The Final Witness

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BugsySig
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by BugsySig »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
BugsySig wrote:Man are you guys a bunch of women-haters. :lol:

I mean, if there’s 4 main characters I would assume at least 1 will be a woman and 1 would be a minority (heaven forbid there’s a female minority!). It’s called being representative. Maybe not of their readers, but of the general populace. 50% are women or most of us wouldn’t be here. Almost 50% are minorities in America. So if people started randomly getting superpowers, about half would be women and half would be minorities. Get over it. If you have an issue with the work creators are producing, or a lack of resume for those that are hired, that’s fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t something else going on if you have an issue with females, minorities, or female minorities being represented in your superhero comic books. It’s not that those characters aren’t working, it’s that the books have sucked for the most part and/or have been marketed terribly. Dysart wrote almost exclusively women and minorities (and aliens and robots) in Imperium and no one said *SQUEE* because he’s an awesome writer. At least hopefully that was the reason and it wasn’t because he’s a white male so he’s beyond criticism. Blah blah blah Heather Antos blah blah blah liberal agenda.

End rant.
I think you’ve encapsulated Valiant’s problems as they seem to share your mindset. This ‘box ticking’ approach to a business is insane. Imagine someone coming along and telling a Vegetarian restaurant owner that they have to sell meat because X amount of the population eat meat! Oh and also there has to be X amount of Indian dishes, X amount of Chinese dishes etc etc because X amount of the population is this and that. Like any business, the priority should be to provide goods that your customers want. No one is saying Valiant shouldn’t experiment and try to bring in other readers, but it seems like that’s all they have done since the new crew took over.

Every book they put out doesn’t need to (forcibly) represent diversity, that’s not their job, their job is to make books that people want to and will actually buy. Nobody hates women or minorities that’s a silly straw man argument, but giving the customer what appeals to the customer, not asking them to pay $3.99 for some lesson on what you think they should like.

Maybe you need to get over the fact that most comic book readers are white and male. People just want entertainment not lessons.
I see your point and it relates to mine. The thing is, it wouldn’t appear as “box checking” if the final products were of high quality.

And I am not pro “forced” diversity at all, just that if you are creating new characters, based on our world, realistically they would be more diverse than what has traditionally been portrayed.

What I am is anti comments that seem to be along the lines of, “Great, all they need is another (fill in minority, gender or sexuality here).” As if that is the ultimate identifier as to a) whether or not they will read/buy the book or b) the quality of the product.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Chiclo »

BugsySig wrote:I see your point and it relates to mine. The thing is, it wouldn’t appear as “box checking” if the final products were of high quality.
This is an interesting point - is box-checking only offensive when paired with mediocrity?

Were we presented with a diverse team, with a diversity that would satisfy most of the adherents of critical race theory/intersectionalism, that was a good story and managed to avoid preachy finger-wagging, would I be bothered? Probably not. If we can define a character by his brokenness and his shortcomings, and not by his fleshly vices, then any remaining focus on diversity is as much window-dressing as it is box-checking. Maybe some folks feel that falls short of what they want their art to do, but moving that focus often dilutes the quality of the end product.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Maybe you need to get over the fact that most comic book readers are white and male. People just want entertainment not lessons.
this Bro is an interesting specimen for sure, and there are at least 4 things absolutely telling about him with these 2 sentences alone. Miraculously, they are all very likely completely invisible to him!

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Dallow Spicer1
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

BugsySig wrote:
What I am is anti comments that seem to be along the lines of, “Great, all they need is another (fill in minority, gender or sexuality here).” As if that is the ultimate identifier as to a) whether or not they will read/buy the book or b) the quality of the product.
Fair point and I don’t think anyone is talking about boycotting those books if they’re getting rave reviews (none of them are). Yes, if Dysart was writing all of those character l’d almost certainly be buying them. But here’s the crux of the frustration with current Valiant. I can imagine creators sitting around or pitching ideas and as soon as they come up with a concept Heather Antos is like “yeah, great idea...but let’s make sure the cast is diverse and the main characters is [insert flavour of the month]”. This should not be a consideration IMO. Valiant had a decent balance of all of this in the Dinesh era, the current crew take it too far.

And, if you’ve been reading the books in the last 12 months then it’s fair to say women have been disproportionately represented when you consider male/female readership ratio v titles. I put money down for 4 issues Forgotten Queen, 11 issues of Livewire and 5 issues of Punk Mambo (or was it 4), so nearly $80 worth of (mediocre to poor) product. Did we get a ton more female or minority readers latching onto Valiant? Sales don’t suggest that happened so why as a business are they still making this a priority?

My view is entertaining the paying customer should be the only priority and it doesn’t feel like it is at the moment.

I actually think the concept of crime noir could be an excellent addition to the Valiant U if done correctly, however, based on Antos’ track record and who she has brought to Valiant (her Rolodex is where they go for all the ‘new writers’ according to Robert Meyers) I don’t have much confidence. I’ll wait to see who the creative team is first.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

AnarchoMambo wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Maybe you need to get over the fact that most comic book readers are white and male. People just want entertainment not lessons.
this Bro is an interesting specimen for sure, and there are at least 4 things absolutely telling about him with these 2 sentences alone. Miraculously, they are all very likely completely invisible to him!
The first sentence is just a fact (US comic books of course) and the second is an opinion which seems consistent with a lot of the woke films flopping at the box office as well as Valiant sales 2019 ...bro

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

Dood, your snap responses are great. You put perhaps even less thought into them, thereby opening up new glimpses into your thought processes. Keep it up. Any other clarity you’d like to share?

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Dallow Spicer1
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

AnarchoMambo wrote:Dood, your snap responses are great. You put perhaps even less thought into them, thereby opening up new glimpses into your thought processes. Keep it up. Any other clarity you’d like to share?
Not sure I can be any clearer although I have noted your consistent ability to either deliberately skew what I say or take convenient snap shots to fit what you’d prefer me to say to fit your narrative ...just saying dood

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The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

Aw, darn, snap rage is not your forte either, is it? But then again you’re not truly stupid, because it is clear that as you hyperventilated your last message, you actually admit to tipping your hand a bit much in the original quotation. Delusions of grandeur might help you to propound these complex models that increasingly no longer fit reality. But as you share your thoughts thusly, it’s delusions of persecution that create rivals out of people like me, I guess. I look forward to your reply, Bubs. Quick, don’t think, hit respond right away!

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

AnarchoMambo wrote:Aw, darn, snap rage is not your forte either, is it? But then again you’re not truly stupid, because it is clear that as you hyperventilated your last message, you actually admit to tipping your hand a bit much in the original quotation. Delusions of grandeur might help you to propound these complex models that increasingly no longer fit reality. But as you share your thoughts thusly, it’s delusions of persecution that create rivals out of people like me, I guess. I look forward to your reply, Bubs. Quick, don’t think, hit respond right away!
:lol: You’re my new favourite board member (sorry KJ). I think I prefer bubs to dood or bro, there’s a Wolverine vibe to it so can we stick to that?

Ps I’ll try and keep the snap ragin and hyperventilatin to a bare minimum!

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The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

Not so fast, Jerky. As you wisely beat your tactical retreat, know this: dotards like you should not get too chummy. You think it’s cool to minimize this abject beat-down by calling me your favorite anything, know that you are leaving a paper trail here that folks can remember. Go ahead n’ look everybody. I will reserve substantive discussions on the subject that originally drew my ire for someone far more capable of handling a nuanced discussion on the matter. When challenged on the mismatch of his flimsy theories with reality, this guy obviously just makes empty threats, then tries to go meta-, and ultimately tries to be your friend to save what little face he has.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by syzhang28 »

AnarchoMambo wrote:Not so fast, Jerky. As you wisely beat your tactical retreat, know this: dotards like you should not get too chummy. You think it’s cool to minimize this abject beat-down by calling me your favorite anything, know that you are leaving a paper trail here that folks can remember. Go ahead n’ look everybody. I will reserve substantive discussions on the subject that originally drew my ire for someone far more capable of handling a nuanced discussion on the matter. When challenged on the mismatch of his flimsy theories with reality, this guy obviously just makes empty threats, then tries to go meta-, and ultimately tries to be your friend to save what little face he has.
I gotta say it sounds like you keep posting that he's dumb and he keeps posting his opinions based on the facts as he understands them. I'm eager to see this discussion play out as it is a good topic but I think it would benefit your cause if you replied with your opinions and facts instead of saying he's dumb for having an opinion.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

AnarchoMambo wrote:Not so fast, Jerky. As you wisely beat your tactical retreat, know this: dotards like you should not get too chummy. You think it’s cool to minimize this abject beat-down by calling me your favorite anything, know that you are leaving a paper trail here that folks can remember. Go ahead n’ look everybody. I will reserve substantive discussions on the subject that originally drew my ire for someone far more capable of handling a nuanced discussion on the matter. When challenged on the mismatch of his flimsy theories with reality, this guy obviously just makes empty threats, then tries to go meta-, and ultimately tries to be your friend to save what little face he has.

:lol: Let me introduce you to my 2 other best friends, ‘sarcasm’ and ‘wit’ :high-five:

Not as keen on the ‘Jerky’, can we put that in the ‘maybe’ pile?

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Dallow Spicer1
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

syzhang28 wrote:
AnarchoMambo wrote:Not so fast, Jerky. As you wisely beat your tactical retreat, know this: dotards like you should not get too chummy. You think it’s cool to minimize this abject beat-down by calling me your favorite anything, know that you are leaving a paper trail here that folks can remember. Go ahead n’ look everybody. I will reserve substantive discussions on the subject that originally drew my ire for someone far more capable of handling a nuanced discussion on the matter. When challenged on the mismatch of his flimsy theories with reality, this guy obviously just makes empty threats, then tries to go meta-, and ultimately tries to be your friend to save what little face he has.
I gotta say it sounds like you keep posting that he's dumb and he keeps posting his opinions based on the facts as he understands them. I'm eager to see this discussion play out as it is a good topic but I think it would benefit your cause if you replied with your opinions and facts instead of saying he's dumb for having an opinion.
He/she/they/ze hasn’t got any actual coherent opinions, he’s another virtue signaller spewing outrage culture and saying things which ‘sound’ right, patting himself on the back and reassuring himself he’s on the ‘right side of history’. I don’t think he even reads the books??

That being said, I think he’s hilarious.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by reddog »

2010 census, despite previous assertions:

Self-identified race Percent of population
White

72.4%
Hispanic and Latino Americans (of any race)

16.3%
Black or African American

12.6%
Asian

4.8%
Native Americans and Alaska Natives

0.9%
Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islanders

0.2%
Two or more races

2.9%
Other 6

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by reddog »

facts as i understand them are not facts, they are vapor. facts are facts. i dont get to have an u derstanding of facts.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by BugsySig »

reddog wrote:2010 census, despite previous assertions:

Self-identified race Percent of population
White

72.4%
Hispanic and Latino Americans (of any race)

16.3%
Black or African American

12.6%
Asian

4.8%
Native Americans and Alaska Natives

0.9%
Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islanders

0.2%
Two or more races

2.9%
Other 6
Thanks for the 9 year old statistics. Got anything that disproves women are 50% of the population while we’re at it? (Shhh...it was actually 50.8% in 2011!)

Btw the census is notoriously poor at that statistic because of how people chose to identify or not. Non-Hispanic whites were 60.7% of the population in 2010. I believe I said almost 1/2. I could argue 40% is almost half.
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The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Maybe you need to get over the fact that most comic book readers are white and male. People just want entertainment not lessons.
Alright, let’s try it then. But only because syzhang asked. And let’s just narrow it down to one thing for simplicity’s sake. And I’m not touching the obvious stuff that doesn’t ever end in agreement around here.

The canon of western literature is absolutely chock full of “entertaining lessons,” and this does not exclude the comics medium. Especially today, to rise above the average, a piece of media absolutely has to be entertaining. But why will the TV adaptation of Preacher probably never have the staying power of Breaking Bad for AMC? I would argue that each is equally entertaining, but Breaking Bad’s entertainment rises to the level of classic, PRECISELY because of the numerous “lessons” to be learned. As a show, it is fully in conversation with the classics of television and perhaps even literature, and might even help to shape our identity.

I would argue that if the Bloodshot movie is merely entertaining, and doesn’t have serious or significant things to say about the bounds of practical science a la Shelley’s Frankenstein, it will be forgotten sooner than you can say Fast and Furious Fourteen.

All things Valiant should always TRY for greater than just entertainment.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by armlessphelan »

But why does the race and gender of a creator matter as long as the story is good? Greg Pak is half Korean, half white and is generally celebrated for his Marvel work. (His Valiant stuff was a bit meh, but I didn't hate it.) Jody Houser is obviously a woman and everyone I talk to loved her run on Faith. Jen Van Meter's run on Dr. Mirage is some of the best comics Valiant ever put out. So clearly having writers who aren't white dudes isn't the issue. It's hiring people who haven't honed their craft.

And even then, Valiant isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel with Mags Visaggio and Vita Ayala. They both have done a fair amount of work for Marvel and DC in recent years. (Disclosure time, I've never read anything Mags has written, and I've only ever read the first trade of Livewire from Vita, so I don't know much about them other than their Twitter personalities, which are abrasive.) And Fred Van Lente has been around since the beginning of Valiant and he writes what is considered to be one of the bigger stinkers from the company, Psi-Lords, and I've never seen anyone call for his dismissal.

There seems to be this idea that you can only have either diversity or quality, and that's just wrong. Or should Christopher Priest not have been allowed to return to finish Q&W because that's just another call for diversity? Criticize Heather Antos all day for not hiring good writers or artists, but stop acting like it's a bad thing to hire minorities to fill those roles. After all, American comic books were created by ethnic minorities, not white dudes.

And for the record, Valiant has always been diverse from (re)launch. The Anni Pada brothers are Persian, and Jack Boniface is half black. Why do they qualify for series and Livewire doesn't when she led Unity, Secret Weapons, and has been around since the beginning of Harbinger's first series?
Manga, comics, who cares? They're pretty much the same thing.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by kjjohanson »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
BugsySig wrote:
What I am is anti comments that seem to be along the lines of, “Great, all they need is another (fill in minority, gender or sexuality here).” As if that is the ultimate identifier as to a) whether or not they will read/buy the book or b) the quality of the product.
Fair point and I don’t think anyone is talking about boycotting those books if they’re getting rave reviews (none of them are). Yes, if Dysart was writing all of those character l’d almost certainly be buying them. But here’s the crux of the frustration with current Valiant. I can imagine creators sitting around or pitching ideas and as soon as they come up with a concept Heather Antos is like “yeah, great idea...but let’s make sure the cast is diverse and the main characters is [insert flavour of the month]”. This should not be a consideration IMO. Valiant had a decent balance of all of this in the Dinesh era, the current crew take it too far.
At least we're all clear now that your objects are based on what you're imagining is happening.
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by kjjohanson »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:And, if you’ve been reading the books in the last 12 months then it’s fair to say women have been disproportionately represented when you consider male/female readership ratio v titles. I put money down for 4 issues Forgotten Queen, 11 issues of Livewire and 5 issues of Punk Mambo (or was it 4), so nearly $80 worth of (mediocre to poor) product. Did we get a ton more female or minority readers latching onto Valiant? Sales don’t suggest that happened so why as a business are they still making this a priority?
If Livewire and Doctor Mirage spent half an issue discussing on how their menstrual cycles are affecting their super-heroeing, then maybe I would agree with you, because I can't relate to that. But I can't recall specific instances where female characters weren't dealing with issues that weren't fairly universal human issues, so what's the problem with characters being female?
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Re: The Final Witness

Post by kjjohanson »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:People just want entertainment not lessons.
Why does this have to be an either/or?
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by lorddunlow »

I'm a guy who thinks plants have souls and might actually be conscious and I spent a large portion of my day worrying about bees dying because marketing firms have convinced legions of vegans and vegan wannabes to consume almond milk to the point of absurdity (don't even get me started on oat milk) and I find this entire discussion tedious and circular...

p. s. I also just realized that our honeybees are an invasive species in North America and that has me doubly upset, so you guys should all take a long look at yourselves and maybe reevaluate your lives because I'm about as crazy as a person can be and I'm like "WTH is going on here?" in this thread.

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The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

lorddunlow wrote:I'm a guy who thinks plants have souls...so you guys should all take a long look at yourselves and maybe reevaluate your lives because I'm about as crazy as a person can be and I'm like "WTH is going on here?" in this thread.
Ohhh-Kay then. So perhaps you’ve got other stuff to worry about then, and frankly it sort of sounds like you might have some other problems too, so find one of those nice threads to post on. We’re having it out with some dude who asked me to be his butt-buddy (see post #34 above) after sharing another tedious bit of nonsense about his pet theories on diversity, and then spouting off a string of incorrect pronouns at me, which I believe was intended as an insult, although I cannot be sure. Think I don’t belong here either? Well, The Final Witness sounds cool to me. Can’t wait to hear more. There, better?

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Re: The Final Witness

Post by lorddunlow »

AnarchoMambo wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:I'm a guy who thinks plants have souls...so you guys should all take a long look at yourselves and maybe reevaluate your lives because I'm about as crazy as a person can be and I'm like "WTH is going on here?" in this thread.
Ohhh-Kay then. So perhaps you’ve got other stuff to worry about then, and frankly it sort of sounds like you might have some other problems too, so find one of those nice threads to post on. We’re having it out with some dude who asked me to be his butt-buddy (see post #34 above) after sharing another tedious bit of nonsense about his pet theories on diversity, and then spouting off a string of incorrect pronouns at me, which I believe was intended as an insult, although I cannot be sure. Think I don’t belong here either? Well, The Final Witness sounds cool to me. Can’t wait to hear more. There, better?
Whoa. I didn't think my comment would set someone off. You must drink almond milk...

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*SQUEE* your science, I have a machine gun.

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AnarchoMambo
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:42:33 pm
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Shadowman
Favorite title: Harbinger
Favorite writer: Jeff Lemire
Favorite artist: Trevor Hairsine
Location: Chicago, Il
The Final Witness

Post by AnarchoMambo »

soy boy is the term of choice, we’ve learned. And it’s well worth the effort to identify an Archie Bunker.


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