In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

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Ryan
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In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

I do.

I get the advantages of rebooting with an 'Ultimate' style restart, but it also neuters one of VH1's greatest strengths which was the tightly woven universe and Rai 0.

Rebooting everything from the beginning and hitting some of the same broad stroke plot points as the original runs the risk of in the long run being seen as a pale imitation. E.G. Ultimate Marvel. No one would argue that Bendis and Bagley's Ultimate Spider-Man isn't a more modern, sophisticated, realistically rendered take on Spider-Man compared to Lee and Ditko's. But which is the definitive version? Which version will still be reprinted 100 years from now?

I get that writers and artists don't want to be burdened by all the continuity and constraints of fitting their story into what has come before. But the thing is, continuity isn't for writers, it's for readers. Don't you think it would've been easier for Stan Lee just to say muck it, I got this crazy cool new idea who cares what happened in FF 56. But no, he understood it was worth it to constrain his stories to fit what had come before, because for a reader, the illusion that every story fits together into one huge uber epic is one of the great joys of reading comics. And keeps people coming back.

So the question always was, do you go from X-0 68 with the whole dream ending or do you even go back to the end of Unity and everyone pops out of their BWS bubbles in the current year?

I miss the days when this board was full of discussions of this nature. The pulse seems faint now. I hope all the Pro-grannies and Anti-grannies can agree everyone wants the same thing, great Valiant comics.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by magnusr »

Ryan wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:19:21 pm I do.
I did.

Then after reading the first reboot, I concluded I was wrong.

Now I'm not sure.

/Magnus

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by ckb »

I think the loss of the GK characters made it impossible, so it became moot.

In a perfect world, yes... picking up after a few issues post unity would have been ideal to me.

I must admit I did like the modern 2012 "rework" for the first year-ish. Harbinger had the right edge to it, hit on some things Shooter avoided. X-O diverged more than Harbinger, but it was not in a bad way.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by The Harbinger »

VH1 was going off the rails anyway, so no. By the end of VH1 Harbinger storyline, they had Sting shooting energy blasts against a time traveler. Solar was peacing out from a world he created that delved into chaos. XO was dreaming. Harbinger Renegades were trying to be Saved by the Bell after #25. It had gone a long way from Sting complaining about how hard it is to maneuver a car in the air while fighting someone with electrical powers that has their bolts jump towards metal. Ninjak and Hard Corps were terrible towards the end as well in that I think they just ran out of ideas. No writer wants to pick up where Birthquake left off.

I hate what VEI became in the Antos era, but there were some strong characters that came around (Harada of VEI I think is superior to Harada of VH1). It was good to see the great characters (Sunlight on Snow or Angela Vessel for example) vs the ones that were terrible (Kris, Psi-Lords).

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

ckb wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:10:13 pm I think the loss of the GK characters made it impossible, so it became moot.
I don't think it would be impossible, Magnus was in the future, Turok was never a major player. Solar's disappearance and people not remembering him could be explained in a lot of ways.
ckb wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:10:13 pm In a perfect world, yes... picking up after a few issues post unity would have been ideal to me.
I think that was the popular sentiment pre-VEI. But how to do it, you can't just set everything in 1992. That's where it gets tricky.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

The Harbinger wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:22:02 pm VH1 was going off the rails anyway, so no. By the end of VH1 Harbinger storyline, they had Sting shooting energy blasts against a time traveler. Solar was peacing out from a world he created that delved into chaos. XO was dreaming. Harbinger Renegades were trying to be Saved by the Bell after #25. It had gone a long way from Sting complaining about how hard it is to maneuver a car in the air while fighting someone with electrical powers that has their bolts jump towards metal. Ninjak and Hard Corps were terrible towards the end as well in that I think they just ran out of ideas. No writer wants to pick up where Birthquake left off.

I hate what VEI became in the Antos era, but there were some strong characters that came around (Harada of VEI I think is superior to Harada of VH1). It was good to see the great characters (Sunlight on Snow or Angela Vessel for example) vs the ones that were terrible (Kris, Psi-Lords).
I'm not saying there weren't a lot of good things in VEI. Now that that era's been in the rearview mirror for a few years, I'm just revisiting the old question of hard reboot vs. soft reboot vs. continuation of continuity. Like Magnus R. said, I think at the time (2010-2012) I would have agreed that a full reboot was the right way to go. Reintroduce the characters and concepts to a new generation, give everything a fresh start without the baggage. Show off the properties in their best light like a movie or tv show would.

But I was reading a random issue of ASM, #278 from 1986. It's an extremely average comic, but the way it casually references things in the past all the way back to the early issues made it feel like it's still the same story. I realized that was one of the unique things I loved about comics and also something that made back issues so valuable. People want to go back and read the whole story. If everything is a standalone miniseries that doesn't connect to anything (like is the trend now), I think people's interest in comics is hurt in the long run. That feeling that every detail in the story mattered because it was part of a bigger story was what the OG Valiant was built on and what everyone loved about pre-Unity.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by SwiftMann »

I think a soft reboot that somehow acknowledged the 90s versions would have been nice, but I don't think it would have changed anything. The stories were good, but very decompressed in the first year or two. Despite Dinesh being a passionate marketer VEI never gained critical mass as far as a reader base despite the quality and sales had been slipping before DMG's buyout, which was basically the last, giant nail in the coffin.

I do think the lack of Solar and Magnus hurt a bit. They were the backbone of VH1. But again, this wouldn't have really changed anything.
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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

SwiftMann wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:13:33 am I think a soft reboot that somehow acknowledged the 90s versions would have been nice
I think that's the nail on the head. There's a lot of ways that could've been done that wouldn't have altered what kind of stories they wanted to tell. For instance, Rai by Matt Kindt. Kindt wanted to tell a murder mystery story with A.I. and all that (sorry I don't remember the details), that could've easily been done within the framework of what had been established in VH1. There's no reason to change Grandmother to Father, Harbinger to Psiot, etc. Changing things for no other reason than to seem fresh, as opposed to doing the research and blending your vision into what has come before is what I'm talking about.

I think going the hard reboot route and not becoming the definitive version makes it feel like another iteration (VH5?). Now for some people maybe this is the definitive version. What's the next relaunch of X-0 is going to be, I have no idea (VH5.6?). I just never thought 10 years of new Valiant comics would lead to the fandom dissolving while comics are still coming out. Or maybe we just got old and discovered new interests? Snyderverse DC movies or something.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by jmatt »

The Harbinger wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:22:02 pm VH1 was going off the rails anyway, so no. ...No writer wants to pick up where Birthquake left off.
That's it exactly. I definitely would not want them to have picked up where VH1 or VH2 left off. So then if not that, then when? Each title probably has a good point to have picked up from... but they wouldn't have been from the same time necessarily.
The Harbinger wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:22:02 pmI hate what VEI became in the Antos era, but there were some strong characters that came around (Harada of VEI I think is superior to Harada of VH1). It was good to see the great characters (Sunlight on Snow or Angela Vessel for example) vs the ones that were terrible (Kris, Psi-Lords).
Ditto on Antos. The VEI Harada is better than the VH1 because of Dysart. In many ways, even Harbinger in general was better. That whole VEI Harby run through Imperium was just fantastic.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

jmatt wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:19:52 pm
The Harbinger wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:22:02 pm VH1 was going off the rails anyway, so no. ...No writer wants to pick up where Birthquake left off.
That's it exactly. I definitely would not want them to have picked up where VH1 or VH2 left off. So then if not that, then when? Each title probably has a good point to have picked up from... but they wouldn't have been from the same time necessarily.
Going from memory, there was a pretty clear consensus on the board during the '00s that the only stuff most people wanted to save in a restart was up through Unity and Rai 0 + Bob Hall's Shadowman. And maybe some Bloodshot. I personally think post-Unity VH1 is 80-85% hot trash, some people are more generous but most agreed that post-Bquake is almost all better forgotten. Easy enough to just ignore the dumb stuff, it's done all the time with stuff that remains in continuity. Even Gold Key Magnus is technically in VH1 continuity, they just ignored the cornier aspects and outdated stuff.

Where to pick up would depend on the character. No problem with the Immortal characters that don't age or the lineage characters (Shadowman, Rai) that aren't tied to a specific character anyway. The biggest problem is the 2 flagship titles, X-0 and Harbinger. You maybe wouldn't want to start with an old X-0 or Harbinger kids. X-0 could technically be a lineage title that follows different people in the armor, but the Conan in a can thing stuck. Same with Harbinger, could be a different team but Pete and Faith became somewhat iconic for that title. Could be done though, have a new young team and have an older super powerful Pete as a mysterious supporting character.

There's so many reboots and new number 1's these days, so much accessibility and yet the number of readers keeps dropping. It's all so bland and predictable. I say continue from the old numbering and the old continuity, just ignore the dumb stuff. New Harbinger kids, old Aric in the X-0 suit, it's 2022, Harada's in hiding, Archer is dead, Jack is dead, new Shadowman, new Rai, same Bloodshot, same Eternal Warrior, same Armstrong. Just pick it up from there, that would actually be exciting. Who needs another origin retelling, *SQUEE* is so boring.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by lorddunlow »

I would have loved to see VEI sort of treat original Valiant like original Valiant treated GK Magnus - reprinting some old stuff along with cherry picking storylines to continue, with the only difference being I think they could keep the universes (original Valiant vs VEI) separate. Would have pleased the old heads like us without hamstringing themselves.

Could also have provided a way to crossover in a Unity-like event. If they wanted.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by greg »

Since hindsight implies we get to know everything we know now, I think there's still an opportunity to establish the multiverse for Valiant.

We're seeing multiple versions of Marvel and DC storylines running at the same time in comics, streaming series, movies, and it might be confusing to the casual observer but fans are aware of the differences and understand which sandbox is being presented - multiple Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man stories that aren't the "same" universe.

Valiant 1990s is the result of Solar destroying and rebuilding the universe after manifesting his own childhood comic book hero Dr. Solar (1960s) in the reactor collapse. As soon as Valiant had two titles in 1991 (Magnus and Solar), Valiant had at least two universes where things actually happened, but not within the same universe. Putting the 1992 Lost Land in the middle of multiple universes (as well as timelines) is very similar to the "location" where Loki (and Silvia Loki) met Kang in the MCU. Marvel's "What If..." series really shows the way Valiant could be "true" no matter which version we're discussing.

Since it's 2022, comic fans would understand if all versions of Valiant (and Acclaim, and even Gold Key) were valid, but it introduces the same storytelling problems that Marvel and DC have, where even the death of every major character in the universe isn't really a problem, since they're alive somewhere (or somewhen) else.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

lorddunlow wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:03:47 am I would have loved to see VEI sort of treat original Valiant like original Valiant treated GK Magnus - reprinting some old stuff along with cherry picking storylines to continue, with the only difference being I think they could keep the universes (original Valiant vs VEI) separate. Would have pleased the old heads like us without hamstringing themselves.

Could also have provided a way to crossover in a Unity-like event. If they wanted.
Yeah that's basically a soft reboot and I agree. It might have made things more difficult in the beginning but I think would have been worth it to acknowledge some of the old stuff.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

greg wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:11:45 am Since hindsight implies we get to know everything we know now, I think there's still an opportunity to establish the multiverse for Valiant.

We're seeing multiple versions of Marvel and DC storylines running at the same time in comics, streaming series, movies, and it might be confusing to the casual observer but fans are aware of the differences and understand which sandbox is being presented - multiple Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man stories that aren't the "same" universe.

Valiant 1990s is the result of Solar destroying and rebuilding the universe after manifesting his own childhood comic book hero Dr. Solar (1960s) in the reactor collapse. As soon as Valiant had two titles in 1991 (Magnus and Solar), Valiant had at least two universes where things actually happened, but not within the same universe. Putting the 1992 Lost Land in the middle of multiple universes (as well as timelines) is very similar to the "location" where Loki (and Silvia Loki) met Kang in the MCU. Marvel's "What If..." series really shows the way Valiant could be "true" no matter which version we're discussing.

Since it's 2022, comic fans would understand if all versions of Valiant (and Acclaim, and even Gold Key) were valid, but it introduces the same storytelling problems that Marvel and DC have, where even the death of every major character in the universe isn't really a problem, since they're alive somewhere (or somewhen) else.
Good points, multiverses can get very messy but I think it's the best way to keep all the comics ever published under the Valiant name relevant. And like you said Valiant has basically been a multiverse since its inception. I'm also the one guy who liked VH2 Ninjak :P , so the cherry picking approach has definite merits.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

The way I mentioned above I would do it, a full restart of VH1, would ignore the fact that there currently seems to be more people invested in the VEI era than the VH1 era. Which makes sense due to recency and overall quality of VEI. So a compromised way would be to reintroduce VH1 into some sort of multiverse that includes VEI.

Then the question becomes, how do you (hypothetically) do it? Some pitfalls of a multiverse - lower accessibility, easily gets confusing, possibly lower stakes. Merging the multiverses and ending up with one 'true' cherry picked timeline is exactly what Unity 2000 was trying to do. It obviously didn't turn out well. I don't hate it (I'm a Shooter stan though), but I would say it's main weakness is it was forced to be an out of context multiverse car crash so it had no time to organically develop the story or any of the characters.

I think a better way to pull something like that off today would be to do it much more subtly. Just start a book or 2 that are clearly set in the VH1 continuity (Rai and Eternal Warrior for example) with no explanation, and make them good on their own. Then slowly introduce the multiverse elements, leading to an event that would explain more and bring in things from VEI. Having the VH1 lost land already established as a timespace hub makes it the obvious tool. Don't call it Unity 2022 :D

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by The Harbinger »

I think one thing to consider is the inclusion of licensed characters Magnus, Solar and Turok. Magnus and Solar, in particular, played important roles in the development of the VH1, which would cause continuity problems if they lost the license. That’s why I think that if you’re going to use characters owned by another company in a shared universe, you’re better off buying them outright.

At this point, it'd be easier to disregard the last few years of VEI and just start fresh from where it's been left off for recency bias. I'd love to see VH1 Harbinger #26 carry over with what Peter did next instead of what we got, but I doubt even a thousand people are asking for that. 2012 is an easier jumpoff point than the 90s. Many of those fans are long gone.


Another thing for successful rebooting, I've come to the opinion that comics in general hurt from continuity. A huge barrier to entry for Liefeld's Image run was how everything referenced a happening in another Image Comic, and it seems like comics all started adopting that mindset. Besides bad stories, I'm not sure how you get new readers picking up these comics since they have no idea what is going on. I made a similar comparison with the current Harbinger series where I chuckled at the thought of a dad bringing home Harbinger #5 to his kid to get him interested in comics. No chance Valiant has converted a single new reader onto comics in later years.


The long point would be, is continuity even a good thing anymore? Batman Animated Series is great because they were standalone stories. Ditto with Spiderman cartoon. Establish some basic origins, and then make the story easily accessible. Maybe you make a reference here or there to another time.

I've hoped the future of comics goes in a Superman: Man of Tomorrow 2020 route vs establishing universe wide continuity, which isn't how I felt 10 years ago.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

The Harbinger wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:01:54 am The long point would be, is continuity even a good thing anymore? Batman Animated Series is great because they were standalone stories. Ditto with Spiderman cartoon. Establish some basic origins, and then make the story easily accessible. Maybe you make a reference here or there to another time.

I've hoped the future of comics goes in a Superman: Man of Tomorrow 2020 route vs establishing universe wide continuity, which isn't how I felt 10 years ago.
That's the counter argument right, what good is continuity anyway? All it does is make comics less accessible, and makes creator's jobs harder by constraining their artist vision. I think this opinion is becoming more and more the conventional way of thinking in comics. Great stories can definitely be told as self contained story arcs that have no connection with previous or future stories, like most movies. Continuity itself doesn't make a story good or bad. I'm arguing that continuity done well can be a secret sauce that elevates comics and can make them more enjoyable than movies and tv shows. I believe it's a big reason comics got as popular as they were and old comics exploded in value in the late 80s early 90s.
The Harbinger wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:01:54 am Another thing for successful rebooting, I've come to the opinion that comics in general hurt from continuity. A huge barrier to entry for Liefeld's Image run was how everything referenced a happening in another Image Comic, and it seems like comics all started adopting that mindset. Besides bad stories, I'm not sure how you get new readers picking up these comics since they have no idea what is going on. I made a similar comparison with the current Harbinger series where I chuckled at the thought of a dad bringing home Harbinger #5 to his kid to get him interested in comics. No chance Valiant has converted a single new reader onto comics in later years.
Certainly we've all been turned off by continuity done bad. Citing Liefeld is interesting because I think the Image revolution and that mentality is where a lot of things shifted and many basics of comic storytelling techniques were tossed out the window for good. So much continuity done bad since the 90s is why it has such a negative connotation these days. When you say continuity now people think of constant referencing of every obscure event from the past that just seems to be a crutch instead of actually telling a good story. I agree that's rampant and it sucks, if that's all continuity is then I'm with you on getting rid of it.

The counter point is continuity done well. It's not about constant referencing trivialities or being inaccessible. It's about making the episodic story as accessible as an episode of Batman the animated series while at the same time being part of a much larger narrative where things that happen have consequences and carry over from each story. A delicate balancing act for sure. The best examples imo are Marvel 60s-80s and Valiant 91-92(3?). The whole idea was that you could pick up a Harbinger 5 and it would give you everything you needed to know to enjoy it and hook you while still being part of the larger narrative.

One of my first comics was ASM 89 (through Marvel tales reprint) and even though it was the middle chapter of a 3 issue Doc Ock story, it gave me everything I needed to know about who the characters were and what the story was to love it and be hooked. I've been reading Captain America by Mark Gruenwald and he is a master of it. He's sorta known as a continuity nerd, but the issues aren't full of asterisks and references to obscure things. Just solid adventure stories told within the context of a well researched Marvel universe.

I was looking for another quote, but this one is good too, from Sean Howe's Marvel Comics The Untold Story:
'Todd McFarlane never liked the idea of editors, and when the hands-on Danny Fingeroth replaced the laissez-faire Jim Salicrup as his boss on Spider-Man , McFarlane absolutely hated it. “You sell a million, I’ll listen to you,” he told Fingeroth. “If I can turn in 22 blank pages and the kids buy a million copies, who cares how comic books have been done for the past 50 years? I don’t care that there used to be words or pictures—if the kids are buying a million copies, then they’re happy, I’m happy and you’re selling comic books.” '

He's not lying, those guys were a huge fad and comics have always had an element of fad culture to it. Those guys created a huge counter movement away from the Gruenwald-type meat and potatoes comic book storytelling and comics have been chasing that fad ever since. But what happens when the fad fades away and the kid just has a meaningless comic full of well rendered pinups? He moves on to more interesting things. Gruenwald would never sell a million an issue but his type of exciting, heroic adventure stories told in a light-handed continuity can create solid lifelong readers.

TLDR - Bad continuity is bad, can be worse than no continuity at all. However, good continuity done well can elevate comics above movie type stand-alone storytelling.

Sorry for the novel, I appreciate the discussion.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

One more point - Bad continuity makes it so you have to get the other issues to even understand the story (who the characters are, what the situation is, what the motivations are). This is also a symptom of post-Image/Bendis/Warren Ellis decompressed storytelling. With less panels per page, multiple splash pages, and slower pace there's just not the room to re-establish everything each issue and still move things forward. That's why when you pick up a random comic today you can't understand what's going on.

Good continuity makes it so you want to get the other issues because you enjoyed the reading experience, you liked the characters, you understood what was going on and you just want more stories like that and to get to know the characters more. Just like ASM 89, I could read it over and over and get lots of enjoyment out of it. I still really wanted to read the other parts, but I didn't need them to enjoy the issue on it's own.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Joshua »

I just feel like I have met a lot of fans who got into Valiant in the 2012 to now years and don't really like the older material. They don't know what it's like when the original titles came out and have a lot of opinions to go off of, which mostly are that people say everything post-Shooter is terrible. Why would anyone want to jump into a relaunch so many years later that piggybacks on books that they've been told aren't good? Would it have helped the line or hurt it? I think that Dinesh and Warren did the best thing and just recreated everything so everyone had the better first floor to come in on.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

Joshua wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:09:26 am I just feel like I have met a lot of fans who got into Valiant in the 2012 to now years and don't really like the older material. They don't know what it's like when the original titles came out and have a lot of opinions to go off of, which mostly are that people say everything post-Shooter is terrible. Why would anyone want to jump into a relaunch so many years later that piggybacks on books that they've been told aren't good? Would it have helped the line or hurt it? I think that Dinesh and Warren did the best thing and just recreated everything so everyone had the better first floor to come in on.
Thanks for the input, valid points in the 'No' column.
Why would anyone want to jump into a relaunch so many years later that piggybacks on books that they've been told aren't good?
Despite the quality deteriorating rapidly as time went on, the one thing that VH1 achieved (for a short time) was a cultural relevancy (within comics at least). They were the hottest thing going for a period of time. The whole reason the speculator bubble got so hot was that people were trying out the comics and enjoying them, then wanting to get the earlier issues to read them. The natural way that comics gain value.

Also 10-15 years after VH1 ended, there was still a dedicated fandom who collected all the comics, questionable quality or not. Find another non big 2 comic universe that had that. Atlas, Charlton, New Universe, Ultraverse, etc. etc. all had some fans during and some afterwards. But nothing close to what Valiant had, or that strong so many years later. Those early comics really struck a chord and the post-Unity stuff, while obviously not of the same caliber, at least was distinctive and mostly coherent as a universe until Birthquake.

So to me this circles back to my original question, now that time has passed and VEI is more or less currently a 'dead universe', which version of Valiant is the definitive version? I would argue in every case it's the VH1 versions. Not only because of subjective 'quality', but also because it broke through into the cultural consciousness in a way that hasn't been done outside of the Big 2. But these things are opinion and other people may think differently.

I wasn't meaning to stir up the VEI vs VH1 hornet's nest, but I guess the question itself makes that inevitable. Truth is most of the hardcore VH1 fans have moved on to other things or converted to VEI fans. This is partly the problem though, by doing a hard reboot of a universe with a dedicated fandom it inevitably has to either supplant it fully or become another 'iteration'. If the original universe had been incorporated fully or partially, that dichotomy wouldn't have to exist.

There's no good reason (in my mind) that the Spider aliens had to become the Vine, other than to change things just to seem 'different'. If they really wanted to do something similar but different, the Vine could have been a subspecies (or a rival species) to the Spider aliens. It's just fiction, there's a million ways they could've done basically the same stories they wanted to tell and not negate the original universe.

I guess I'm just interested in where the fandom goes from here. Thanks for the discussion, as usual.

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Ryan
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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

Re: Post-Unity VH1

I know I said 80-85% trash, but that was a bit harsh. The high standard set by the early issues makes it a tough comparison, but there is a lot of entertainment to be had in post Unity and a few classics. A&A 0-12 is the definitive run, Hall's Shadowman is great, Turok by Truman, Rags, and Gulacy has some very good moments, Bloodshot has a bunch of solid issues, Eternal Warrior same, Harbinger up to 25 is solid to very good. That's already a good chunk and I'm sure there's more.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

However even the good post-Unity stories lacked the attention to detail that really set pre-Unity apart. They felt more and more like an average Image or Marvel comic until Birthquake went full Image. As the comics got worse, they also got better at hyping themselves. There was an enormous amount of hype coming off of Unity, and they went all out on hyping every new title or event as the next biggest thing ever. The problem with huge hype is that people expect a huge payoff, and when the stories deliver something average at best people feel even more disappointed. I think that's why a lot of average comic fans from the time (like the Kayfabers) have such a jaded view toward Valiant. They heard all the hype then tried out a post-Unity issue and found it weak at best.

The biggest hype offender in my recollection was the Visitor. Months before the release there were constant teaser ads and hype about who is the Visitor, mysterious alien visitor that promised to tie into everything. Then when it's finally revealed in a sloppy looking printer error issue that somehow got approved, it's just some nonsensical future Pete Stanchek with a barcode tattoo? An obvious last minute cop out. Who knows what the original plan was or even if there was one. The classic overhype and underdeliver, one of post-Unity Valiant's best skills.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Joshua »

Ryan wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:05:35 pm However even the good post-Unity stories lacked the attention to detail that really set pre-Unity apart. They felt more and more like an average Image or Marvel comic until Birthquake went full Image. As the comics got worse, they also got better at hyping themselves. There was an enormous amount of hype coming off of Unity, and they went all out on hyping every new title or event as the next biggest thing ever. The problem with huge hype is that people expect a huge payoff, and when the stories deliver something average at best people feel even more disappointed. I think that's why a lot of average comic fans from the time (like the Kayfabers) have such a jaded view toward Valiant. They heard all the hype then tried out a post-Unity issue and found it weak at best.

The biggest hype offender in my recollection was the Visitor. Months before the release there were constant teaser ads and hype about who is the Visitor, mysterious alien visitor that promised to tie into everything. Then when it's finally revealed in a sloppy looking printer error issue that somehow got approved, it's just some nonsensical future Pete Stanchek with a barcode tattoo? An obvious last minute cop out. Who knows what the original plan was or even if there was one. The classic overhype and underdeliver, one of post-Unity Valiant's best skills.
Kevin Vanhook is pretty talkative on social media so if you have a Facebook account, he'd probably answer your comments about whether the plan was for Peter to be the Visitor or if they had something prior. I've never heard of there being another character set to be the Visitor.

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Ryan »

Joshua wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:34:45 pm
Ryan wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:05:35 pm However even the good post-Unity stories lacked the attention to detail that really set pre-Unity apart. They felt more and more like an average Image or Marvel comic until Birthquake went full Image. As the comics got worse, they also got better at hyping themselves. There was an enormous amount of hype coming off of Unity, and they went all out on hyping every new title or event as the next biggest thing ever. The problem with huge hype is that people expect a huge payoff, and when the stories deliver something average at best people feel even more disappointed. I think that's why a lot of average comic fans from the time (like the Kayfabers) have such a jaded view toward Valiant. They heard all the hype then tried out a post-Unity issue and found it weak at best.

The biggest hype offender in my recollection was the Visitor. Months before the release there were constant teaser ads and hype about who is the Visitor, mysterious alien visitor that promised to tie into everything. Then when it's finally revealed in a sloppy looking printer error issue that somehow got approved, it's just some nonsensical future Pete Stanchek with a barcode tattoo? An obvious last minute cop out. Who knows what the original plan was or even if there was one. The classic overhype and underdeliver, one of post-Unity Valiant's best skills.
Kevin Vanhook is pretty talkative on social media so if you have a Facebook account, he'd probably answer your comments about whether the plan was for Peter to be the Visitor or if they had something prior. I've never heard of there being another character set to be the Visitor.
Right on, it could have been their plan the whole time. I'm just saying as a reader, it felt rushed and like it didn't make sense or worth the hype. If he was future Pete the whole time, why masquerade as an alien? I haven't read those in ages, so maybe there is some sort of grand story that I missed, just going off my memory and this overhyping thing was a pattern those days. No one ever talks about Deathmate, but if you were there at the time the hype for that was off the rails. Then to see what it turned out to be, yikes. Look I'm a fan of those guys, Layton, Vanhook, Hall, even the guys like Grau, Wendel, Saravia, Moretti, I dig all that stuff. The problem is the overhyping and then delivering a rushed product is one of those predatory business practices that comic companies have been using for years that's chased away a lot of the fans/readers. :twocents:

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Re: In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

Post by Oxmyx »

The Harbinger wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:22:02 pm I hate what VEI became in the Antos era, but there were some strong characters that came around (Harada of VEI I think is superior to Harada of VH1). It was good to see the great characters (Sunlight on Snow or Angela Vessel for example) vs the ones that were terrible (Kris, Psi-Lords).
Harbinger, if you're around you might be a good one to ask: what exactly was the Antos era of VEI? I wasn't paying much attention. I didn't buy anything after THE VISITOR and I think that was Fred Peirce who did that.
I've been looking everywhere for the ultra-rare Turok vs Blister issue. Anybody able to help me out?


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