PGX vs CGC - background info

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ZephyrWasHOT!!
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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

ckb wrote:
If Ebay had been around during Superman 75, the sheer quantity of them available on Ebay
could have set the prices lower, more quickly... once the "gotta have it at any price" people
had their copies, prices would have fallen.
It's likely that an auction or two might have even hit $1,000 for Superman 75,
but I doubt if it would have actually been paid. And if so, not many.
What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?

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Post by whovianone »

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote:
If Ebay had been around during Superman 75, the sheer quantity of them available on Ebay
could have set the prices lower, more quickly... once the "gotta have it at any price" people
had their copies, prices would have fallen.
It's likely that an auction or two might have even hit $1,000 for Superman 75,
but I doubt if it would have actually been paid. And if so, not many.
What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.

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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote:
If Ebay had been around during Superman 75, the sheer quantity of them available on Ebay
could have set the prices lower, more quickly... once the "gotta have it at any price" people
had their copies, prices would have fallen.
It's likely that an auction or two might have even hit $1,000 for Superman 75,
but I doubt if it would have actually been paid. And if so, not many.
What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.
How can the words "vastly UNDER-printed" and "4 million first prints, plus nearly a half million 2nd-4th prints" go together....?

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Post by whovianone »

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote:
If Ebay had been around during Superman 75, the sheer quantity of them available on Ebay
could have set the prices lower, more quickly... once the "gotta have it at any price" people
had their copies, prices would have fallen.
It's likely that an auction or two might have even hit $1,000 for Superman 75,
but I doubt if it would have actually been paid. And if so, not many.
What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.
How can the words "vastly UNDER-printed" and "4 million first prints, plus nearly a half million 2nd-4th prints" go together....?
Not arguable. :-)

Is that even english? Sounds like some commie slang to me. ;-)

You can't say they are under-printed. I'm just curious how many are bagged, and how many of the bags were opened.

Anyone ever seen a stat on the number of bagged Direct issues?

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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote:
If Ebay had been around during Superman 75, the sheer quantity of them available on Ebay
could have set the prices lower, more quickly... once the "gotta have it at any price" people
had their copies, prices would have fallen.
It's likely that an auction or two might have even hit $1,000 for Superman 75,
but I doubt if it would have actually been paid. And if so, not many.
What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.
How can the words "vastly UNDER-printed" and "4 million first prints, plus nearly a half million 2nd-4th prints" go together....?
Not arguable. :-)

Is that even english? Sounds like some commie slang to me. ;-)

You can't say they are under-printed. I'm just curious how many are bagged, and how many of the bags were opened.

Anyone ever seen a stat on the number of bagged Direct issues?
I'n guessing the ratio is about 3:1.....3,000,000 bagged copies vs. 1,000,000 first print regular copies.

That corresponds to the orders I saw and my experience since then.

It's actually easier to find a bagged/opened copy than a "regular" copy.

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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote:
If Ebay had been around during Superman 75, the sheer quantity of them available on Ebay
could have set the prices lower, more quickly... once the "gotta have it at any price" people
had their copies, prices would have fallen.
It's likely that an auction or two might have even hit $1,000 for Superman 75,
but I doubt if it would have actually been paid. And if so, not many.
What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.
How can the words "vastly UNDER-printed" and "4 million first prints, plus nearly a half million 2nd-4th prints" go together....?
Not arguable. :-)
No, no, CKB's not an idiot. There's got to be a valid reason why he thinks that.

I want to hear what that is.

CKB?

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Post by whovianone »

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote: What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.
How can the words "vastly UNDER-printed" and "4 million first prints, plus nearly a half million 2nd-4th prints" go together....?
Not arguable. :-)

Is that even english? Sounds like some commie slang to me. ;-)

You can't say they are under-printed. I'm just curious how many are bagged, and how many of the bags were opened.

Anyone ever seen a stat on the number of bagged Direct issues?
I'n guessing the ratio is about 3:1.....3,000,000 bagged copies vs. 1,000,000 first print regular copies.

That corresponds to the orders I saw and my experience since then.

It's actually easier to find a bagged/opened copy than a "regular" copy.
How infuriating. You'd think there were a scant 1:10 ratio or somesuchthing.

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Post by ckb »

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
whovianone wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ckb wrote: What you said above is going to be correct 99.999% of the time, but I actually think Sup 75 would have been in the other 0.001%. Demand was so widespred and so strong, it would not have mattered. The fact is that Superman 75 was actually vastly UNDER-printed. eBay would have actually increased the audience - don't even have to leave your chair to get one. Sure, no one would have paid $1K, but it would have been a $50+ book for a long time.
I've never....in nearly 15 years...heard ANYONE claim that a book with a printrun of 4 million first print copies, plus several hundred THOUSAND 2nd, 3rd, and 4th prints.....2nd in HISTORY only to X-Men #1.....was UNDER printed.

EVER.

Got anything to support that claim?
Ok, now I was thinking... how many of those were bagged Direct editions? How many were newstand? I think also that the death of Superman is far more reaching than the death of Cap. Many "average joes" don't even know who Cap is. To any comic hardcore he's iconic, but to someone who has never read a comic, Superman is certainly MUCH more likely to be the only thing they know about comics. Wouldn't you agree?

But, that aside, I can't see it staying $50 for a long time, but I could see it still fuel a frenzy for a while. At least it would still sell regularly for the $25 that it was in the guide for.
How can the words "vastly UNDER-printed" and "4 million first prints, plus nearly a half million 2nd-4th prints" go together....?
Not arguable. :-)
No, no, CKB's not an idiot. There's got to be a valid reason why he thinks that.

I want to hear what that is.

CKB?
Someone emailed me about this question - I hadn't seen it until now. Glad to see I'm not an idiot. :-)

First, I was talking about the first printing. The later printings and TPBs were done because the first run was underprinted. Isn't that the way it works? Even the uninitated public did not fall for that, though, they wanted the black bag not the reprints.

Superman 75 was vastly UNDER-printed based on the DEMAND for the book. Any book is underprinted if everyone who wants a copy cannot get one at cover price.

4 million copies was not enough to meet the widespread demand. Sure, there was some speculation on this book that soaked up some of the print run, but that was a drop in the bucket compared to demand. DC probably could have sold 10-15 million copies at cover price.

Anyway, I'd hold up the fact that the book still fetches about $10 as evidence it was underprinted - with a 4 million print run. I find Magnus 25s in $0.25 boxes all the time. I've never seen a bagged direct edition of this book in one. (I have seen an unbagged damaged direct edition in one, as someone was buying it for $0.25... :-) )

My best story about this book has to do with a discussion I had with the owner of Comicopia in Kenmore Square. He said he came up with a HUGE figure - the largest one he could ever imagine selling - to order from Diamond. A few days before the order deadline, he called and doubled his order. Then, the day the order was due, he called and doubled his order again. (4 x the original number). He told me if he had to do it again, he would have doubled it twice more and would have sold out easily. He is a cover price kinda guy - I'm sure all his copies went out the door at cover.

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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

ckb wrote:Someone emailed me about this question - I hadn't seen it until now. Glad to see I'm not an idiot. :-)
Of course, that was before I knew you had such hatred for me. <shrug> I retract my "you're not an idiot" comment. My apologies for overestimating you.
First, I was talking about the first printing.
That's not what you said, but I'll allow you to revise your comment for the sake of the discussion, even though it changes everything.
The later printings and TPBs were done because the first run was underprinted. Isn't that the way it works? Even the uninitated public did not fall for that, though, they wanted the black bag not the reprints.

Superman 75 was vastly UNDER-printed based on the DEMAND for the book. Any book is underprinted if everyone who wants a copy cannot get one at cover price.
Normally, this would be true.

In this case, however, you utterly ignore the concept of DISTRIBUTION.

There were PLENTY of copies PRINTED.

HOWEVER.....there were NOT plenty of copies SOLD at cover price.

So, no, the book was NOT "UNDER-printed"...it was UNDER distributed.

If a dealer is hoarding 200, 400, 1000 copies (as happened), then there's plenty of copies that were PRINTED, but they aren't being DISTRIBUTED as they were meant to be, at cover price.

This created an ARTIFICIAL demand...much like what we're seeing with Cap #25, and that had a FARRRR smaller print run. Artificial demand drove prices right up, and then the books were piecemealed out, one by one.

If ALL copies that are DISTRIBUTED to people who WANT one (NOT INCLUDING those who wish to SELL to someone ELSE), and there's STILL demand, THEN you would be correct. However.....not all copies WERE available the day of release, or even shortly thereafter, which created the massive ARTIFICIAL demand which drove the prices up so high.
4 million copies was not enough to meet the widespread demand. Sure, there was some speculation on this book that soaked up some of the print run, but that was a drop in the bucket compared to demand. DC probably could have sold 10-15 million copies at cover price.
You clearly weren't around in the marketplace while this was happening, or you wouldn't make such a bizarre claim....if you were....you weren't anywhere NEAR the distribution end of things.

When dealers are massively hoarding books in anticipation of greater profits, effectively HALTING the distribution process, then it wouldn't have mattered if DC printed FIFTY million copies. A bottleneck is a bottleneck.
Anyway, I'd hold up the fact that the book still fetches about $10 as evidence it was underprinted - with a 4 million print run.
It is STILL being hoarded, to this DAY.
I find Magnus 25s in $0.25 boxes all the time. I've never seen a bagged direct edition of this book in one. (I have seen an unbagged damaged direct edition in one, as someone was buying it for $0.25... :-) )
Comparing Magnus #25, a book for which demand NEVER exceeded supply, with Superman #75 is comparing apples to laser guided intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Superman #75 will never be a quarter book, no....but you can certainly find one for cover price if you look. I can buy them for $3 each right now....well, not RIGHT now, the store is closed...but they're sitting, 5 shiny bagged copies, at $3 each in the back issue bin.

It's a good sign that it sells for cover....but that doesn't mean it was UNDER printed when it was released...it was just OVER hoarded at the distribution level.
My best story about this book has to do with a discussion I had with the owner of Comicopia in Kenmore Square. He said he came up with a HUGE figure - the largest one he could ever imagine selling - to order from Diamond. A few days before the order deadline, he called and doubled his order. Then, the day the order was due, he called and doubled his order again. (4 x the original number). He told me if he had to do it again, he would have doubled it twice more and would have sold out easily. He is a cover price kinda guy - I'm sure all his copies went out the door at cover.
That's great.

But that experience certainly isn't typical.

Like I said, I stared at a stack of 400 the day before release. The dealer, a small time local distributor wannabe, sold none of them for less than $20.

That's not proper distribution.

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Post by gavster »

Playing devils advocate explain this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Comics-SUPERMAN- ... dZViewItem
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Post by DawgPhan »

I guess that I will jsut toss this out since this seems to bee going a little onesided right now.

CGC has missed restoration.

CGC has actually missed lots of restoration on big time books from 1 particular seller...books that CGC may or amy not have know where being resubbed.

CGC has missed missing pages.

CGC has graded books that were in PGX slabs higher than PGX had graded them.

I also believe and I cant remember the exact book or books, but CGC has missed restoration that PGX has detected.

CGC isnt without fault and it didnt seem like anyone remembered to mention that.

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Post by greg »

DawgPhan wrote:CGC isnt without fault and it didnt seem like anyone remembered to mention that.
Really? :hm:
greg wrote: Since I can't afford to test each and every seller on Ebay to determine whether
they are accurate graders or not, it makes sense to use a standard like CGC.

(Of course, "accurate" implies perfection, and no one is going to be perfect,
but I shouldn't get an 8.0 when I'm buying "Near Mint".)

...

I own some CGC 9.8 books that I wouldn't grade above 9.4...

CGC is still recognized by every major auction house, dealer, and industry publications
as the professional grading standard.

PGX isn't recognized by anyone outside of Oregon.

:P

Of course they've both made mistakes... but one has done enough to get recognition,
and the other just makes it up as he goes hoping that no one will find out.
(Maybe the car exhaust in that garage is getting to him on warm days.)

CGC has graded over 800,000 books. If CGC is 99% accurate, then there are 8,000 mistakes floating around.

If PGX was 50% accurate, you could still find examples of CGC being wrong
and PGX being right. It doesn't mean PGX deserves your dollar.
Hoping that PGX didn't screw up doesn't fill me with confidence.

But if you're going to be buying comics on Ebay, what seller on Ebay is 99% accurate?
Especially when overgrading makes the seller more money...
it's like asking who the best 'used car salesmen" are...
and then hoping they have the car (comic) that you're looking for.

I'll take my chances with CGC.
Last edited by greg on Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:37:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by DawgPhan »

greg wrote:CGC is still recognized by every major auction house, dealer, and industry publications
as the professional grading standard.

PGX isn't recognized by anyone outside of Oregon.

:P

Of course they've both made mistakes... but one has done enough to get recognition,
and the other just makes it up as he goes hoping that no one will find out.
(Maybe the car exhaust in that garage is getting to him on warm days.)

CGC has graded over 800,000 books. If CGC is 99% accurate, then there are 8,000 mistakes floating around.

Still, what other grader on Ebay is 99% accurate? Especially when overgrading makes the seller more money...
I'll take my chances with CGC.

Both places have problems...just didnt seem like anyone seemed interested in listing any of the problems with CGC...

as for 99% accuracy..depending on what you call a mistake I would bet that GCC is running below 99%...an error could be poor grading or and error could be missing the fact that this book has the MVS cut out.

Oh and no one said anything about SCS, which I think that it is generally accepted that pGX's holder is a little better than CGC's with that issue...

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Post by greg »

Somehow I think DawgPhan looks at CGC vs. PGX
the same way he looks at Bull's Eye BBQ sauce vs. Dawg's Bite BBQ sauce.

It's not the same... you're not trying to defraud anyone with your sauce, Dawg...
We can't say the same for PGX.

:thumb:

Rooting for the "little guy" is sometimes a good idea...
and sometimes it's like buying a bunch of Beta tapes for your new VCR.

:wink:

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Post by DawgPhan »

greg wrote:Somehow I think DawgPhan looks at CGC vs. PGX
the same way he looks at Bull's Eye BBQ sauce vs. Dawg's Bite BBQ sauce.

It's not the same... you're not trying to defraud anyone with your sauce, Dawg...
We can't say the same for PGX.

:thumb:

Rooting for the "little guy" is sometimes a good idea...
and sometimes it's like buying a bunch of Beta tapes for your new VCR.

:wink:

nah i think that CGC is actually the better company...they clearly that the repuatation and when they do make mistakes they handle it in the most 100% correct way and make everything right. PGX tries to spin it, balme someone else, or make some other hollow gesture.

I just couldnt let it go without bashing cgc a litte...plus the original poster clearly had no idea about either company so i thought that it was fair to let him know about some of the bad thigns about cgc...certainly I dont have to tell you and ckb about cgc, you guys have forgotten more about them than I know, but someone new needs to get the bad also...

and yes for the record cgc bought back or paid for every mistake they have made, atleast to my knowledge and pertaining to the bigger mistakes. I dont think that they have paid anyone over a grade on a book, but missing resto and staple pulls have been paid for.

<shill on>speaking of BBQ sauce...you know it is getting to be grilling season again...lots of outdoor cooking going on and nothing goes better with whatever you are cooking that some delicious New South BBQ Sauce...try New South BBQ sauce on everything from Chicken to Salmon and everything inbetween... :D </shill off>

oh and bulls eye sucks.

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Post by ckb »

Unfortunately, DC cannot account for the distribution "troubles" you are describing when making the print run. The hoarders did not hoard enough to meet demand, DC did not print enough to meet demand, and selling them at $20 was only possible because they were underprinted. With 4-8 million additional copies on the market, no one would have been able to sell them for $20.

I contend that the 'distibution problems' were a mere glitch with this book, and the print run itself was the problem, due to unprecedented demand. The hoarders and gougers had no incentive to sell their copies at cover price. The higher prices also reduced demand quite a bit, as many were unwilling to pay that much of a premium for this book. This is market forces at work. The market forces could have been reversed with more supply.

The shop in Kenmore sold all their copies at cover, and would have sold 4x as many (of an already bloated order) had they ordered them. This did not happen with Bloodshot 1, as the hoarded copies were enough to meet and exceed demand, even though the book sold well at cover price. So the hoarders lost.

If you add eBay to the Supes 75 situation, it makes it worse, since it would be unlikely that there could be enough listings to meet such a high, broad demand. Now there would be support for paying the high prices, as people see actual market forces bring the copies to a high price.

Unfortunately, this discussion has reminded me why I have you on ignore, as one cannot "discuss" anything with you without being attacked ad-hominem. Why should I express my opinion to you when you are always correct, and your opinions are undenyable fact? I should not, and neither should anyone else.

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Post by Ricomortis »

I know no one asked my opinion... but I thought I would offer it anyway. :P

I have now 400+ CGC slabs. Many of them I have sent in myself. So I'll break it down into 2 versions. Mine and others:

My submissions have been pretty much on the mark upon return. I'd say about 90% or higher accuracy as to what I thought. The other 10% or less are things I either missed or could not see. Usually I look harder and find what they had seen to grade it lower. A few have been due to the fact that CGC was more strict in their grading than I was, and even fewer (like maybe 3) were due to something that MUST be on the interior and I was SHOCKED at the grade.

You guys must remember... there are 3 graders in the process. Not very often are 3 graders going to miss something.

As far as the you submit more you get higher grades.... H E double L no! Why risk your entire reputation and business on that? Besides when your package arrives they are taken out and put in a uniform package or something (can't remember) as to where the graders have NO, absolutely NO idea whose books they are.

Others I have purchased...

Most are the grade that is advertised. I have a few that have slight shaken syndrome that would knock them down a grade, which this is not CGC's fault but the el shaker or el packager or el mailer. :lol:

Greg said he has a few 9.8's he would not even grade as 9.4. Well the sam is true for me but reverse. I have a Harbinger 1 CGCed 9.4 that I would grade a 9.8. I is absolutely cherry! I also have a Shadowman #1 that looks absolutely cherry that CGC graded 9.4. (must be something inside I missed)

What it boils down to: is that we have a general idea as to what CGC considers a 9.8 (or whatever grade) but without being published publically we will never know what they do and do not take off for and how much. Yes they do miss stuff, but from the messages on these boards its as if its the norm... and it isn't and I have nearly 500 CGC slabs to back up my theory.

In my experiences... CGC has been harsher than I expected than relaxed on their grading.

As for PGX :lol: You have a better chance at the lottery on knowing your results. JK, but seriously... I have a 9.8 that I know CGC would give a 8.5, but I also have some 9.6's that I think are 9.8s. Its just that they are so inconsistant.

(GREG.... quit talking about all those pgx shadowman 0 9.9's... cause I own 2 of them :mad: :P )

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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

gavster wrote:Playing devils advocate explain this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Comics-SUPERMAN- ... dZViewItem
Explain what?

It's high price?

It's a CGC 9.8.

What else?

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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

ckb wrote:Unfortunately, DC cannot account for the distribution "troubles" you are describing when making the print run. The hoarders did not hoard enough to meet demand,
When someone refuses to sell something at cover price, in the hopes that they'll sell for much, much more, then the demand that's created isn't real demand.
DC did not print enough to meet demand, and selling them at $20 was only possible because they were underprinted.
No, it was possible because they were hoarded. Few WOULD sell them for $2.50, or $5 or $10 or $20. It was possible because of an artificial demand created by many sellers refusing to sell them for cover price.

Slym is a good example. He had the demand to buy one for cover price at his LCS. His LCS told him they weren't available...and they weren't....for cover price.

They WERE, however, available for $50 or $75 or $100 or whatever he sold them for on eBay, something that didn't exist in 1992.
With 4-8 million additional copies on the market, no one would have been able to sell them for $20.
If enough sellers hoarded them, they would have been able to. It would have been a lot harder, but it would have been possible.
I contend that the 'distibution problems' were a mere glitch with this book,
The "distribution problems" were DEALERS nationwide not selling their copies for cover price, not a "glitch."
and the print run itself was the problem, due to unprecedented demand. The hoarders and gougers had no incentive to sell their copies at cover price. The higher prices also reduced demand quite a bit, as many were unwilling to pay that much of a premium for this book. This is market forces at work. The market forces could have been reversed with more supply.
Yes, this is exactly market forces at work. They were unavailable for purchase at cover price by many, many dealers who had much more than one copy, none of which were available for sale at cover price.
The shop in Kenmore sold all their copies at cover, and would have sold 4x as many (of an already bloated order) had they ordered them. This did not happen with Bloodshot 1, as the hoarded copies were enough to meet and exceed demand, even though the book sold well at cover price. So the hoarders lost.
Lots of people lost lots of money on Superman #75.

It is, in fact, the one book that is MOST attributed to the future crash of the comics market.
If you add eBay to the Supes 75 situation, it makes it worse, since it would be unlikely that there could be enough listings to meet such a high, broad demand.
Or, it's entirely possible that the artificial demand that was created would never have happened, as eBay accelerated the reaction time, they would have sold for $50 (1992 dollars) on the first day, and the price would have plummeted in the next few days, and dealers, not wanting to miss the boat, would dump their copies as fast as they possibly could, to outflank their competition.

Example: Cap #25, which was $100 on Day 1, $70 by Day 2, and now is about $10-$20 a little less than three weeks after release. The next issue isn't even OUT, and already the market has peaked and crashed.

With a much, much, much smaller printrun....maybe as little as 200,000 copies.
Now there would be support for paying the high prices, as people see actual market forces bring the copies to a high price.
So, then, explain Cap #25. Why is it not still a $100 book? People saw actual market forces bring the copies to a high price, but it wasn't sustained.
Unfortunately, this discussion has reminded me why I have you on ignore, as one cannot "discuss" anything with you without being attacked ad-hominem.
I gave you a compliment. I showed RESPECT for you and your opinion, IN THIS THREAD.

And what was my reward for that?

"I've ignored you for years, because I don't like you or what you have to say."

Are you kidding? Seriously?

What, so my retracting my comment showing you respect was an ad hominem attack? A comment that had nothing to do with this discussion?

No, again, despite as much as you wish to paint a bad picture of me, the reality is, lots and lots of people can discuss all sorts of things with me...much like you have in this particular discussion....and have never been ad hominem attacked.

Sorry, but I only do that when it's done to me.
Why should I express my opinion to you when you are always correct, and your opinions are undenyable fact? I should not, and neither should anyone else.
You shouldn't, if that were the case. But since the evidence proves it's not, then your comment doesn't hold up, and it's....guess what.....an ad hominem attack to say that "no one else" should ever express their opinions to me, and presenting me as something I'm not. Speak for yourself, not everyone else.

So...please do go back to ignoring me. Smear from you isn't fun.

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Post by greg »

Ricomortis wrote:I know no one asked my opinion... but I thought I would offer it anyway. :P

...

You guys must remember... there are 3 graders in the process. Not very often are 3 graders going to miss something.
This is an important point in the CGC vs. PGX discussion.

Let's assume that EVERY grader from both companies is only correct 75% of the time...
That is, one out of four books they grade is graded incorrectly.

For CGC, having three graders for each book, the chance that ALL THREE grade a book incorrectly
is 25% times 25% times 25%... that is, 1.6%.

For PGX, having only one known employee, the chance that a book is graded incorrectly is 25%.

Plug in whatever numbers you want for however often you think a grader is wrong,
and no matter how you slice it, PGX comes up short.

Of course, in this scenario, three out of four PGX books are graded correctly.

The question is... Is that enough for you?

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Post by myron »

greg wrote:
Ricomortis wrote:I know no one asked my opinion... but I thought I would offer it anyway. :P

...

You guys must remember... there are 3 graders in the process. Not very often are 3 graders going to miss something.
This is an important point in the CGC vs. PGX discussion.

Let's assume that EVERY grader from both companies is only correct 75% of the time...
That is, one out of four books they grade is graded incorrectly.

For CGC, having three graders for each book, the chance that ALL THREE grade a book incorrectly
is 25% times 25% times 25%... that is, 1.6%.

For PGX, having only one known employee, the chance that a book is graded incorrectly is 25%.

Plug in whatever numbers you want for however often you think a grader is wrong,
and no matter how you slice it, PGX comes up short.

Of course, in this scenario, three out of four PGX books are graded correctly.

The question is... Is that enough for you?
that right there might be one of the best examples for comparison that we have seen on this subject in 2+ years... :thumb:

well explained greg.
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Post by DawgPhan »

myron wrote:
greg wrote:
Ricomortis wrote:I know no one asked my opinion... but I thought I would offer it anyway. :P

...

You guys must remember... there are 3 graders in the process. Not very often are 3 graders going to miss something.
This is an important point in the CGC vs. PGX discussion.

Let's assume that EVERY grader from both companies is only correct 75% of the time...
That is, one out of four books they grade is graded incorrectly.

For CGC, having three graders for each book, the chance that ALL THREE grade a book incorrectly
is 25% times 25% times 25%... that is, 1.6%.

For PGX, having only one known employee, the chance that a book is graded incorrectly is 25%.

Plug in whatever numbers you want for however often you think a grader is wrong,
and no matter how you slice it, PGX comes up short.

Of course, in this scenario, three out of four PGX books are graded correctly.

The question is... Is that enough for you?
that right there might be one of the best examples for comparison that we have seen on this subject in 2+ years... :thumb:

well explained greg.
yeah but doesnt it make it even more unexplainable how 3 people could miss that a page was missing? What is the likely hood of that happening? does the fact that stuff like that does happen move the grader's accuracy below 75% or does it indicate that maybe not all 3 graders are actually grading the exact same things. Does 1 grader look soley at the interior pages?

Have they ever said that each grader gives the entire book and grade and they work from there or is it the composite of all the graders notes that make up the total grade?

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Post by myron »

DawgPhan wrote: yeah but doesnt it make it even more unexplainable how 3 people could miss that a page was missing? What is the likely hood of that happening? does the fact that stuff like that does happen move the grader's accuracy below 75% or does it indicate that maybe not all 3 graders are actually grading the exact same things. Does 1 grader look soley at the interior pages?

Have they ever said that each grader gives the entire book and grade and they work from there or is it the composite of all the graders notes that make up the total grade?
sure it does..it fell in that 1.6% chance...the likelyhood is minute, but still there...

the probability wasn't 0. anytime humans are involved there is a likelyhood of error. We may not like it but it's there...


and don't start confusing frequencies of occurance with probabilities...two different things ...
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Post by DawgPhan »

myron wrote:
DawgPhan wrote: yeah but doesnt it make it even more unexplainable how 3 people could miss that a page was missing? What is the likely hood of that happening? does the fact that stuff like that does happen move the grader's accuracy below 75% or does it indicate that maybe not all 3 graders are actually grading the exact same things. Does 1 grader look soley at the interior pages?

Have they ever said that each grader gives the entire book and grade and they work from there or is it the composite of all the graders notes that make up the total grade?
sure it does..it fell in that 1.6% chance...the likelyhood is minute, but still there...

the probability wasn't 0. anytime humans are involved there is a likelyhood of error. We may not like it but it's there...


and don't start confusing frequencies of occurance with probabilities...two different things ...
I understand the difference....

also do we know for certain how the grading is done? Is it really 3 graders looking at the same book and assessing a grade or is it 3 graders looking at different pieces and assessing a grade..I know I have seen cgc say that more than 1 grader looks at each book, but I dont think that I have seen them say exactly how the graders look at each book.

Also if you an untrained person were to examine a book how many times for you think that you would notice that a page was missing?

How many times do you think a trained professional would miss it..

oh and now that I think about it I think that pages are only counted one time in the process and maybe not even buy a grader.



but anyway my question is the same as a point greg made a while back...

if the probability of something occuring is very very small and yet it happens on a far more frequent basis, what does that tell you? That maybe something needs some looking into...

also what do you think CGC's standards are with their graders...certainly 75% seems kinda low...but can they expect 100% accuracy? 95%

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Post by greg »

A CGC graded book has three separate grades for the whole book.
A "final grader" determines who is correct, or if a completely different grade should be assigned.

If there is a big discrepancy between grades, then the notes will tell the final grader
what one grader saw that another one missed... or he can go ask them directly.

In the end, there's still going to be error. But how much error is too much?

If you're looking for perfection, comic grading won't provide any.

If you're comparing frequency to volume, you'll make a bad comparison.

Here's why... suppose PGX has graded 10,000 books and 25% of them are incorrect.
Also suppose CGC has graded 800,000 books and 1.6% of them are incorrect.

What does that give us for volumes?
PGX = 2,500 incorrect, CGC = 12,800 incorrect.

So, if you're buying a professionally graded book and you want to avoid the incorrect ones,
you might conclude that you should buy a PGX books since there are fewer errors.

That's a bad assumption... because if you want to buy a correct slab,
we should compare how many are correct.
PGX = 7,500 correct, CGC = 787,200 correct.

Now, which one should you buy?

Imagine a bag with 4 marbles, 3 of them are black and 1 is red. (The PGX bag)
Imagine a second bag with 100 marbles, 98 of them are black and 2 are red. (The CGC bag)

If you want to be "more sure" that you can pull out a black marble,
which bag should you reach into?
If you only count the red ones, then there are fewer red marbles in the first bag. 1 for PGX vs. 2 for CGC.

But it's the 98 black vs. 3 black that is much, much more important.

It really comes down to this:
If industry professionals are willing to put millions of dollars of their own inventory
into CGC slabs, while none of them will do so for PGX (despite PGX's lower prices and better slab),
then why do I need to wonder who should slab my $50 books?

It seems like the answer should be obvious...
but everyone loves an underdog... even the ones that bite.


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