PGX vs CGC - background info

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by 400yrs »

400yrs wrote:That sucks. I just picked up a few PGX Invincibles online because they were a part of a group of CGC books that I bought and the seller gave me a good deal on them. There are no coupons to worry about, but I'm not expecting the quality to be up to CGC levels.

Well, my purchase came in. It included raw, CGC'd and PGX'd Invincibles. I'm shocked to say it, but this round most definitely, 100% goes to PGX. The below is what I bought and my "through the case" assessment:


Raw:

Invincible 100 Comixology variant
Invincible 8



Accurately graded by the grading company:

CGC 9.6 Invincible Returns sketch variant. Nothing wrong with this book except a wonky bottom staple. HOWEVER, it looks like in the slabbing process, something made the book get a bit rolled up or warped on the bottom back cover.
CGC 9.8 Invincible #12
CGC 9.8 Invincible #13
PGX 9.4 Invincible #52 Sketch variant
PGX 9.6 Invincible #9
PGX 9.8 Invincible #11


Very, very happy with these books (look better than the grade):

PGX 9.6 Invincible #10
PGX 9.6 Invincible #6


Very disappointed with these:

CGC 9.8 Invincible #33 SS by Kirkman and Ottley. Has several small ncb spine marks. If raw, this would be a 9.6 in my collection.
CGC 9.8 Invincible #16 - bottom corner blunted and light color rub on the back. This would be no better than a 9.6 raw in my collection. It's good to know though that CGC doesn't take off for the color rub that is prevalent on these early Invincibles.
CGC 9.8 Invincible #14 - Has 2 spine dings and one that is more like a non color breaking spine crease. It may have happened during the slabbing process, but this book would be a 9.4-9.6 in my collection. Bummed on this one.



My past experience with PGX books was terrible so I only bought these because they were cheap and I wasn't expecting much from them. Last time with PGX, I got a highly overgraded PGX Magnus 12 and EW Golds. However, this round most definitely goes to the guy in his basement over the titan that is CGC. Very impressed with this round of books from PGX. CGC is still leaving me disappointed with the grading and the damage that happens in their encapsulation process and not wanting to buy 9.8s over the internet.

PGX wins here.
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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

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:hm:
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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by greg »

greg wrote:The short version of the story is this:

If someone sends their books to PGX, they get graded and slabbed according to one guy's opinion.
Those books go back to the sender as "legit" as they were to begin with, plus one guy's opinion.

If someone has connections to PGX, they might grade and slab their own books.
Those books get put into the market with fake grades, overlooked restoration, overpriced junk.

When buying a PGX book, especially online, it's very hard to know which one you're getting.
bump :P

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by Intrepidxc »

greg wrote:
greg wrote:The short version of the story is this:

If someone sends their books to PGX, they get graded and slabbed according to one guy's opinion.
Those books go back to the sender as "legit" as they were to begin with, plus one guy's opinion.

If someone has connections to PGX, they might grade and slab their own books.
Those books get put into the market with fake grades, overlooked restoration, overpriced junk.

When buying a PGX book, especially online, it's very hard to know which one you're getting.
bump :P
I'm actually considering running a test, but I can't figure out how to do it fairly (or cheaply for that matter). Essentially I've got a few copies of some books that would make great slab candidates. Nothing insanely valuable but some stuff that might be of interest to the community. For example I have 2 copies of at least 9.6 V1 Shadowman #1. I'm thinking about sending 1 book to PGX and then one to CGC. After I get them both back, I could get the grader notes for the books, then crack them open and send the books to the other company. Once I get them back again I could request grader notes and see what/if was missed and if the grades are the same.

I haven't decided if I'd want to do this yet (cost prohibitive) but I'm thinking about the long run. I won't slab books for resale only for my personal collection. If PGX could pass my test I might be willing to send them some other stuff I want graded, thus saving me $ and time in the long run.

Anyway poke holes in my experiment to either a) help me design it better, or b) not do it :D

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by greg »

Intrepidxc wrote:
greg wrote:
greg wrote:The short version of the story is this:

If someone sends their books to PGX, they get graded and slabbed according to one guy's opinion.
Those books go back to the sender as "legit" as they were to begin with, plus one guy's opinion.

If someone has connections to PGX, they might grade and slab their own books.
Those books get put into the market with fake grades, overlooked restoration, overpriced junk.

When buying a PGX book, especially online, it's very hard to know which one you're getting.
bump :P
I'm actually considering running a test, but I can't figure out how to do it fairly (or cheaply for that matter). Essentially I've got a few copies of some books that would make great slab candidates. Nothing insanely valuable but some stuff that might be of interest to the community. For example I have 2 copies of at least 9.6 V1 Shadowman #1. I'm thinking about sending 1 book to PGX and then one to CGC. After I get them both back, I could get the grader notes for the books, then crack them open and send the books to the other company. Once I get them back again I could request grader notes and see what/if was missed and if the grades are the same.

I haven't decided if I'd want to do this yet (cost prohibitive) but I'm thinking about the long run. I won't slab books for resale only for my personal collection. If PGX could pass my test I might be willing to send them some other stuff I want graded, thus saving me $ and time in the long run.

Anyway poke holes in my experiment to either a) help me design it better, or b) not do it :D
Here's a hole in the experiment...

It doesn't matter what PGX grades your books because you'll end up with a book in a PGX holder.

That book is not going to sell for as much as the same book in a CGC holder because the market is very clear on that subject.
Generally speaking, PGX books sell for about the same as raw books... unless the buyer is truly unaware of the problems with PGX.

Furthermore, your experiment would be legitimate. The problem with PGX isn't what they do legitimately... it's what they do criminally that is the problem.

PGX is basically saying, "Sure, I steal... but not from everybody... so trust me."

No thanks.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by 400yrs »

Even with my post above, I agree with greg. I'd never even consider sending any books to pgx. Buy them cheap when I can get them? Yeah probably after this experience.

If you really want to do it though, send them both to pgx first and then to cgc. That will save you shipping money and will help down the line if you decide to sell them.
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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by Intrepidxc »

greg wrote:
Intrepidxc wrote:
greg wrote:
greg wrote:The short version of the story is this:

If someone sends their books to PGX, they get graded and slabbed according to one guy's opinion.
Those books go back to the sender as "legit" as they were to begin with, plus one guy's opinion.

If someone has connections to PGX, they might grade and slab their own books.
Those books get put into the market with fake grades, overlooked restoration, overpriced junk.

When buying a PGX book, especially online, it's very hard to know which one you're getting.
bump :P
I'm actually considering running a test, but I can't figure out how to do it fairly (or cheaply for that matter). Essentially I've got a few copies of some books that would make great slab candidates. Nothing insanely valuable but some stuff that might be of interest to the community. For example I have 2 copies of at least 9.6 V1 Shadowman #1. I'm thinking about sending 1 book to PGX and then one to CGC. After I get them both back, I could get the grader notes for the books, then crack them open and send the books to the other company. Once I get them back again I could request grader notes and see what/if was missed and if the grades are the same.

I haven't decided if I'd want to do this yet (cost prohibitive) but I'm thinking about the long run. I won't slab books for resale only for my personal collection. If PGX could pass my test I might be willing to send them some other stuff I want graded, thus saving me $ and time in the long run.

Anyway poke holes in my experiment to either a) help me design it better, or b) not do it :D
Here's a hole in the experiment...

It doesn't matter what PGX grades your books because you'll end up with a book in a PGX holder.

That book is not going to sell for as much as the same book in a CGC holder because the market is very clear on that subject.
Generally speaking, PGX books sell for about the same as raw books... unless the buyer is truly unaware of the problems with PGX.

Furthermore, your experiment would be legitimate. The problem with PGX isn't what they do legitimately... it's what they do criminally that is the problem.

PGX is basically saying, "Sure, I steal... but not from everybody... so trust me."

No thanks.
Good point. I was just reading up on the older PGX scandal where they switched printings on a guy. Something like he sent a TMNT #1 First print to PGX and got back a TMNT #1 4th print.

Other than the few PGX books at my LCS (which I didn't buy) I don't see many PGX books priced appropriately. Everything on eBay is priced as if they were graded by CGC. I'd love to find some more cheap PGX slabs that I could look at and maybe add to my collection, but I won't purchase them on eBay and definitely won't pay the same price as a CGC book.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by bosco685 »

Intrepidxc wrote:Good point. I was just reading up on the older PGX scandal where they switched printings on a guy. Something like he sent a TMNT #1 First print to PGX and got back a TMNT #1 4th print.

Other than the few PGX books at my LCS (which I didn't buy) I don't see many PGX books priced appropriately. Everything on eBay is priced as if they were graded by CGC. I'd love to find some more cheap PGX slabs that I could look at and maybe add to my collection, but I won't purchase them on eBay and definitely won't pay the same price as a CGC book.
Although PGX is a dangerous game to play when it comes to submit your books for grading or purchasing from others, I still think the scammer got scammed in that situation.

TMNT 1 PGX and discussions about honey

It just feels very staged, with an atmosphere of BSing for the camera. But I may be very wrong. Only that person will ever know, though he was able to force PGX to pay after a huge social media campaign to make the Collectors Society Forum, Comicspriceguide Forum, and many other sites aware of the situation. He even went as far as to post an image of the PGX check they mailed him to close out the campaign (it's somewhere online still).

Couldn't have happened to a better company. :wink:

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by Intrepidxc »

I just took a chance on a eBay PGX book. Turok #1 Gold 9.8. Picked it up for $25.00 shipped. We'll see how it turns out.
Last edited by Intrepidxc on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:46:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by bosco685 »

I think you will be fine. The PGX situations seem to be associated with high-dollar books.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by Intrepidxc »

bosco685 wrote:I think you will be fine. The PGX situations seem to be associated with high-dollar books.
Yeah I agree. Getting the Turok 1 Gold 9.8 for $25.00 is nice and I'll be able to take a look at a PGX slab up close. I'll probably continue to pickup any PGX books that I find for really good deals.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by Intrepidxc »

I received the PGX Turok 1 Gold 9.8 today. Overall the book is in good condition but there is slight damage to the lower left corner similar to the two CGC 9.6s I have. If I hadn't paid $25.00 shipped for the book I might be upset but for that price it's acceptable. I will definitely be sticking to CGC books on eBay unless the price is worth taking a gamble.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by bosco685 »

Intrepidxc wrote:I received the PGX Turok 1 Gold 9.8 today. Overall the book is in good condition but there is slight damage to the lower left corner similar to the two CGC 9.6s I have. If I hadn't paid $25.00 shipped for the book I might be upset but for that price it's acceptable. I will definitely be sticking to CGC books on eBay unless the price is worth taking a gamble.
Oh man. That is the pits. Sorry.

:peace:

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by Intrepidxc »

bosco685 wrote:
Intrepidxc wrote:I received the PGX Turok 1 Gold 9.8 today. Overall the book is in good condition but there is slight damage to the lower left corner similar to the two CGC 9.6s I have. If I hadn't paid $25.00 shipped for the book I might be upset but for that price it's acceptable. I will definitely be sticking to CGC books on eBay unless the price is worth taking a gamble.
Oh man. That is the pits. Sorry.

:peace:
I may have made it sound worse than it actually is. The book is still in great condition, but the left corner looks like those I've seen in 9.6 CGC books. Regardless for the price I paid I'm happy with the book.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by bosco685 »

Intrepidxc wrote:
bosco685 wrote:
Intrepidxc wrote:I received the PGX Turok 1 Gold 9.8 today. Overall the book is in good condition but there is slight damage to the lower left corner similar to the two CGC 9.6s I have. If I hadn't paid $25.00 shipped for the book I might be upset but for that price it's acceptable. I will definitely be sticking to CGC books on eBay unless the price is worth taking a gamble.
Oh man. That is the pits. Sorry.

:peace:
I may have made it sound worse than it actually is. The book is still in great condition, but the left corner looks like those I've seen in 9.6 CGC books. Regardless for the price I paid I'm happy with the book.
I'm glad at least you are pleased with the results. It's nice when a purchase ends on a happy note.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by IMJ »

bosco685 wrote:Although PGX is a dangerous game to play when it comes to submit your books for grading or purchasing from others, I still think the scammer got scammed in that situation.

TMNT 1 PGX and discussions about honey

It just feels very staged, with an atmosphere of BSing for the camera. But I may be very wrong. Only that person will ever know, though he was able to force PGX to pay after a huge social media campaign to make the Collectors Society Forum, Comicspriceguide Forum, and many other sites aware of the situation. He even went as far as to post an image of the PGX check they mailed him to close out the campaign (it's somewhere online still).

Couldn't have happened to a better company. :wink:
WOW.

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by GGSAE »

Intrepidxc wrote:
greg wrote:
Intrepidxc wrote:
greg wrote:
greg wrote:The short version of the story is this:

If someone sends their books to PGX, they get graded and slabbed according to one guy's opinion.
Those books go back to the sender as "legit" as they were to begin with, plus one guy's opinion.

If someone has connections to PGX, they might grade and slab their own books.
Those books get put into the market with fake grades, overlooked restoration, overpriced junk.

When buying a PGX book, especially online, it's very hard to know which one you're getting.
bump :P
I'm actually considering running a test, but I can't figure out how to do it fairly (or cheaply for that matter). Essentially I've got a few copies of some books that would make great slab candidates. Nothing insanely valuable but some stuff that might be of interest to the community. For example I have 2 copies of at least 9.6 V1 Shadowman #1. I'm thinking about sending 1 book to PGX and then one to CGC. After I get them both back, I could get the grader notes for the books, then crack them open and send the books to the other company. Once I get them back again I could request grader notes and see what/if was missed and if the grades are the same.

I haven't decided if I'd want to do this yet (cost prohibitive) but I'm thinking about the long run. I won't slab books for resale only for my personal collection. If PGX could pass my test I might be willing to send them some other stuff I want graded, thus saving me $ and time in the long run.

Anyway poke holes in my experiment to either a) help me design it better, or b) not do it :D
Here's a hole in the experiment...

It doesn't matter what PGX grades your books because you'll end up with a book in a PGX holder.

That book is not going to sell for as much as the same book in a CGC holder because the market is very clear on that subject.
Generally speaking, PGX books sell for about the same as raw books... unless the buyer is truly unaware of the problems with PGX.

Furthermore, your experiment would be legitimate. The problem with PGX isn't what they do legitimately... it's what they do criminally that is the problem.

PGX is basically saying, "Sure, I steal... but not from everybody... so trust me."

No thanks.
Good point. I was just reading up on the older PGX scandal where they switched printings on a guy. Something like he sent a TMNT #1 First print to PGX and got back a TMNT #1 4th print.

Other than the few PGX books at my LCS (which I didn't buy) I don't see many PGX books priced appropriately. Everything on eBay is priced as if they were graded by CGC. I'd love to find some more cheap PGX slabs that I could look at and maybe add to my collection, but I won't purchase them on eBay and definitely won't pay the same price as a CGC book.
My first ever submission I sent to CGC included a Harbinger 1 (probably a 9.4/9.6) and received a Harbinger 0 Blue. I didn't keep the original, and I may even have filled out the form wrong, so I had zero recourse. I also didn't include the original forms with the box (again rookie mistake), so it (the package) was sitting at CGC unchecked for awhile before I contacted them...lesson learned, cover your tracks!

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by bosco685 »

GGSAE wrote:My first ever submission I sent to CGC included a Harbinger 1 (probably a 9.4/9.6) and received a Harbinger 0 Blue. I didn't keep the original, and I may even have filled out the form wrong, so I had zero recourse. I also didn't include the original forms with the box (again rookie mistake), so it (the package) was sitting at CGC unchecked for awhile before I contacted them...lesson learned, cover your tracks!
Could it be since you didn't enclose any forms with the order that your order and another "rookie" may have been mixed together? This would be a rare situation anyway, as CGC Receiving inventories everything before it goes through the grading process.

CGC Receiving Process explained

CGC has its problems from time-to-time, including not growing its staff to deal with show seasons and excessive submission handling at shows. Even the Chicago show last year where two dealers submitting separate 500-book orders overwhelmed their staff and inventory as that is not a common experience at a show.

Swapping out books is not one of CGC's issues noted by people submitting regularly. That is a special service experience reserved by PGX. :P

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by GGSAE »

bosco685 wrote:
GGSAE wrote:My first ever submission I sent to CGC included a Harbinger 1 (probably a 9.4/9.6) and received a Harbinger 0 Blue. I didn't keep the original, and I may even have filled out the form wrong, so I had zero recourse. I also didn't include the original forms with the box (again rookie mistake), so it (the package) was sitting at CGC unchecked for awhile before I contacted them...lesson learned, cover your tracks!
Could it be since you didn't enclose any forms with the order that your order and another "rookie" may have been mixed together? This would be a rare situation anyway, as CGC Receiving inventories everything before it goes through the grading process.

CGC Receiving Process explained

CGC has its problems from time-to-time, including not growing its staff to deal with show seasons and excessive submission handling at shows. Even the Chicago show last year where two dealers submitting separate 500-book orders overwhelmed their staff and inventory as that is not a common experience at a show.

Swapping out books is not one of CGC's issues noted by people submitting regularly. That is a special service experience reserved by PGX. :P
I don't think that's what happened because the guy I spoke with on the phone basically said the books were under his control the whole time. It's possible they got swapped with someone, but it seems rare that one book would be mixed up? Anyways take it as a lesson learned...

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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by slym2none »

Getting ready to send off 6 now-Modern tier X-Men (#s in the range of 95-125) and I refuse to pay for "Fast Track."

I will let y'all know.



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Re: PGX vs CGC - background info

Post by slym2none »

#porchdick



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