anyone wants to hear much more from me

What you're saying isn't wrong but how much storytelling did you expect from a story simply titled Massacre? This was exactly the type of story Valiant had been advertising for a long time. Perhaps not the type of major character - a *squee* massacre nonetheless! It can't be Rafer's fault nobody else could ever write any sense into these characters. He just decided to kill them off now and luckily someone told him to keep Animalia alive.

Anyhow, like I said you have a point. There isn't much storytelling and much character in this story. Rafer's also managed to turn an innocent 12-year old girl into the most bad-*SQUEE* Renegade as of now - squeezing one to death, and cutting the throat of another. Shocking! One can't say he handled all the characters perfectly well on the 20 pages.

I still like it though. They promised us a massacre and they delivered a massacre. I didn't expect too much meaningful
dialogue from this one.

It is definitely not Rafer's fault if previous writers made bad decisions with the characters he is writing. But I think that the same plot in the hands of a better writer [and sorry to say, a better artist] would have come off much differently. I don't think that a massacre is a simple concept to handle that only needs to be delivered with blunt tools. Its not a matter of having meaningful dialogue so much as having dialogue that suits the situation & the characters involved. Subtle differences in dialogue can make immense differences in the emotional impact of a story.

And its the artist's responsibility to deliver the emotional elements visually - from deciding on the right compositions & camera angles to the equally important nuances of body language & facial expressions. I have to say that this series has yet to see Darick Robertson at his best, and this issue especially needed that. The guy is a talented professional & has done tremendous work in his career, I'm just not seeing it here.

To me its actually pretty hammy to do a character death-driven story arc. For that to be the ultimate selling point of the story is just grabbing for low hanging fruit. It strips the story of any and all lasting or meaningful impact [even when the company motto is 'dead is dead']. Its the kind of sales gimmick that the big 2 have done to corporate death. I'm saddened to see Valiant sink to that level to push for sales.

I thought the first time they did this kind of thing, in Harbinger Volume 1, it was done right for what it was. The marketing maybe ran away with that one a little at the time too, but not to an extreme, and in-story it was still tragic & still means something to me today. I still feel that loss.

This stuff just turns me off the series, and its my favourite Valiant title.

[BugsySig]

My issues with this issue:

1) The victim(s) here were not major or iconic IMO. That's not to say I disliked them. But it comes off as a PR stunt to sell more comics (which is VEI's right and goal), that doesn't deliver on the goods (and thus may end up having a detrimental effect in the future).

2) Comicbook deaths at VALIANT, where dead is dead, should happen to characters who have basically reached the end of their usefulness and potential story-wise. While this can always be argued, I felt that was the case with Charlene. Conversely, as in this case and the case of Tohru in VH1, I don't believe the victim(s) to have been finished with their story possibilities.

3) I don't think this jives with the most recent portrayals of Palmer. It's not so off that I can't see it, but seems to be a regression from where he had evolved to through HW, Bloodshot & HARD Corps and Unity. Perhaps whatever has been "killing him" from his implant is also affecting his personality?

What ever happened to those Gen Zero kids who escaped the hotel back in HW (Hive and Traveller)? They had great potential as future antagonists. It never made sense that they didn't meet back up with the rest of the team after they freed themselves. I hope we see them again.

[hawkeyeps]

I totally agree with Shakes and Football.

This book gets 2/5 zip tie-taimos.

[TheeBaldMoose]

Only because this is funny...

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[TheeBaldMoose]

I am curious as to why people automatically jump on this bandwagon regarding Palmer and automatically think he was a bad guy or that he changed somehow. He is exactly the same guy he was before, the only difference is you see only the action/intense side.

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[nonplayer]

Only because this is funny...

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This for the win . I plan to post the squee outta that picture.

[BugsySig]

I totally agree with Shakes and Football.

This book gets 2/5 zip tie-taimos.

Lol. Long time no speak, Hawk.

[Sunlight on Snow]

I think there are plans for Animalia in the future, and that could be the reason this went down. She's the one that needs to grow, it'll be interesting to see what she has learned about this latest event.

I can say this, Sunlight on Snow, you are absolutely wrong about someone telling Rafer to not kill Animalia, as she is his favorite Gen Zero character. As told by Rafer during WhoDooTV's interview with him, during the entire writing process, and all of the rough drafts submitted, there were multiple characters killed off, but never once did he kill off Animalia. She is a favorite by many people and writers, so I would expect the Animalia's request to be able to grow up is crucial and stuck with many people. I think VEI see's this, Rafer sees this as I think it was FVL's idea that she become something much bigger.

Lol, I didn't mean to be right on this one.

[Dr. Solar]

Some thoughts I've had.

1) Generation Zero are terrorists. Their first action in public was to take over the Bellagio with military force. Their last action was to take over a city with military force. They may be the heroes of their own story, but they are not heroes in the overall picture.

2) The last time HARD Corps went up against these terrorists, there were casualties on both sides. We've got no reason to see a soft side to Gunslinger.

3) Charlie states in the briefing that Generation Zero has 168 combined kills, including 11 HARD Corps soldiers. That's more than we've seen on the page, which means that either (a) there's more history here than we've seen, or (b) Gunslinger is lying.

[agent_graves]

THANKFUL!!!!!

[jeremycoe]

THANKFUL!!!!!

Best panel in the book!

[agent_graves]

THANKFUL!!!!!



Best panel in the book!

By FAR!!!

[apainter]

I have to agree with Grendel. Dysart did several deaths in HW and DoaR that were both graphic and emotionally impactful. Roberts is no Dysart. This issue had action, it had excitement, but for me, it was junk food. Empty calories.

Darick Robertson's art bothered me in the first arc. So much over acting. Characters displayed happiness with bizarre Joker-style rictus grins. There wasn't so much smiling this particular issue, but I still don't think Roberts does facial expressions well. They tend to be a bit too cartoony and exaggerated, and IMO this story called for gritty and realistic.

I have to repeat something brought up in the VCR podcast -- how old is Animalia? The description box says 12, but she looks like half that, particularly in the intro walking next to Cronus. Also, none of the characters have aged at all. Cronus is still 20, Telic is still 15, just like when they were introduced 4 years ago! OK, I understand comic book sliding timelines, but going by all they've been through -- Harbinger Wars, Armor Hunters, the Gen 0 series -- you mean to tell me not a single year has passed?

Some general nits to pick: Flatline is back with HARD Corps, despite her betrayal in letting Bloodshot escape at the end of the original Bloodshot series. (I guess Omen decided what she did under PRS didn't matter.) Still no sign of Traveller, Hive, Astral (all 3 MIA since HW), Titan, or Ramsey (last two missing since Armor Hunters.)

When Telic was fighting Palmer, Palmer asked Lifeline for the Telic Sequence. Lifeline responded that she couldn't drop shields until he's clear. So shields were still on, but Telic could still snap Palmer's arm? (In the following sequence of panels, Palmer got the snot beat out of him, so I assume shields were down at that point, but the arm breaking scene was right before he even asked Lifeline.) Bravo for VCR for pointing out what I missed: Palmer slugged Cronus with his broken arm!

I was thrown off a bit by Wyrm. There was a Wyrm in the War Monger arc of Unity. I thought they were bringing that weird guy back. But nope, different character.

[TheeBaldMoose]

Some thoughts I've had.

1) Generation Zero are terrorists. Their first action in public was to take over the Bellagio with military force. Their last action was to take over a city with military force. They may be the heroes of their own story, but they are not heroes in the overall picture.

2) The last time HARD Corps went up against these terrorists, there were casualties on both sides. We've got no reason to see a soft side to Gunslinger.

3) Charlie states in the briefing that Generation Zero has 168 combined kills, including 11 HARD Corps soldiers. That's more than we've seen on the page, which means that either (a) there's more history here than we've seen, or (b) Gunslinger is lying.

Very interesting take. Maybe those 168 kills, Gunslinger holds Gen Zero team accountable for all the civilian casualties instead of taking part of the blame?

You could flip the script on that as well.

1) HARD Corps are military extremists hell bent on either the recapture of PRS/Omen property, or the killing of Gen Zero.

2) Gen Zero is just a bunch of children/teens trying to make their way in a world that hates them. As stated by Cronos, they just wanted to be left alone. Rook was used because "the outside world didn't give a rat's arse about them. It was all for protection

3) OK, I only have two points, as I can't get to my comic right now..

[kinggirlfriend]

I think the 168 kills includes the missions they went on under PRS before they broke out. Like when they took down all those people who became zombies or whatever.

As much as I ended up liking this issue I do agree with you guys that say it felt cheap and gimmicky. It feels like a comicbooky/cartoon version of Harbinger. It's missing something finer that separated the early Valiant issues from the rest of the comic book world.

It does feel like a real waste of the Gen Zero characters. It feels similar to the recent Kozul death. And now with Granite gone I guess we'll never see any more of their budding relationship. We never even got a reaction from her when he died. Lots of things that were set up seem like a complete waste of time now. But I did like Monica killing Granite and Vagabond. Gamete just seems like so much of a waste. I really want someone to pick Dysart's brain about what his original plans for her was.

The plot wasn't bad, but the execution (to steal an earlier pun) leaves a lot to be desired. There should have been more build up. The whole thing felt very sudden and inorganic.

I agree with those that said Cronos was a major character.

But it did get me interested in Harbinger again. The first four issues was a lot of wheel spinning, IMO. This was a least something.

Where was Cloud in all this? I haven't read the 2nd Gen Zero arc yet (trade waiting).

[hawkeyeps]

Generation Zero was the replacement for HARD Corps, this is why Palmer was retired. I assume Shakespeare, Hammerhead and Maniac were also retired. Aside from taking over the Bellagio, Gen Zero also slaughtered the initial response team. Remember the theater piled with the bodies of dead soldiers and Cronus with the bloody hand print on his uniform?

Palmer was reticent to come out of retirement but I can see his motivation given the gravity of the situation and more importantly knowing his former comrades in arms were also involved, he was primarily motivated by protecting his squad just as Cronus' primary motivation was the protection of his squad.

At the end of Harbinger Wars Palmer was like "Thank god that's over, I'm done with this *SQUEE*." and good old Maniac was like "Well that was fun, nice seeing you again sir"

Palmer is drawn back in because they form a new squad and assign Maniac to lead it, Gunslinger sees these new recruits who are essentially ordinary drafted civilians with no training and knows that Maniac leading this squad would lead to instant death on their first mission. Gunslinger approaches Maniac gently and says something along the lines of "how about I take this one buddy", he does so out of compassion for Maniac and the new recruits who once again were not soldiers, Superstar was the only one with a significant military background.

Gunslinger has a deep resentment for PRS and was aware of their attempt to frame Bloodshot for the murder of Genius, this was revealed to him by Flatline. At the end of that story the consensus among the squad was that they would keep this knowledge to themselves as they were still compromised by the bombs in their heads but they were well aware of PRS and just waiting for the right time to make their move. It was also revealed at the end of that story that PRS was now recruiting terrorists and criminals for HARD Corps duty, it could be speculated that this was how Gravedog was recruited and given to Gunslinger to train, I would also speculate that PRS did not reveal his background to Gunslinger.

PRS viewed Gunslinger as a problem and they needed a replacement squad leader and this was their intent with Gravedog until he went AWOL and joined up with Harada.

So when this story begins Gunslinger still has his squad and motivation to protect them but the whole team is also aware that their corporate masters are no good.

The point Gunslinger's characterization really seems off to me is when he smirks at the Trump tweet and asks for 12 more enhanced and blah blah blah to go after Solomon. Maybe they would give him a new squad but he would never be the one to ask for it, that just makes no sense what so ever particularly if you consider his recent experience with Gravedog.

I loathed this issue and this is just one point of many that made it completely fall apart for me, I could go on for forever.

The art was bad, the writing was bad, and these characters are being ruined.

[hawkeyeps]

I think the 168 kills includes the missions they went on under PRS before they broke out. Like when they took down all those people who became zombies or whatever.

As much as I ended up liking this issue I do agree with you guys that say it felt cheap and gimmicky. It feels like a comicbooky/cartoon version of Harbinger. It's missing something finer that separated the early Valiant issues from the rest of the comic book world.

It does feel like a real waste of the Gen Zero characters. It feels similar to the recent Kozul death. And now with Granite gone I guess we'll never see any more of their budding relationship. We never even got a reaction from her when he died. Lots of things that were set up seem like a complete waste of time now. But I did like Monica killing Granite and Vagabond. Gamete just seems like so much of a waste. I really want someone to pick Dysart's brain about what his original plans for her was.

The plot wasn't bad, but the execution (to steal an earlier pun) leaves a lot to be desired. There should have been more build up. The whole thing felt very sudden and inorganic.

I agree with those that said Cronos was a major character.

But it did get me interested in Harbinger again. The first four issues was a lot of wheel spinning, IMO. This was a least something.

Where was Cloud in all this? I haven't read the 2nd Gen Zero arc yet (trade waiting).

Dysart's next Generation Zero story would have been the team searching for their lost members, Cronus was always about protecting his squad above all else he had very little regard for whatever else was going on in the world.

The whole idea that the team would forget about their friends and instead set up a help chat room and subsequently take over Rook is ridiculous and goes directly against the character that Cronus was.

I have a crazy theory that can cover that- Cloud was subconsciously effecting the minds of her team mates. She was the one that always wanted to help everyone and had the traumatic experience during Armor Hunters which may have well snapped her already damaged mind and amped up her powers. Cloud intentionally or not altered the character and perceptions of her team mates and that ultimately led to their deaths. Cronus would never give a crap about Kiesha but Cloud would, it was Cloud that was running that whole thing, remember when her giant head popped up in Kieasha's room?

[kinggirlfriend]

I have a crazy theory that can cover that- Cloud was subconsciously effecting the minds of her team mates. She was the one that always wanted to help everyone and had the traumatic experience during Armor Hunters which may have well snapped her already damaged mind and amped up her powers. Cloud intentionally or not altered the character and perceptions of her team mates and that ultimately led to their deaths. Cronus would never give a crap about Kiesha but Cloud would, it was Cloud that was running that whole thing, remember when her giant head popped up in Kieasha's room?

I like that. Makes a lot of sense of things that don't otherwise make sense.

[hawkeyeps]

I also didn't care for how the death of Granite played out, the zip tie idea just bugged the hell out of me as Genius and Softy touched on in the VCR episode.

Here is how I would have like to see that play out-

The egg goes off and Granite heading Gunslinger's advice mercilessly swoops in and cracks Anamalia with the butt of her gun, not killing her but messing her up really badly.

Granite takes her to the ground and says to Lifeline "Psiot Anamalia neutralized but you better get medical and containment here ASAP or she might not make it"

Then the egg effect wares off and Anamalia is still out but all of a sudden Samurai Sue, Puppy Pirate, Skeleton Pelican and Humble Bumble materialize!

Samurai Sue- "You have harmed the maker, you shall taste my steel" Sue flips around like Yoda and takes her head off while the rest scurry the injured Anamalia off to safety.

And scene

[Bl00dsh0t]

This is the first issue of the arc - I have to wonder if we'll see more deaths aside from this book? Perhaps after the interlude next month? I mean, the arc is titled Massacre, not just Harbinger Renegade #5 'Massacre'...

[kjjohanson]

It's interesting that it's the hardcore (no pun intended) Christian that takes out the fetus.

So how's the value of those Harbinger Wars 1:50s doing?

[jmatt]

So many viewpoints I agree with here I don't know where to begin.

1) When I said I don't mind VEI being bold enough to kill off characters, that was meant in an abstract sense and I still believe it. That said, I agree that Cronus and Telic still had a lot of story left in them, and that the treatment the got in their own book, while enjoyable, wasn't quite what I was hoping for the future of Gen 0.

2) Kids who 'just want to be left alone' don't undertake the events of the Gen 0 of their own volition. But that would be incredibly boring.

A more fitting run up to this would have been ten issues of them on the run with Omen / PRS harassing and attacking them at every turn, culminating in this issue. It's been too long since HW for the animosity levels to be right for the reader. I don't recall those events nearly as well as some of you seem to, some (re)build-up for the final battle would have been welcome. This just came out of nowhere to me.

3) Not a fan of Robertson's art.

4) I thought the same thing. 168 kills?!

5) With the original introduction of Gamete, I thought he/she would be some great future character, able to psychically ward off harm as violent as it was with the destruction of Mexico City. Then she was turned into a punchline. And now gone.

I would rather have seen her born, biologically accelerated to maturity by Silk or someone, and then take the stage as a player.

6) Cronus is a 'major-enough' character for the billing. If Aric is an A+, Cronus was a solid B working his way up, if he only had the time.

[hawkeyeps]

5) Word