Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

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Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

Was the PINK Harbinger zero mailed at the same time the Children trade was released, or shortly before?

The trade was released end-NOV 1992.

Both the PINK and the BLUE zero issue have an ad to Shadowman #10 that was released in DEC.

Follow-up question. When exactly was the Second Printing of the trade released?

Last not least, is there any difference between the BLUE zero issues of the First and Second Printing (trade)....that would make the 2nd Printing of the BLUE zero the 3rd Printing of the zero issue overall?

Or did they just print another batch and only added the "Second Printing" to the trade's inside cover.

Final questions are not absolute.....

There are 2000 signed copies of the Second Printing (trade and BLUE zero hence 4000 signatures in total; by Shooter).

https://www.ebay.de/itm/202758347353

Were they distributed by National Comic Services, Ltd. individually, or also bagged together?

I cannot find any pictures and sales showing them bagged.
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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

Ha, searching google for "harbinger pink envelope" brought me right back here....

viewtopic.php?t=47933

So the PINK one was shipped between end of 1992 and beginning of 1993.

Didn't the coupons say it would be released/mailed in June 1992? (Another question)

....

Yes, it did....still does.

What took Valiant so long?

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by geocarr »

IIRC, the Harbinger TPB 2nd print did not come with the zero issue at all. Hopefully someone else can either confirm or correct.
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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

geocarr wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:25:06 am
IIRC, the Harbinger TPB 2nd print did not come with the zero issue at all. Hopefully someone else can either confirm or correct.
Right, as it wasn't bagged at all. My bad, I keep forgetting this. facepalm

That offer on eBay confused me a lot right there.


I'd still like to know if anyone had mailed in those coupons and received a PINK zero before the release of the first printing of the trade or did everybody receive their copies DEC92/JAN93?

And when exactly the second printing of the trade was released?

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Rai-fan »

From some quick online research, sources note both Harbinger 0 (pink) and the trade paperback (1st, bagged with Harbinger 0 blue) were released in December, although the pink version has "Feb. 1993" in the indicia.

This makes sense in terms of being contemporaneous with Shadowman # 10 or so, because while it's been >25 years, my memory is that Harbinger 0 (pink) was *incredibly* late. As in, Unity (Harbinger 8-9) had already come and gone and Valiant was incredibly hot, yet still no one had received Harbinger 0 (pink).

Wondering if anyone has old issues of Wizard or Previews where they could confirm a December release date for the trade.

FWIW, I don't think it matters which *actually* came first, as the pink is the rare one, even if it may have been released at the same time or slightly after the Harbinger trade and blue version in reality.

I've had this argument before re. whether Archer & Armstrong 0 gold is the "first" Valiant gold book, because Archer & Armstrong 0 came out a month before EW # 1.

It doesn't matter - the three books -- in practical terms Archer & Armstrong 0 gold, EW # 1 gold flat and EW # 1 gold embossed were all distributed by Valiant at the same time. While the *regular* versions of the books shipped a few weeks apart, the gold versions were all limited incentives that hit the market at the same time.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/ ... icid=88317

The release date for the trade is set to the last week of NOV 1992 there.

I don't mind whichever came out first or second either, however, I'm still curios whether or not someone might have received a copy before the trade release but I guess this rather wasn't the case.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by ckb »

At the time TPB's were ordered through the Diamond STAR system. Which was different than for comics. It was meant for items that could always be kept in print. You could order from STAR through previews, I think. And my best recollection is that you were actually told on the order form and in the blurb about it that you were ordering a second print.

I recall this because I was, at the time, a little miffed that I was sitting on dozens of the first print...Needed to get the bluebirds!...and the OCD completionist in me was forced to order the second printing. I believe I got two. One is what ended up in the only CGC 9.8 slab that recently made the rounds.
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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Ryan »

It's unfortunate that Harbinger 0 was such a lackluster issue. It was obviously a post-Unity production (unlike Magnus 0 which was produced before Mag 1, probably a year or so before it was released), and it seems like some of Lapham's first work as a writer. He gets much better as we see in Stray Bullets, but for such a hugely hyped issue (at the time) it's pretty weak. A while back I read the 20 page Harbinger treatment on Shooter's website, and although some of the details don't line up with the published Harbinger, I found it a much more satisfying 'O' issue type of story for Pete and Harbinger.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

ckb wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:42:10 pm
At the time TPB's were ordered through the Diamond STAR system. Which was different than for comics. It was meant for items that could always be kept in print. You could order from STAR through previews, I think. And my best recollection is that you were actually told on the order form and in the blurb about it that you were ordering a second print.

I recall this because I was, at the time, a little miffed that I was sitting on dozens of the first print...Needed to get the bluebirds!...and the OCD completionist in me was forced to order the second printing. I believe I got two. Once is what ended up in the only CGC 9.8 slab that recently made the rounds.
Right, like it says in Greg's Price Guide (only) the blue bird was "exclusive to Diamond's Star System backissue program."

Would be really nice to know in what ratio they distributed this.

A few years back, Greg's Price Guide was still listing the number of printed copies.

Reg Black Bird - 100k
Blue Bird - 35k
Second Printing - 15k

This suggest that ordering 5 copies would have scored you at least 1 blue bird (on average); unless you're the most unlucky person.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Rai-fan »

Ryan wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:12:08 pm
It's unfortunate that Harbinger 0 was such a lackluster issue. It was obviously a post-Unity production (unlike Magnus 0 which was produced before Mag 1, probably a year or so before it was released), and it seems like some of Lapham's first work as a writer. He gets much better as we see in Stray Bullets, but for such a hugely hyped issue (at the time) it's pretty weak. A while back I read the 20 page Harbinger treatment on Shooter's website, and although some of the details don't line up with the published Harbinger, I found it a much more satisfying 'O' issue type of story for Pete and Harbinger.
This - I remember being really excited to read Harbinger 0 (blue) from the trade paperback and being shocked by how short - and weak - it was.

Really disappointing for what should have been an iconic issue.

It's never really resonated with me the way 1-7 did, or even 1-11, if I'm being honest (since the book was amazing through Unity and the introduction of the HARD Corps).

Especially compared to the excitement of say...Magnus 0 or Unity 0 -- even EW 1, Harbinger 0 was an incredible missed opportunity.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

Ryan wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:12:08 pm
It's unfortunate that Harbinger 0 was such a lackluster issue. It was obviously a post-Unity production (unlike Magnus 0 which was produced before Mag 1, probably a year or so before it was released), and it seems like some of Lapham's first work as a writer. He gets much better as we see in Stray Bullets, but for such a hugely hyped issue (at the time) it's pretty weak. A while back I read the 20 page Harbinger treatment on Shooter's website, and although some of the details don't line up with the published Harbinger, I found it a much more satisfying 'O' issue type of story for Pete and Harbinger.
This one?

http://jimshooter.server275.com/wp-cont ... atment.pdf

Not sure when Shooter wrote it and what for? It reads more like a movie script than the script for the zero issue.

The class room scene at the beginning--zooming in and out of Pete's mind--is awesome and it seems as if Dysart might have read this script, too, and nicely picked up the hearing voices thing. It can't be coincidence! I love Shooter's Harbinger story but what Dysart has done with it is exceptional.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

Rai-fan wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:02:30 am
Ryan wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:12:08 pm
It's unfortunate that Harbinger 0 was such a lackluster issue. It was obviously a post-Unity production (unlike Magnus 0 which was produced before Mag 1, probably a year or so before it was released), and it seems like some of Lapham's first work as a writer. He gets much better as we see in Stray Bullets, but for such a hugely hyped issue (at the time) it's pretty weak. A while back I read the 20 page Harbinger treatment on Shooter's website, and although some of the details don't line up with the published Harbinger, I found it a much more satisfying 'O' issue type of story for Pete and Harbinger.
This - I remember being really excited to read Harbinger 0 (blue) from the trade paperback and being shocked by how short - and weak - it was.

Really disappointing for what should have been an iconic issue.

It's never really resonated with me the way 1-7 did, or even 1-11, if I'm being honest (since the book was amazing through Unity and the introduction of the HARD Corps).

Especially compared to the excitement of say...Magnus 0 or Unity 0 -- even EW 1, Harbinger 0 was an incredible missed opportunity.
After AA #0, Magnus #0, Unity #0 and the epic "Blood of Heroes", I can see, how everybody had some really high expectations for this but it's still a decent story and prequel to the debut issue. After "Blood of Heroes" it's also quite obvious why this story feels rather short.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by greg »

Sunlight on Snow wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:01:42 am
A few years back, Greg's Price Guide was still listing the number of printed copies.

Reg Black Bird - 100k
Blue Bird - 35k
Second Printing - 15k

This suggest that ordering 5 copies would have scored you at least 1 blue bird (on average); unless you're the most unlucky person.
My estimates for 100K, 35K, and 15K, were based on Top Selling Comics at the time, but I'm pretty sure graphic novels had a different list... or they were rated by dollars not by units. So, it's possible those are the correct numbers, but it's also possible the numbers for the trade paperbacks are lower (in a different sales reporting system).

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Ryan »

Sunlight on Snow wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:40:55 am
Ryan wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:12:08 pm
It's unfortunate that Harbinger 0 was such a lackluster issue. It was obviously a post-Unity production (unlike Magnus 0 which was produced before Mag 1, probably a year or so before it was released), and it seems like some of Lapham's first work as a writer. He gets much better as we see in Stray Bullets, but for such a hugely hyped issue (at the time) it's pretty weak. A while back I read the 20 page Harbinger treatment on Shooter's website, and although some of the details don't line up with the published Harbinger, I found it a much more satisfying 'O' issue type of story for Pete and Harbinger.
This one?

http://jimshooter.server275.com/wp-cont ... atment.pdf

Not sure when Shooter wrote it and what for? It reads more like a movie script than the script for the zero issue.

The class room scene at the beginning--zooming in and out of Pete's mind--is awesome and it seems as if Dysart might have read this script, too, and nicely picked up the hearing voices thing. It can't be coincidence! I love Shooter's Harbinger story but what Dysart has done with it is exceptional.
Yup that's the one. From what I recall it is a movie treatment that Shooter worked on before Valiant and then used as a template once Valiant started. Gonna have to read it again, I just remember wishing Harbinger 0 was more like it.
It's hard to overstate how hot and hyped Harbinger was for that brief moment of time. I think Shooter and Lapham (and Dixon) made some magic there that was all too brief. In hindsight I also think they made a mistake by killing Torque in issue 6. He was the most nuanced character and the way he played off the rest of the team was a huge factor in what made those early issues really work on a deeper level than a typical superhero team book.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by mrwoogieman »

The Harada origin story from the coupons themselves was way better than Harbinger 0!
:hm:

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Ryan »

mrwoogieman wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:46:40 pm
The Harada origin story from the coupons themselves was way better than Harbinger 0!
Quoted for truth.

Not to derail this thread further, but with Valiant's 30th anniversary coming next year, imagine how cool it would be if they would put out nice facsimile editions of some of the early classics. Maybe they don't have the original scans to do proper reprints? It seems like all of the VEI reprints have been re-colored? Well one can dream anyway

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

Yeah, as usual, the thread isn't about the original question anymore.

When did the Second Printing (and the Blue Bird for that matter) get published?

No exact date is needed but maybe a month (and a year) would be nice.

There is only so much you can still google and find out about the Star System. Is it correct to assume you needed the Summer (or Holiday) "Backlist" catalogue to order the Blue Bird or could you order it through your LCS at any given time? Does anyone still have a copy of said "Backlist" catalogue (from 1993, I guess) and could look up the blurb about the Harbinger trade?

Ideally that someone also has a copy of the 1994 catalogue and could look up the blurbs for the XO and Rai trades in blue dress.

I don't wanna sound obsessed about this information but it's really interesting since nobody seems to remember that.

Unfortunately I didn't get in contact with Valiant/Acclaim before the Turok game for the N64.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

greg wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:53:19 am
Sunlight on Snow wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:01:42 am
A few years back, Greg's Price Guide was still listing the number of printed copies.

Reg Black Bird - 100k
Blue Bird - 35k
Second Printing - 15k

This suggest that ordering 5 copies would have scored you at least 1 blue bird (on average); unless you're the most unlucky person.
My estimates for 100K, 35K, and 15K, were based on Top Selling Comics at the time, but I'm pretty sure graphic novels had a different list... or they were rated by dollars not by units. So, it's possible those are the correct numbers, but it's also possible the numbers for the trade paperbacks are lower (in a different sales reporting system).
The Harbinger trade was the second best selling of 1992 in units, and the best selling in dollars.

The XO and Rai trades were the third and sixth best selling in 1993.

I don't mind the 100k. The question is how did you come up with the 35k for the "blue" trades? It seems to be a rather high estimate and ratio; especially for the other 2 trades.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by ckb »

All the blue trades were incentive variants - you had to order a lot of regular trades to get one. STAR was an ordering system for retailers only. Diamond only took orders solely from retailers, which is why I became a "fake" one while I was in college, with an online-only "storefront" (USENET at the time). But really it was all for me. Took some convincing, and setting up all the state government business BS, believe me.

Of course you could also have retailer friends who passed through your orders to Diamond.

Anyway my best recollection is that they did it differently back then. There wasn't a line on the order form for the incentives, they just showed up based on how many regular ones you bought. I remember having big piles of the Harbinger TPB. 20? I normally would have ordered enough to get two Blues but the cover price on that thing was so high I may have only gotten one.

Wish I had a better handle on it for you. A Previews collection from 91-94 would help!

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

20 black for 2 blue ones basically is a 1:10 ratio, meaning there's maybe 10k blue birds.

Maybe 15k tops for Harbinger, 10k for XO, and even less for Rai.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

ckb wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:41:10 am
Wish I had a better handle on it for you. A Previews collection from 91-94 would help!
After reading this I actually tried to find them on eBay. Well.....

Today I received 46 Advance Comics catalogs from end of 91 to early 96. :lol:

(And as bonus 1 issue of CIMOC; a Spanish anthology like 2000 AD.)

According to Advance the Second Printing of the Harbinger trade was shipped in DEC 92.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by greg »

Sunlight on Snow wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:39:51 pm
According to Advance the Second Printing of the Harbinger trade was shipped in DEC 92.
Interesting... according to the (almost 20 year old) shipping schedule on this site, the Harbinger trade 2nd print didn't arrive until May 1993.
http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/shipping.pdf

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

greg wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:27:48 pm
Sunlight on Snow wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:39:51 pm
According to Advance the Second Printing of the Harbinger trade was shipped in DEC 92.
Interesting... according to the (almost 20 year old) shipping schedule on this site, the Harbinger trade 2nd print didn't arrive until May 1993.
http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/shipping.pdf
OMG, you're right. It is listed for print in MAY 93.

It's not even mentioned in DEC 92. I have no real excuse and explanation for confusing the numbers other than I had just come home from my daily running routine and maybe I should have taken a shower first. I was also a bit overwhelmed by all those catalogs.

Here's the solicit:

AC #53 for MAY 93 (I double triple checked it now!)
HARBINGER Trade Paperback $9.95
Shipping from Ringer
Color. 2nd printing. Shooter/Lapham/Dixon
Now available in a second printing. The popular trade paperback collecting HARBINGER #1-4 in a perfect bound edition. Does not include a copy of HARBINGER #0 like the 1st printing did!
MAY 93 was advertised as X-O Month: TPB, #19, #0, Figure Pin, Icon Pin, and the XO Ring (for $25!!!).

On the cover it says: "THIS MONTH! Valiant's X-O Manowar #10 by...."

But it's #0 & #19 not #10. The interview with Bob Layton (about XO, Dr. Mirage, and Deathmate) then starts on page 10.

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by greg »

I like that the original solicitation for Harbinger trade 2nd print specifically says "Does not include a copy of HARBINGER #0 like the 1st printing did!"

That's pretty conclusive, if that's been a mystery. It's unlikely that there's a 2nd print Harbinger trade in a polybag, since there wouldn't have been anything else in the bag. :thumb:

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Re: Q's regarding Harbinger #0 (1992)

Post by Sunlight on Snow »

greg wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:56:08 am
I like that the original solicitation for Harbinger trade 2nd print specifically says "Does not include a copy of HARBINGER #0 like the 1st printing did!"

That's pretty conclusive, if that's been a mystery. It's unlikely that there's a 2nd print Harbinger trade in a polybag, since there wouldn't have been anything else in the bag. :thumb:
Yes, and it is very unlikely they bagged those 2000 copies of Harbinger #0's and Second Printings after they had been signed and certificated.

Here's the solicitation for the First Printing from NOV 92:
HARBINGER Trade Paperback
$9.95
-----------------------------------
Softcover.
The collected HARBINGER #s 1-4 in a trade paperback edition. EXTRA! Shrinkwrapped with all first editions of this first-ever trade paperback from Valiant will be an individual copy of HARBINGER #0, while different than the deluxe copy being sent out for the coupon redemption program, will nonetheless contain the entire storyline at no extra charge! Recommended.
Solving the other part of the mystery. They were actually sent out in NOV/DEC, too.

I like those catalogs. It's fun seeing the solicitations and old ads.


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