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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:43:46 pm 
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
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Christian was a great character but I feel he was not handled correctly once he was no longer under Dysart. The biggest shame is lost the potential of those characters that were so finely crafted.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:49:57 pm 
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
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On the Corps' side, I specially feel for Granite, because she and Kozol (also dead...) had a true developing relation that felt real and really "grey".

On the Gen 0 side, I only had come to like these characters, literally one hour before reading Massacre, that's when I read FVL'S entire run. I never "liked" them, I guess (exception of course, ex-Renegade Monica which is one of the best Valiant characters around), but I could easily see the potential for growth. Telic and Cloud were starting to become characters that I would care. And then they died an hour later. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:59:27 pm 
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
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mateo107 wrote:
this read more like Generation Zero #10 than an issue of Harbinger, I would've liked to have seen the Renegades make an appearance.


Yeah, that's a little puzzling. What makes this a Renegade issue? Massacre could have simply encompassed an issue of Gen 0 (here) and the next issue of Renegade.

But I've been thinking some more about this. I like that VEI is willing to put us on notice that few characters are safe. Since they're obviously not gonna bump off a pillar, like Aric or Archer or Pete, Cronus is about the right level character to do this with (as is Palmer).

Kris is the next level up -- more key than Cronus but less key than Pete.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:31:12 pm 
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
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I figured it was a total red herring, especially considering the linewide variant cover, but "major" could have been a nod to a title, rather than a description of importance.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:42:19 pm 
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi
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jmatt wrote:
mateo107 wrote:
this read more like Generation Zero #10 than an issue of Harbinger, I would've liked to have seen the Renegades make an appearance.


Yeah, that's a little puzzling. What makes this a Renegade issue? Massacre could have simply encompassed an issue of Gen 0 (here) and the next issue of Renegade.

But I've been thinking some more about this. I like that VEI is willing to put us on notice that few characters are safe. Since they're obviously not gonna bump off a pillar, like Aric or Archer or Pete, Cronus is about the right level character to do this with (as is Palmer).

Kris is the next level up -- more key than Cronus but less key than Pete.


Respectfully, if we take one thing from this debacle, it's that the "Fall of" books should be considered canon until we have any evidence otherwise. Kris will likely die several decades from now.

I'm not sure I understand why Valiant thought they'd need to make the point that any character can die. They've had shocking deaths of major characters before. I think that they wanted to boost slipping sales on this title as well as cleaning up the Gen ZERO problem.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:41:23 pm 
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
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Thegreatmagnet wrote:
Respectfully, if we take one thing from this debacle, it's that the "Fall of" books should be considered canon until we have any evidence otherwise. Kris will likely die several decades from now.


I almost made mention of that. Of course, someday most of the characters will pass on, even Aric and Ninjak. But seeing a death in an issue that takes place in the distant future is different than seeing one that takes place in the present.

The immediacy of the death in the present is obviously more jarring than knowing that Bloodshot will die in a hundred years.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:08:03 am 
Harbinger rank: Nensei
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Pulse
Gamma
Momo
Flamingo
Everyone in the first Harbinger Wars
Mexico City
Kozul

I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that surprised me.

Valiant's plan worked on me this time. I don't normally buy single issues but there was no way I could wait for the trade and not have it all spoil't. So I ran to the comic store after work on Tuesday. I'm glad I did.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:18:00 am 
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi
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My review is back up, if anyone didn't get the chance and is looking for some light after-dinner reading...

http://www.comicsthegathering.com/revie ... renegade-5

I really tried to go non-spoiler re: death, but they were being extra protective about the big secret(s).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:17:24 am 
Cruisin' in Darpan's Winnebago
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Elveen wrote:
Dr. Solar wrote:
I think the diversity of opinions about this book are great!

I think the diversity of opinions about how to spell Cronus are less great.


Just call him by his real name, it's easier.


Cristian? :P


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:35:01 am 
Cruisin' in Darpan's Winnebago
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I wonder what kind of *SQUEE* the killing of the entire Gen Zero crew would have caused?

Some people already seem to have a major problem with the killing of Cronus who may or may not be a major. If Valiant really wanted to make a point of "nobody being safe" they should have killed all of Gen Zero including Animalia.... but they let her get (fly) away as if nothing's happened.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:35:51 am 
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
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hawkeyeps wrote:
Why didn't Telic just tackle Cronus once she knew the bullet was on the way?

Wouldn't that be more in line with her power set? Perception then action? Not just "Hey Cronus look out..."

You would think if anybody could see a sniper's shot coming and react appropriately it would be Telic, that would be like an easy one for her.

I think that was part of the Telic maneuver (or whatever the term was) that Palmer called out when she came on the scene. As Telic realized too late, Palmer set himself up to be a decoy that she was completely focusing her attention/abilities on, so much so that she was oblivious to the sniper. Only after she dropped Palmer and turned her attentions elsewhere was she able to pick up on the threat to the blonde guy whose name we got wrong, but too late. She's got enhanced perception, but she's not omniscient and she can't outrun a bullet.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:48:10 am 
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
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Thegreatmagnet wrote:
Respectfully, if we take one thing from this debacle, it's that the "Fall of" books should be considered canon until we have any evidence otherwise. Kris will likely die several decades from now.

This. And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the only member of Gen Zero we saw during BoD was Katherine Zygos riding on Quartz in BoD #1.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:34:37 am 
Cruisin' in Darpan's Winnebago
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Keith wrote:
Thegreatmagnet wrote:
Respectfully, if we take one thing from this debacle, it's that the "Fall of" books should be considered canon until we have any evidence otherwise. Kris will likely die several decades from now.

This. And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the only member of Gen Zero we saw during BoD was Katherine Zygos riding on Quartz in BoD #1.

That's most likely her, yes. :thumb:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:28:43 am 
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
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grendeljd wrote:
I also want to say that I disagree with those who feel the Gen Zero characters are second/third tier characters and that its okay that they've been killed off instead of any "major" characters. Everyone is entitled to their opinions & I'm not personally attacking anyone who feels that way, I simply disagree with that opinion.

These characters all had immense potential to be a fresh group of awesome new characters in the modern Valiant universe. Its not tragic that they've mostly been killed off in a horrific battle & or that their lives have been tragically cut short before they reached their potential, they've just been *SQUEE* on as a concept & its sad that [for me, at least] that emotion has nothing to do with the actual story written about their deaths.

If they had been allowed to continue developing on the path that they started out with, I doubt anybody would currently be feeling like they aren't that important. The Gen Zero comic had some solid moments, I love FVL's writing in general - but originally there was a depth of maturity & complexity to them that was lost in that series. The high concept for them was twisted to fit into something they're not meant to be, in my opinion.



I agree with this. Gen zero had a lot of potential under Dysart's writing but FVL's take on the characters left me totally disinterested so by the time this story hit I had zero (pun intended) emotional attachment and so the deaths had no impact.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:48:07 am 
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Right intention by VEI, wrong creative team! Given how much energy they put into marketing this book I'd have thought they'd ensure an 'A team' of writer/artist were on the book....imagine a Dysart/Larosa team up doing this issue! :cloud9:

I was going to give this 3/5 until it was pointed out that the psiot dampener should have effected the Hard Corps too facepalm

2.5/5 - missed opportunity, ok read


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:03:20 pm 
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
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Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Right intention by VEI, wrong creative team! Given how much energy they put into marketing this book I'd have thought they'd ensure an 'A team' of writer/artist were on the book....imagine a Dysart/Larosa team up doing this issue! :cloud9:

I was going to give this 3/5 until it was pointed out that the psiot dampener should have effected the Hard Corps too facepalm

2.5/5 - missed opportunity, ok read

Or Dysart with Clayton Crain! :o

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:18:50 pm 
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
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DirtbagSailor wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Right intention by VEI, wrong creative team! Given how much energy they put into marketing this book I'd have thought they'd ensure an 'A team' of writer/artist were on the book....imagine a Dysart/Larosa team up doing this issue! :cloud9:

I was going to give this 3/5 until it was pointed out that the psiot dampener should have effected the Hard Corps too facepalm

2.5/5 - missed opportunity, ok read

Or Dysart with Clayton Crain! :o

I love Crain's work for covers, but I think his work lacks in story-telling, which is crucial for something like this issue

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:43:47 pm 
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
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kill off a bunch of characters that had great potential just for a cheap shock issue. absolute garbage. did vagabond die off panel???? a *SQUEE* donald trump tweet??????????????????????

is this a marvel comic???????????? why did they publish this *SQUEE*???????


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:50:44 pm 
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
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maybe theyll kill half of imperium squad next issue to make this story even more of a """must read"""......... why not have the united just show up and all die too while we're at it


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:57:22 pm 
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
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on the bright side though if we're going the marvel route they'll all be back in a couple of years like nothing happened!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:06:55 pm 
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi
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Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Right intention by VEI, wrong creative team! Given how much energy they put into marketing this book I'd have thought they'd ensure an 'A team' of writer/artist were on the book....imagine a Dysart/Larosa team up doing this issue! :cloud9:


This. Harbinger is a tentpole and they should have their top talent on the book. I think Heisserer would also do an amazing job on the writing, if he could be persuaded to take on another book, although I think everyone wants Dysart back in some capacity.

Artwise, I think Clayton Henry would do an amazing job. His art is clean, detailed, and easy to follow, and he does a great job with action. But there are so many Valiant artists to choose from that could do a great job. I think Diego Bernard, Segovia, Portela, Pere Perez could all have done a great job, even if some of the heavyweights weren't available (Crain, Hairsine, Mico, Larosa, Ryp, Giorello, Nord, Braithwaite). I don't get the sense that Robertson's involvement is really generating the outside interest that would justify keeping him on the title and requiring 4-month hiatuses when Valiant's art stable is just stacked.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:58:24 am 
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
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I liked Gen ZERO in Harbinger Wars.

I liked Gen Zero in Armor Hunters.

I hardly recognized Gen Zero in Generation Zero. I could not connect to them at all, and felt as if Dysart's promising concept had been scrapped for some rebellious attitude teen book.

Why were they spray painting a Zero on covers? Why was Telic randomly wearing a cowboy hat? Why was such a great concept being re-packaged and marketed like this?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42:55 pm 
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
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DirtbagSailor wrote:
I liked Gen ZERO in Harbinger Wars.

I liked Gen Zero in Armor Hunters.

I hardly recognized Gen Zero in Generation Zero. I could not connect to them at all, and felt as if Dysart's promising concept had been scrapped for some rebellious attitude teen book.

Why were they spray painting a Zero on covers? Why was Telic randomly wearing a cowboy hat? Why was such a great concept being re-packaged and marketed like this?


Honestly I think we have to look at editorial for this. Editorial went to FVL wanting a "teen" book and then gave him the Gen Zero characters to do that with. Editorial chose Roberts pitch over Dysart's. Editorial thought it would be a good idea to put Hillary Clinton on a cover the week of the election.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:59:21 pm 
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
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hawkeyeps wrote:
DirtbagSailor wrote:
I liked Gen ZERO in Harbinger Wars.

I liked Gen Zero in Armor Hunters.

I hardly recognized Gen Zero in Generation Zero. I could not connect to them at all, and felt as if Dysart's promising concept had been scrapped for some rebellious attitude teen book.

Why were they spray painting a Zero on covers? Why was Telic randomly wearing a cowboy hat? Why was such a great concept being re-packaged and marketed like this?


Honestly I think we have to look at editorial for this. Editorial went to FVL wanting a "teen" book and then gave him the Gen Zero characters to do that with. Editorial chose Roberts pitch over Dysart's. Editorial thought it would be a good idea to put Hillary Clinton on a cover the week of the election.


I agree with this. There have been some shaky editorial decisions, there have also been some excellent ones but with such a low number of books I don't think VEI can afford too many 'Gen Zero' 'A&A' standard books or to put B list creative teams on key issues such as HR #5. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:54:44 pm 
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
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DirtbagSailor wrote:
Why was such a great concept being re-packaged and marketed like this?


While I liked Gen 0 more and more as the story unfolded, I'm in agreement that it drifted far afield from what I was expecting and hoping for. Re-packaged is an apt description.

And the fact that they made no mention of the other team members who didn't make the cut for the book is a little baffling.


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